All B/R update speculation.

[DragoFireheart]

The same applies to Mind's Desire, but I believe that card is more broken than either Jar or Time Spiral (which I consider to be on about an even footing).

I don't ever want to see Mind's Desire unbanned. I've seen what it can do in the old Extended lists that ran it. It would be utterly insane in Legacy.

The MUD issue brings up a card somebody discussed a while ago, Mana Vault. I've never really thought about what unbanning this card could do, but it would certainly be interesting. Essentially, it's a more broken Grim Monolith - but the latter isn't really that broken at all, so I don't know.

Mana Vault is another card to never be unbanned. It would power mud up too much. Combo decks would find a way to abuse the free mana.

[Gheizen64]

Mana Vault is another card to never be unbanned. It would power mud up too much. Combo decks would find a way to abuse the free mana.

MUD with Vault would still be a mediocre deck with shitty consistence. Even if MUD had access to retarded accelleration, the problem is that in legacy there's no prison piece that effectively hate out the entire meta. Legacy play creatures and land whereas Vintage doesn't (i'm oversimplifying here, point is that a sphere is imba in vintage, not so much in Legacy). Meandeck MUD with Vault available isn't that different from normal Meandeck MUD. It has more often explosive openings, but it's not overly strong and still fold to any decent hate past G1.

Try this for an example:

Meandeck MUD Vault:

Mana: 35 cards, 18 lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Great Furnace
2 Mountain

3 Voltaic Key
3 Mox Opal
3 Grim Monolith
4 Mana Vault
4 Metalworker

Spells: 25
4 Goblin Welder
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Sundering Titan
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Lightning Greaves
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Wurmcoil Engine

Obviously the list isn't perfect, it's a quick variation of the latest MUD that placed in a SGC Open (-diamonds+vault), but you get the idea, the deck isn't broken in the slightest.

On the other hand, AnT would get boosted a lot by Vault. Try this list, it's stupid and it's not tuned at all. The ability to go easily for T2-3 AnT after discard is so good:


Vault AnT:

3 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
4 Duress
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Thoughtseize

4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
2 Island
2 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Mana Vault
2 Chrome Mox

Running 3 AdN isn't so bad when your fundamental turn has been accellerated by half a turn.

[DragoFireheart]

Maybe I over-estimated the power it would have for MUD, but it's better to not have so much free mana sources in this format. Go play vintage for that sort of thing.

[Admiral_Arzar]

MUD with Vault would definitely run Trinisphere IMO, because having Vault dramatically increases the chances of a T1 sphere (or a T1 Lodestone Golem, for that matter). I think the resulting deck would be somewhat different from Meandeck MUD, honestly, but it would still be subject to MUD's infamous inconsistency. As I said earlier, Vault would make Ad Nauseum-based storm combo faster - but it wouldn't really improve its game against blue decks (especially as it would probably replace the un-misstepable Cabal Ritual). For Vault to make storm combo truly insane, they would have to unban Memory Jar at the same time, which is obviously ludicrous. Giving ANT better mana really doesn't do anything to offset the disadvantages of current lists (weak to a bunch of counterspells, insufficient business spells).

Maybe I over-estimated the power it would have for MUD, but it's better to not have so much free mana sources in this format. Go play vintage for that sort of thing.

And I belive that having a lot of mana acceleration available allows more archetypes to be good and makes the format more interesting (up to a point, too much of a good thing is still too much), but you probably already know that my philosophy of the format is quite different from yours. Personally, I believe Mana Vault to be on the same level as Grim Monolith, Dark Ritual, and LED rather than Lotus/Moxen/Crypt/Ring. I don't actually think they will unban it (or Jar, for that matter), but it's still interesting to think of the possibilities. I would have bet money that they wouldn't unban Time Spiral, so there you go.

[lorddotm]

Maybe I over-estimated the power it would have for MUD, but it's better to not have so much free mana sources in this format. Go play vintage for that sort of thing.

You have a hatred of mana acceleration don't you?

Why don't you play Standard then?

[DragoFireheart]

You have a hatred of mana acceleration don't you?

Why don't you play Standard then?

You have a love for mana acceleration don't you?

Why don't you go play Vintage then?

[lorddotm]

You have a love for mana acceleration don't you?

Why don't you go play Vintage then?

You don't actually know my stance on any of this.

I don't actually think LED is an issue. A deck that only sent 3 people into Day 2 at the Grand Prix is not exactly an issue. Legacy is a format with Dark Ritual, LED, Lotus Petal, etc. Get over it. Much like I get over the fact that Standard is a format without those, and that Vintage is a fun format until you remind me of Workshop. I don't think having insane amounts of mana acceleration is a good thing, but most 1 shot mana acceleration is fine (exceptions made to Black Lotus).

That being said, I definitely think Mana Vault should stay banned. Trinisphere is a card. I don't care if it still isn't an amazing deck, I don't want to play against Trinisphere, regardless of what else is going on.

[Admiral_Arzar]

You have a love for mana acceleration don't you?

Why don't you go play Vintage then?

Legacy is an ETERNAL FORMAT bro. It is not "halfway" between vintage and standard, it is not standard with more cards, it is pretty damn close to vintage. You really need to get over your hate for an entire third of the archetypes in the format, and for fast mana, which has been an integral part of BOTH eternal formats since there were eternal formats.

@ Lorddotm: yeah, Workshop kind of shits all over the delicious ice cream that would otherwise be the vintage format.

[Grollub]

There's no chance Hermit Druid and Memory Jar will ever come off the banned list. Combo is an accepted "pillar", but I find it very hard to believe DCI will unban either of the cards, considering just how massive their impact will be.

Jar: Shouldn't really need any explaination really, other than: it's not going to be used along with cute cards like Megrim...

Hermit Druid: 1 card combo. Which just happens to be protected by and immune to Mental Misstep.

@Kikoo: Diminishing Returns would see play if you could cast it off Ritual mana. Jar being colorless is a gigantic advantage.

The only card I could see getting unbanned at the moment would be Mind Twist.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I don't actually think LED is an issue. A deck that only sent 3 people into Day 2 at the Grand Prix is not exactly an issue...

That being said, I definitely think Mana Vault should stay banned. Trinisphere is a card.

Rationalization is the habit of searching for reasons to confirm an already existant belief. For example, consider a study where the subject has to decide whether or not to hire a prospective employee between two candidates, one black and one white. For half the study, the black candidate is better educated but has less work experience. For the other half, the black candidate has more work experience but less education. In both cases the black candidate is less likely to be hired. Why? No one says, "I don't want to hire him because he's black." They point to the fact that the other candidate has the trait that the black candidate doesn't.

And of course this is difficult to parse because some people may have legitimate reasons to lean one way or the other. How to sift those from the study group participants who are merely using that as a crutch, probably unconsciously, to justify a latent bigotry?

Trinisphere.dec is never going to be a good deck in Legacy for reasons that others have already gone over, at least not unless Workshop itself comes off the list.

Saying that Trinisphere decks are scary and LED is a fair card (remember that this also power Dredge) reveals, I think, a mere rationalization of the status quo.

Legacy is an ETERNAL FORMAT bro. It is not "halfway" between vintage and standard, it is not standard with more cards, it is pretty damn close to vintage. You really need to get over your hate for an entire third of the archetypes in the format, and for fast mana, which has been an integral part of BOTH eternal formats since there were eternal formats.

@ Lorddotm: yeah, Workshop kind of shits all over the delicious ice cream that would otherwise be the vintage format.

Unintentional irony is unintentional.

Bro.

[Admiral_Arzar]

*Large quantities of pretentious bullshit*

...

Unintentional irony is unintentional.

Bro.

Your irrational hatred of LED is well-documented at this point, so I'm just going to ignore everything other than that last bit. I don't hate MUD/Workshops - however, anyone who actually thinks that deck is FUN to play against is well...an interesting person (or perhaps an Oath player, lol). I'm not going to walk around saying ZOMG BANZ SHOPS because that would just be absurd - I'm not in the business of trying to kill off whole archetypes just because I don't find playing against them fun. Only WOTC (and apparently a bunch of people here) try and do that *facepalm*.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Your irrational hatred of LED is well-documented at this point, so I'm just going to ignore everything other than that last bit. I don't hate MUD/Workshops - however, anyone who actually thinks that deck is FUN to play against is well...an interesting person (or perhaps an Oath player, lol). I'm not going to walk around saying ZOMG BANZ SHOPS because that would just be absurd - I'm not in the business of trying to kill off whole archetypes just because I don't find playing against them fun. Only WOTC (and apparently a bunch of people here) try and do that *facepalm*.

Oh, I see, it's the very concept of having banned/restricted cards that you find offensive.

That's retarded, but you're entitled to that terrible opinion.

[GGoober]

Boring thread is boring. Why the hell are we bringing up Mana Vault? Do people even know what are good and bad cards these days??

[Michael Keller]

There's no chance Hermit Druid and Memory Jar will ever come off the banned list. Combo is an accepted "pillar", but I find it very hard to believe DCI will unban either of the cards, considering just how massive their impact will be.

Jar: Shouldn't really need any explaination really, other than: it's not going to be used along with cute cards like Megrim...

Hermit Druid: 1 card combo. Which just happens to be protected by and immune to Mental Misstep.

@Kikoo: Diminishing Returns would see play if you could cast it off Ritual mana. Jar being colorless is a gigantic advantage.

The only card I could see getting unbanned at the moment would be Mind Twist.

Most would argue that in Legacy Hymn to Tourach is for all intents and purposes functionally better than Mind Twist. While I agree Hymn has a distinct advantage of hitting two random cards for the price of BB and Mind Twist only hits one random card for (X)B, it would ultimately come down to the deck a card like Mind Twist would be somewhat playable in. It is possible you would have to build a deck around setting up a big Twist to blow out an opponent, while not blowing yourself out in the process (kind of hard not to do in Legacy).

I'd imagine the card would shine best in a Suicide shell. The big test here is setting up the foundation for a deck that doesn't have to be necessarily built around Mind Twist and is capable of exploiting its power without Black Lotus and Moxen being accessible.

[lorddotm]

Saying that Trinisphere decks are scary and LED is a fair card (remember that this also power Dredge) reveals, I think, a mere rationalization of the status quo.

LED decks aren't scary because they shit on themselves pretty often. Also they require an extremely high level of skill to pilot correctly (once again, look at the number of LED decks on Day 2).

Trinisphere decks can be piloted just as well by a monkey as they would be by Kai Budde. Losing to a terrible player with a stupid deck is not fun for anyone. Yes, Trinisphere decks shit on themselves, but they take away a huge part of the game of magic, skill, and I personally don't like that. To be fair, I'm not just saying this as a Storm player, I hate Trinisphere when I'm playing a deck that doesn't care about it. I just don't agree with cards that actively try and prevent your opponent from playing magic. You might argue that Tendrils keeps players from playing by killing them, but they usually have a chance, or they were playing an aggro deck in an Eternal format, so they should be punished.

Regardless, this is a useless discussion about who hates what cards. Mana Vault shouldn't be unbanned, the potential for breaking is too much, and LED doesn't need to be banned since Dredge can survive without it, but Storm just dies (and Storm only put 3 very good Storm players into Day 2, I don't think any made Top 32).

Back on topic.

Hermit Druid became far too good now that Misstep is a card (not to mention it gets to abuse Zenith).

Memory Jar. Seriously? Have you ever played with this card? It is pretty fucking busted.

Mystical Tutor is probably safe to unban again. Misstep goes on counter duty pretty well.

Land Tax and Mind Twist are both incredibly safe to unban. Recruiter would make Goblins a deck again, so that might be nice.

Mind's Desire (this is where people will start really disagreeing with me) is compeletly safe to unban. What Dark Ritual deck can easily get 4UU? Sure, it can win at a lower life total, but then it has to face the hate that the opponents have. I definitely think it is safe.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Oh, I see, it's the very concept of having banned/restricted cards that you find offensive.

That's retarded, but you're entitled to that terrible opinion.

Your ability to read things from my posts that aren't actually there is rather interesting. Retarded, but interesting.

You might argue that Tendrils keeps players from playing by killing them, but they usually have a chance, or they were playing an aggro deck in an Eternal format, so they should be punished.

QFT LMAO. The only difference is that I actually like rocking out with my Trinisphere out once in a while...

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Your ability to read things from my posts that aren't actually there is rather interesting. Retarded, but interesting.

Your irrational hatred of LED is well-documented at this point, so I'm just going to ignore everything other than that last bit.

Unintentional irony is unintentional.

[Mr.Dieth]

LED definitly needs NO ban.

Even decks that can take huge advantage ( dredge .. ) out of it don't play it !

At bom5 a NON LED dredge went top 4 and at GP Providence a NON LED dredge was 9th..

So if even those decks aren't playing it .. It really deserves no ban.

I would like to see mind twist though!

every other card isn't safe to come of the list. And certainly not mystical tutor. Do you really want to play against reanimator with 4mystical, 4mms, 4fow and 4 daze ? I wish you luck,

[Gheizen64]

LED definitly needs NO ban.

Even decks that can take huge advantage ( dredge .. ) out of it don't play it !

At bom5 a NON LED dredge went top 4 and at GP Providence a NON LED dredge was 9th..

So if even those decks aren't playing it .. It really deserves no ban.

I would like to see mind twist though!

every other card isn't safe to come of the list. And certainly not mystical tutor. Do you really want to play against reanimator with 4mystical, 4mms, 4fow and 4 daze ? I wish you luck,

Vise, Tax, Earthcraft and Twist are all pretty tame and would probably have little impact on the format. Vise is a bad card nowadays, card advantage isn't what define the format since .... 2001? In burn is a 3 to 5 damage one-mana burn spell that can be casted only on T1. It sucks. Tax would probably be played in some heavy control shell, but Loam is usually better and don't require you to twist your deck to play it. Twist has a similar problem as Vise. It was good when the format was all about card advantage and keeper mirrors, nowadays it's mediocre. Planeswalker existing doesn't help, either.
Earthcraft could boost enchantress and elves, but those aren't better than any SnT deck out there and are hateable far more easily.

There are other cards that would be interesting to see off the list, but won't be unbanned for monetary reasons (Imperial Seal) or logistic reasons (Dragon).

[Admiral_Arzar]

Vise, Tax, Earthcraft and Twist are all pretty tame and would probably have little impact on the format. Vise is a bad card nowadays, card advantage isn't what define the format since .... 2001? In burn is a 3 to 5 damage one-mana burn spell that can be casted only on T1. It sucks. Tax would probably be played in some heavy control shell, but Loam is usually better and don't require you to twist your deck to play it. Twist has a similar problem as Vise. It was good when the format was all about card advantage and keeper mirrors, nowadays it's mediocre. Planeswalker existing doesn't help, either.
Earthcraft could boost enchantress and elves, but those aren't better than any SnT deck out there and are hateable far more easily.

There are other cards that would be interesting to see off the list, but won't be unbanned for monetary reasons (Imperial Seal) or logistic reasons (Dragon).

Agreed with everything here except for Imperial Seal. Even a sorcery-speed Vampiric Tutor is still way too good, and would cause combo players the world over to JIZZ IN OUR PANTS.