[Deck] Merfolk

[Julian23]

It also helps with the awful matchup that is Lands (Surgical Extraction + Needle makes this workable)

Coming from a dedicated Lands and part-time Merfolk player: Surgical Extraction is really good against Lands but doesn't defeat Tranquil Thicket. What really helps a ton vs. Lands is actually Kira, nullifying Maze of Ith while Wasteland takes care of Glacial Chasm for the lethal attack.
Don't get me wrong, I think Lands is still favored by about 60/40 against Merfolk but its actually much harder than Merfolk might think.

[kingtk3]

...
Although, versus Dredge, I think the consistency of the "just counter their PImp or Tribe" plan is slightly over-rated. Tbh I haven't tested it much recently, but my gut tells me that Dredge got hurt less by Mental Misstep than Storm strategies did. I mean, if they stick a discard outlet against us, they can start abusing it pretty quickly, whereas Storm has to chain together a bunch of spells during one turn, among which one-mana-spells are the most frequent casting cost. Plus, compared to the Storm matchup, Cursecatcher and FoW are less effective overall against Dredge (although obviously, both still pretty good.)

I have to disagree: countering dredge's first discard outlets usually they are slowed down enough for us to build a board. Dredge is very dependant on the first seven cards and when you force them to go in topdeck mode you should win.
Moreover, while fow is not very good against them, cursecatcher shines for it's ability to sacrifice himself thus nullyfing bridges.

That said, i usually have 2-3 graveyard hate plus 2 echoing truth in the SB, just in case.

[HokusSchmokus]

As a "veteran" Dredge player, let me just say this:
Firestorm is not played in Europe, and should not be played in general.
Whether you have Elesh Norn or not, doesn't matter, you don't really need Firestorms for anything.
Today was a Legacy Tourney, and I competed. 6 Rounds, two vs Merfolk. Every time, in all 4 Games it was enough to either DDD or to 1st Turn Therapy/Outlet ->2nd Turn Outlet.
Dredge hasn't nearly suffered as much as you would think.
But, if people keep playing rediculously bad SBs from certain SCG Premium Articles, my point is invalid.#

Plus, if People keep fucking up playing hate correctly, I can guarantee for nothing. And today I walked across 4 Opponents who did exactly this.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

I have to disagree: countering dredge's first discard outlets usually they are slowed down enough for us to build a board. Dredge is very dependant on the first seven cards and when you force them to go in topdeck mode you should win.
Moreover, while fow is not very good against them, cursecatcher shines for it's ability to sacrifice himself thus nullyfing bridges.

That said, i usually have 2-3 graveyard hate plus 2 echoing truth in the SB, just in case.

I wasn't really trying to say that it's bad to counter their discard outlet, just that this plan is inherently equally as dependent on your first seven cards. Counter-less hands do happen with this deck, and I'm much more inclined to keep them than I am with creature-less hands, personally (although obviously, neither is ideal). Anyways, all I was trying to say is that I perceive Dredge to be a better deck than "Storm.dec" right now.

As a "veteran" Dredge player, let me just say this:
Firestorm is not played in Europe, and should not be played in general.
Whether you have Elesh Norn or not, doesn't matter, you don't really need Firestorms for anything.
Today was a Legacy Tourney, and I competed. 6 Rounds, two vs Merfolk. Every time, in all 4 Games it was enough to either DDD or to 1st Turn Therapy/Outlet ->2nd Turn Outlet.
Dredge hasn't nearly suffered as much as you would think.
But, if people keep playing rediculously bad SBs from certain SCG Premium Articles, my point is invalid.#

Plus, if People keep fucking up playing hate correctly, I can guarantee for nothing. And today I walked across 4 Opponents who did exactly this.

I'm not sure what SCG Premium article sideboard you're referring to here, but I'm interested in your thoughts on the matchup. What cards exactly, or what sideboard plan, are you referring to as bad?

Also, as far as your thoughts on playing sideboard hate incorrectly, or what the best options for grave hate are right now, etc, I'd be very interested. But you're being kind of vague, can you go into more detail?

[HokusSchmokus]

Of course I can! Sorry for being vague, but I was in quite a hurry when I wrote this.

On the shitty SCG sideboard plan: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...Dredge_Fu.html
4 Firestorm
3 Winds of Change
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Angel of Despair
1 Ichorid

Now, I am biased as can be, but this Sideboard is just the wackness.
Besides, he shamelessly steals Maindeck tech from innovators, but that's another thing. The problem is, that at least in the US this mess is acutally played. Against this I would advice to play only 2-3 hate pieces, like Relic or Crpyt, Crypt being way better at this btw.

An example of a proper Sideboard includes 4 Ancient Grudge, 4 Nature's Claim, 2 Ray of Relevation and some other stuff, but this is mainly the things you need to worry about. As for hate, Elesh Norn and maybe Firestorm comes in, but I'd advice any Dredge-player against playing Firestorm. Now, I myself like to board out my DR package and board in 3 Grudges, 1 Darkblast vs Merfolk. That makes 2 Blasts. Also this means, cursecatches don't save you anymore.

Now to the normal Merfolk player I face rather often( note: I mean no offense to anyone, it's just that this happens to me all the time) decides that he holds any hand with 1 relic+x and does something along the lines of Island-Relic. Now if I resolve a n outlet, pass the turn some people play stuff like standstill. DON'T DO IT. You will lose.
So if I resolve an outlet, let's say PImp, I pass the turn. Now one of two things tend to happen:
1. He tappes out to cast things. I then go Untap- discard 2 cards, one is Ancient Grudge, blow up Relic and win.
2. He doesn't tap out but as soon as I discard 2 cards, even if Grudge isn't among them, blows up relic.
That's one example of crapping it against Ichorid. I know most people here will shake their heads but it happens, and it happens often. Also, Sorcery speed hating is a common thing. Play hate, activate, go. That's also getting you nowhere.
What most players seem to forget is that Ichorid is fairly capable of playing through hate, even without Antihatecards. So the activation of said hate needs to be at a point thats crucial to the game.

I am sorry if the things I write are a bit hard to understand, but it's 35°C here, I am tired after work and not a native english speaker^^.

Oh, and regarding the topic what hate to play:
Artifact hate is not really that useful you think. Of course it can ruin the Dredgers day but Artifact hate is by far the most common thing I face and I almost always board according to that. Just don't think you've won if you blow up his graveyard with only 20 cards in it. Focus and keep playing properly.
Enchantment hate is better. We only have 2 Rays most of the time and 4 Nature's Claim who have to be drawn normally. BUT, and this is important, boarding in Leyline of the Void against Ichorid is not the way to go. Boarding Leylines never is, and this is true for every deck. If i have to explain that , please comment and I will.
Other Enchantments are way better, but I think out of the reach for Merfolk, at leastfot he Mono U version. UB can board Planar Void for example.

The hate that I reccommend is: for Mono-U
+2-3 relic/Crypt +2-3 Ravenous Trap

For UB
+1Crypt/Relic,+1 Planar void,+1 Jailer,+1 Trap,+1 Extirpate.
Just lots of stuff that isn't the same.

[Floi]

For as much testing as I've done against post-board Dredge, Firestorm has been quite devastating. It is a discard outlet that cannot be countered and sometimes even a sweeper at the cost of 1 mana (even though resources work differently for Dredge). So if you don't mind, please elaborate why Firestorm is a bad SB card.

And why not 2-3 Relic/Crypt + x Surgical Extractions?

[HokusSchmokus]

For as much testing as I've done against post-board Dredge, Firestorm has been quite devastating. It is a discard outlet that cannot be countered and sometimes even a sweeper at the cost of 1 mana (even though resources work differently for Dredge). So if you don't mind, please elaborate why Firestorm is a bad SB card.

And why not 2-3 Relic/Crypt + x Surgical Extractions?

No, I don't mind.

2-3 Relic /Crypt +x Surgical Extractions would work too, for mono U I guess, I just cannot think of a reason to play Surgical Extractions vs Ichorid. Extirpate is Sub-par on it#s own and you can even respond to Surgical Extraction. But I guess it can work.

Firestorm is a bad Sideboard card mainly because you don't need it. You need to have cards in your hand to do something, and to sweep the board against Merfolk you often need to have 3-4 cards+ Firestorm. First turn Firestorm does nothing except Discarding (and that only once) and maybe killing a Cursecatcher, and afterwards Merfolk recovers af if there had been nothing. just to discard, everything else is better, even with MMS around(which is not that much of an issue, tbh). Because you don't need that card, you can easily free up 4 spots in your SB and that is a LOT.

[bakofried]

Did you read the article? He does explain why he doesn't play counterhate like Claim, Grudge, and Ray.

[HokusSchmokus]

I read it.
I can understand his point.
I still don't advice doing it like that.

Edit: Just to validate my point a bit:

I read the article multiple times. I am an addict to the dredge mechanic and read everything about it I can find.
I really really respect what Max McCall has done for this deck, same goes for Parcher and basicly anybody that has done a lot.So if a person that is relatively experienced with the deck suggests a plan like this, I test it.
And boy, I tested it. Me and some friends of mine who together dredge cards in our Graveyards for well over 20 years set up a rather big testing session.
Result: Underwhelming.

Edit2: This isn't the Ichorid thread, btw.

[bakofried]

Eh, just making sure. So is Dismember still treating everyone well?

[yoshencranz]

Has anyone tried out Merfolk with Ancestral Visions yet? I imagine it could fit well into this deck. Played T2 sometimes after a T1: Island, Vial, Daze sounds not too bad to me.

4 Vials

20 Merfolk

3 Daze
3 Force
4 Misstep
2 Dismember
3 Ancestral Visions

21 Lands

Just wondering.

[SlopeeJ]

I'm just wondering to, why don't you test it?

[yoshencranz]

I'll get right on it. No tourney results probably until later this week, Legacy events ramp up towards the end of the week here in the Twin Cities.

I can test it vs. some normal builds that friends run prior and give some results in a few days though. (Bant, BantNO, Gobos, Team America/Italia, Burn, Rock, Junk, Elves...Sorry not much combo with my playtest group).

[Tacosnape]

Re the dredge discussion: You're assuming all Merfolk players are bad. They're not. Here's the reality of the situation:

1. Good players don't play Relic of Progenitus in Legacy. I don't care what your name is, how many pro points you have, how big your fan club is, or how much you get paid to show up at events. Relic of Progenitus is the new Jotun Grunt - If you're running it in Legacy right now, you're making a mistake. It's too slow against the decks where it's worth boarding yard hate in, and its converted mana cost is 1. Play Tormod's Crypt. Play Leyline of the Void. Play Surgical Extraction. Play Faerie Macabre. Play Extirpate. Play Nihil Spellbomb. Hell, skip graveyard hate and play something to shore up other matches. All of these options are better for most of Legacy than Relic of Progenitus.

2. Players who know the Dredge matchup do not make terrible plays like dropping a Standstill, or keeping the wrong hands and expecting them to get there. They know how to use Mental Misstep, Wasteland, Daze, and Cursecatcher to counter the right spells at the right time and leave you behind in the damage race.

3. Firestorm in Dredge is amazing against Merfolk. This isn't even up for discussion. It's also a fact that Firestorm is an uncounterable discard outlet. Whether this warrants its inclusion is debatable, but in the modern metagame I think dodging Mental Misstep is pretty nuts solid.

[bakofried]

Taco, have you considered a pair of Metamorphs in the Sovereign slot in your deck? It fights Batterskull, opposing legends of the annoying variety, and Jitte, or can alternatively copy a lord or even a Silvergill.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Taco, have you considered a pair of Metamorphs in the Sovereign slot in your deck? It fights Batterskull, opposing legends of the annoying variety, and Jitte, or can alternatively copy a lord or even a Silvergill.

Unless I'm missing something, wouldn't copying Batterskull give you a 0/0 Germ token that would promptly die? Metamorph is still a decent card, but pretty sure this doesn't work.

[cheerios]

For those having trouble against dredge, a combination of graveyard hate and propaganda have never failed me post board. They seldom have the mana to pay to attack, and so far in my area, dredge players seldom board in enchantment hate against merfolk since they only anticipate the artifact type of dredge hate.

[bakofried]

Unless you copy the Batterskull itself, which has Living Weapon and grants the appropriate abilities. We may never be able to sneak it into play with Stoneforge, but we could tick Vial up to 4.

[lorddotm]

Unless you copy the Batterskull itself, which has Living Weapon and grants the appropriate abilities. We may never be able to sneak it into play with Stoneforge, but we could tick Vial up to 4.

Seems loosey-goosey.

[lorddotm]

Unless you copy the Batterskull itself, which has Living Weapon and grants the appropriate abilities. We may never be able to sneak it into play with Stoneforge, but we could tick Vial up to 4.

Seems loosey-goosey.