@gobolord: Defense Grid is really good, but honestly I prefer some combination of 4x Duress then 3-5 Thoughtseize/Swarm in the main or board. This has worked quite well over the past few weeks against all kinds of random shit. Grid is very solid and NOT too slow. Against the decks you want it against, you usually have ample time to set up the win, and against Merfolk you just run Swarm.
This is totally off topic but I decided to try Cunning Wish in ANT again and I'm really starting to like it. I can post the list but its pretty untested so I am not sure if its final yet, but I slowly began to realize that nearly my entire SB can be wish targets and it won't effect my normal game plan 1 bit. I only need 3-4 dedicated wish slots and the rest of the board can be wished for at will. Since I am only playing 2 Wishes I am positive that I am running these: AdN and Cabal Rit in the dedicated slots but I am racking my brain trying to figure out if Brainfreeze or Hunting Pack is the better kill card or if BOTH are necessary?
Yes, Freeze is heavily reliant on AdN resolving and Hunting Pack is just terrible but ... diversification of wins cons is really important. Do you think both are necessary? Can anyone think of some other random instants that I should consider? For now its basically just some combination of bounce, kill, and the 4th Swarm. Most likely to mirror:
AdN
CRit
blank
blank
2x H Recall
1x Rebuild
1x Swarm
2x Wipe Away
1x Grip
1x Slaughter Pact
1x Chain of Vapor
1x Tendrils
1x Mindbreak Trap
Or something along those lines. This is just off the top of my head but I know I will play 3x slots for Stax/Stompy and 3x for CB since people foolishly still play it in my meta and keep losing. Thoughts on this and perhaps any suggestions on overlooked instants?
"I just shot Marvin in the face!"
"Why the fuck'd you do that??"
@pulp_fiction Ravenous trap. Not sure if necessary since we should be faster than dredge
Rain of filth can be good late game and costs only 1 compared to cabal.
FoW? I know it creates alot of card disadvantage but it might be worth it as a 1 of.
Pact of Negation
Misdirection
Submerge
Tranquil Domain. Straight bounce is probably better
Surgical extraction.
Orim's chant
Ancient grudge or crash if you can splash
Tangle to buy turns if necessary
Beast Within. Permanent answer to problematic cards
These are all I could come up with hope it helps
I'm confused as to why you couldn't just target the same thing every time and just have them fizzle.Originally Posted by rukcus
The only other thing that worries me about Defense Grid in the board is that if they resolve something like a Chalice, Null Rod or Trinisphere (or any problematic permanent), it becomes much more difficult to bounce it since you'll probably have to bounce it on your turn.
Exactly which deck with Chalice/Trini/Null would you be boarding Defense Grid in against?
"I'm willing to imagine a TES where Past in Flames replaces Ill-Gotten Gains entirely, and we just don't play Diminishing Returns." - me, 29/09/2011
Founding member of Team Scrubbad: Legacy Legends
Is Gitaxian Probe really that good?
Bob Yu here. Look for a report soon, but the deck was savage. I lost to Nick Spagnolo and a battle of wits deck, because I savagely punted and fizzled with Ad Naus at 13 life. Scotty is a very close friend, and we've both been developing the deck for the past 2 weeks. Scott is probably the strongest combo player I've met, due to his Vintage experience with TPS.
Ad Naus is the real deal.
Hey man, great work! I was just wondering, how has IGG been working out for you guys? I was beginning to think that perhaps there is too much blue in the meta for it to be maindecked, but I could be wrong. How often did you guys use it? Thanks!
Looking forward to that report!
"I'm willing to imagine a TES where Past in Flames replaces Ill-Gotten Gains entirely, and we just don't play Diminishing Returns." - me, 29/09/2011
Founding member of Team Scrubbad: Legacy Legends
Since you asked, here are some decks from recent top 16 that have permanents that we'd want to bounce end of their turn before we go off and having Defense Grid out would be troublesome.
Legacy Orlando
Show and Tell - Leyline of Sanctity (Thomas Ma)
Merfolk - Phyrexian Revoker & Null Rod (Jacob Boschee)
Show and Tell - Leyline of Sanctity (Hans Feng)
Bazar of Moxen
Reanimator - Iona, Shield of Emeria (Oliver Salten)
NOPro Zenith Bant - Ethersworn Canonist, Null Rod (Alexeia Isupov)
Sneak and Show - Trinisphere (Rodrigo Togores)
Landstill Bant - Meddling Mage (Selim Creiche)
Sneak and Show - Trinisphere (Johannes Gutbrod)
Show and Tell - Iona, Shield of Emeria (Michael Kammer)
GP
No Force Bant - Gaddock Teeg (James Rynkiewicz)
Hive Mind - Leyline of Sanctity (Bryan Eleyet)
U/W Stoneblade - Meddling Mage (Owen Turtenwald)
Even if several of those decks don't run Chalice of the Void, Trinisphere or Null Rod in them, there are enough control decks that run permanent based combo disruption to warrant the exclusion of Defense Grid. I'm also not counting the Graveyard hate or Blood Moon in boards as "must" bounce spells. Both are troublesome and while not being "must" bounce cards, our life is certainty easier without them on the board when we try to go off. This is especially true since Blood Moon shuts down all but five lands in our deck and Graveyard hate nerfs Cabal Ritual and takes away Ill-Gotten Gains as a route to victory.
Has it also been mentioned that Defense Grid is terrible when flipping with Ad Nauseam?
I'd be interested in reading a report or at least comments on deck construction from Scott Limoges who piloted the Probe list. Interestingly enough, it only ran 14 lands and no Chrome Mox which seems really light. I guess Probe does allow the deck to functionally run 56 cards, but it also would seem that resolving one for free prior to casting an Ad Nauseam seems disadvantageous since statistically one could flip two more cards from Ad Nauseam.
Holy crap. So the deck ran 14 lands and 5 business spells? I've definitely got to hear about the reasons behind some of these choices.
I'm not going to lie, but his list looks loosey goosey, and I wouldn't play it without having found a pot o' gold at the end of a rainbow.
Also, he made some pretty bad mistakes under the lights. Maybe Denver is riddled with soft players, I don't know.
I realize I sound like a douche in this post, but lets be honest here, you two just Top 16'd a 100+ man even with a deck a lot of people think doesn't exist. Mad props.
BONUS:
Here is my current TNT list:
Main Deck
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Burning Wish
3 Infernal Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Preordain
4 Duress
3 Thoughtseize
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Ill-gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
2 Island
2 Swamp
Sideboard
1 Thoughtseize
2 Echoing Truth
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Wipe Away
3 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill-gotten Gains
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Meltdown
1 Pyroclasm
3 Dark Confidant
So far it has been decent, still not sold on the Bobs.
Just hit post number 1,000. NBD.
The deck is loose for sure. But in Scotty's defense, this was his first tournament in 2+ years. We are mainly Vintage players who basically play casually (like once every 2-3 months). He is very familiar with storm combo, and thought ANT would be the best call.
With that being said, his reasoning for running probe is that basically ANT has two matchups: Blue and Non-blue. Probe gives you info on what the matchup is, and how to play accordingly. Going forward, if more control decks pop up, I would definitely run a couple maindeck Gitaxian probes. They won't counter it, it adds to storm, replaces itself, and most importantly is FREE. The card helps a bunch with the "draw up to 8 and naturally tendrils you out" plan.
I am looking to play some sort of ANT for this month legacy local event and putting some list together. I also feel like Cunning Wish could be a acceptable substitute to Grim Tutor. I haven't done much testing yet, but here is a sample list:
Spell: 43
4x Dark Ritual
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Lotus Petal
4x Infernal Tutor
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Duress
4x Thoughtseize
3x Cabal Ritual
3x Preordain
2x Cunning Wish
1x Ill-Gotten Gains
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Ad Nauseam
Land: 17
4x Polluted Delta
3x Misty Rainforest
2x Verdant Catacomb
2x Swamp
2x Island
2x Underground Sea
2x Tropical Island
SB: 15
4x Xanid Swarm
2x Wipe Away
1x Echoing truth
1x Krosan Grip
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Ad Nauseam
1x Slaughter Pact
1x Pact of Negation
1x Cabal Ritual
1x Chain of Vapor
1x Hurkyl's Recall
Also, if we would run Cunning Wish, would Autumn's Veil be ok in the side?
Any reason why you don't leave a Doomsday for wish target?
I know Grim Tutor isn't available to everone, but how could Cunning Wish possibly substitute G. Tutor? They do totally different things. Cunning Wish basically tutors you protection-spells while G.Tutor most ofetn fetches you winconditions.
Sure, you can argue that C. Wish fetches you AdN, but that's the wincondition you should be looking for when the Iggy and Tutorchain don't work for some reason. Plus, it's unlikely that you will be able to spend 8 mana on C. Wish + AdN and still have mana floating.
That being said: I think C. Wish is very interesting and should absolutely be considered - not as a replacement for a tutor or a wincondition though.
MountainCaverns, Lackey, Go.
If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchanges our apples, we each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange our ideas, we each have two ideas.
Because I don't need one. Any reason you think I do need one?
I don't think that list needs one.
On the other hand, having the standard cantrips (Brainstorm, Ponder, and Preordain) plus a free cantrip in Gitaxian Probe means Doomsday can go off more easily than before. But that's probably a discussion for another thread.
Anyone not willing to shell out $150+ for Grim Tutors should just play lorddotm's 'TNT' list. It's extremely consistent, and has a good manabase against Wasteland, especially for being 3 colors.
I believe lorddotm & GoboLord are spot on with their analysis. Something else that seems to be a weakness of this particular list is that you're running two Tropical Island in the maindeck. While I understand the benefits of this strategy having access to some strong sideboard cards, do you feel like or have you experienced mana issues as a result of not having access to black mana? It would appear to me that going into a third color in the main deck for which you don't even have spells you can cast unless you have access to Cunning Wish makes you unnecessarily vulnerable to Wasteland and potentially color screw. You're list is already running 4 Duress and 4 Thoughtseize. Why not edit the slots Cunning Wish currently occupies with some combination of bounce spells? Wipeaway seems like a good answer since it can bounce almost anything and probably serves the same purpose as Krosan Grip does in the board in terms of answering problematic permanents.
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