Phantasmagorian is sick in this build and playing les than 4 is just nonsense. You can throw your entire hand into the bin if you got two of those and its definetly THE card that you want to have in your opening seven (discard him, discard 3 Dredgers/Stuff).
I am going to test the deck in the near future with the following list:
4 Chancellor of the Forge
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Spirit
4 Street Wraith
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Shambling Shell
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
2 River Kelpie
1 Blazing Archon
1 Flamekin Zealot
4 Bridge from Below
4 Narcomoeba
Sb:
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Angel of Despair
1 Elesh Norn
1 Sphinx of the Stell Wind/Ancestors Chosen
The Goldfish is surprisingly good. I dont see alot of reasons to play such a version above LED-less Dredge with 15 lands but I am open to new takes and think I'll have a lot of fun with it.
PS: Chancellor of the Forge is a decent DR target from time to time ;)
In response...Hypothek!
I've come to a few conclusions about manaless ichorid decks in Legacy. Manaless Ichorid decks are innately DDD Decks (obviously). They are fairly consistent, probably the best at getting dorks into play, but they are slow decks in general. I'm really unsure how much you should focus on DR-Combo wins in a build like this -- DR-Combo wins are more reasonable when you play a faster version of the deck, and I think such things grow weaker (in most cases) as you slow the deck down.
Here is my take (at least for now):
// Sawce - 4
4 Phantasmagorian
// Dredgers - 15
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
3 Dakmor Salvage
// Free Draw - 8
4 Street Wraith
4 Gitaxian Probe
// Free Dudes - 15
4 Nether Shadow
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
3 Bloodghast
// GY-Goodies - 14
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Bridge from Below
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 River Kelpie
// Flex -4
4 Unmask (trying Baubles out; also trying +1 Dakmor, +1 Bloodghast, +1 Kelpie, +1DR-Target [testing to see what I like in this slot])
LEDless is better in my experience.
Phantasmagorian is your best DDD card. It also helps you beat T1 relic. Having 2 either let's you discard either your entire hand or all but 2 cards at will, except in the case of having only 1 card in hand. Phantasmagorian is PImp and Tribe that can't really be countered (damn you MMisstep), although it gets rocked by various types of GY-hate, obviously.
peace,
4eak
Do you guys think Phantasmagorian can be in sideboards of common LED-less builds?
You can DD it, and then you have an uncounterable discart-outlet.
You know, all that mana-less deckbuilding and dodging Mental Missteps and Wasteland is certainly cool and such, but I guess it's not acceptable to:
- be TimeWalked by every single Discard Spell your opponents throw at you
- not have any chance to race Combo decks as well as Lands, Enchantress and Stax
- be Timewalked if you have to mull (which still happens in approximately 1 out of 7 games)
- be unable to beat Relic, Leyline and pretty much all other pieces of grave hate other than maybe Crypt and Spellbomb.
I guess for casual play, it might be fun to play manaless.
EDIT: @ Mojeh: Why would you ever need a discard outlet if you've already managed to resolve DR?
No, you I meant DD (draw, discart), not DR (dread return).Originally Posted by Izor
For example, against Merfolk, DDD can be a bad plan, since they have a short clock.
If you have a Phantasmogorian, you can DDD only once, an then discart your stuff without a PImp/Tribe/Study.
The thing is that the slower action you take requires you to have things in the deck that are able to compensate that. Chancellor helps a bit to generate a faster DR on River Kelpie or anything else that is able to buy you the turn(s) that are necessary. The Flamekin Zealot is damn good with settig up a Chancellor after DR (which will net a shitload of Tokens to the board). Neccessary? Who knows.
Blazing Archon wins singlehanded the RUG, Merfolk etc. MU's that lack "hard" removal. I am not quite sure if its better to put also Bloodghast in the deck and I played around with that Iídea also, but I think that the DR targets favour the deck heavily.
If the deck is a viable strategy needs to be tested but atm my gut feeling isnt as bad as if I would play LED-Dredge to be honest.
Unmask is a pretty decent card and I think about cutting the Leyline of the Void or something for it. Maybe its worth having it in the maindeck.
Conclusion: I think the deck has potential and deserves a bit more than just beeing bitched away by comparison between itself and LED-less Dredge; even if it is pretty obvious that the lists that were shoen here are no match for constant builds atm.
Greetings
In response...Hypothek!
Oh yeah, nevermind. I misread. Then your argument makes perfect sense.
Chancellor of the Forge really breaks this list. Starting with a 1/1 guy to sac for therapy certainly isn't terrible, and DR'ing one is pretty fucking retarded. Especially when followed by a FKZ.
Phantasm is amazing, and if you get 2 in the yard (not difficult), you can basically pitch your whole hand by looping them. This is probably the decks strongest point imho, as you can keep wonky hands like double bridge without fear (where normally you'd auto-ship it). Here's what I've been fiddling with today: (as suggested a few posts ago).
NLD: (No-Land-Dredge)
1 Blazing Archon
1 River Kelpie
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
4 Chancellor of the Forge
4 Narcomoeba
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Shambling Shell
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Street Wraith
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Gitaxian Probe
As stated earlier, getting thoughtsiezed sucks. Hard. But other then that this list is blazingly fast and surprisingly consistent.
Maybe LEDs in the board against discard decks? Or even in the main against decks that just won't counter it? Replacing Phantasmagorian? In early turns I feel like LED is better, and I think it's the early turns that matter. I appreciate the not casting any spells, but you need to resolve a dread return to win anyway, no?
Gitaxian probe/Street Wraith cycle then in response crack LED seems like an amazing play, and you can do it t1 with LED.
What you think about that list:
Main Deck (61 Cards):
1 Angel of Despair
4 Chancellor of the Forge
4 Chancellor of the Dross
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Shambling Shell
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Narcomoeba
4 Street Wraith
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Gitaxian Probe
SB (???):
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Iona, Shiel of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Blightsteel Colossus
Leyline of Sanctity??
Mental Misstep???
Chalice of the Void???
Lion's Eye Diamond????
Need a little help in SB!!
Parcher what are the chances you will drop a report on us?
Is he the guy who played Bloodghast Ichorid @ SCG?
If you fail to explain the reason behind your choice, technically, it's the wrong choice.
Zerk Thread -- Really, fun deck! ^^
I'm pretty sure he top 4'd the Jupiter Games Invitational this past weekend with LED Dredge.
Team Albany: What's Legacy?
You cannot know the sweetness of Victory, without first dwelling in the agony of Defeat.
Nah. He played a LED list with 2 extra outlets (Tribes) and some other stuff. Parchers name is Damon Whitby.
List:
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
1 Darkblast
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
3 Ichorid
2 Tireless Tribe
1 Sun Titan
1 Terrastadon
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
2 Deep Analysis
2 Dread Return
1 Careful Study
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
SB:
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
2 Darkblast
1 Flame Kin Zealot
1 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Ancient Grudge
3 Wispmare
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Ichorid
1 Dread Return
Decent list IMO.
With Dryad Arbor, for Ancient Grudge and/or Reverent Silence, Manaless Dredge could work! :)
Sample list:
4 Dryad Arbor
(4 Lands)
1 Angel of Despair
4 Chancellor of the Forge
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow
4 Shambling Shell
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith
(41 Creatures)
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Gitaxian Probe
(16 Other spells)
Sideboard:
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
4 Mental Misstep
4 Reverent Silence
4 Ancient Grudge
(15 Sideboard cards)
Last edited by mooN_MTG; 06-15-2011 at 01:19 PM.
That would no longer make it mana less. Right?
Sims, how did you do at the invitational. Did you play Dredge?
Wasn't there. I haven't been to a Jupiter tournament in a while, though there was easily a carful from this area down there.
Had I gone, odds are it would have been dredge though.
Team Albany: What's Legacy?
You cannot know the sweetness of Victory, without first dwelling in the agony of Defeat.
As with most dominant performances with Ichorid, there isn't much of a story to tell. I picked the right deck, with the right card choices for the tournament, and know how to play. It went something like:
Round one: Nate; U/W Stoneblade: Game one: I roll him pretty easily. He counters my draw, and Wastes my Coliseum before I can use it after I cast a Thug to flashback Therapy.Which gives him enough time to cast Batterskull. I use a sandbagged LED to cast a Deep Analysis, and he scoops when he sees Terastadon.
Game Two: He scoops on turn two.
Round two: Will; NO RUG: Game one: No real action for me, and he outraces me by a turn.
Game two: He counters my first three plays and drops double Crypt.
Round three: Ross; Elves: Game one: Darkblast allows me to outrace him by a turn.
Game two: He survives for a while with Ground Seal turning off Dread Return on Elesh Norn. He scoops on turn five after seeing me drop my second land with multiple Darkblasts in the yard, and him having lost his hand to DBlast and only a Vengevine in play.
Round four: Anton; Reanimator: Game one: He locks me out with a turn two Elesh Norn.
Game two: He plays land, go. I drop PImp. He plays land, go. I Dredge, swing, and drop a second City. He EOT Entombs Elesh Norn. Untaps, Animate Dead on Elesh Norn(I pitch a few ancillary cards before PImp dies). Plays Swamp, plays Reanimate on my Grave Troll(my only Dredger in 'yard, or in hand). "Nice hand.", I say. "Fine. Pay five life, I get him back anyway. You have no creatures in your 'yard", I say. He points to his Elesh Norn on board. I sigh and facepalm.
I draw Coliseum for the turn, and activate it with two cards in hand after discarding. I then play my drawn Wispmare with the untapped City, killing Norn's Animate Dead, and getting my goddamned Troll back. He asks the judge about the CMC of Evoke creatures, telegraphing his last card(reason I chose Wispmare btw). He has no action, and I use both Cities to flashback DA the next turn to lock him out.
Game three: He has no hate, but gets turn two Iona naming Black after Forcing my LED. I have turn two Tribe, with turn three Breathrough for one ignoring his Iona and Misstep. Iona doesn't race that.
Round five: Alex; U/W Stoneblade: I win both games with basically zero interaction. He does have outs game one, but I turn three Dread Return Terastadon, and then sac it to a superfluous Therapy to leave the board state with my having 12 Zombies as my only permanents, and Alex having 3 Elephants as his only permanents.
And zero outs.
Round six: Dan; Hive Mind: Game one: Turn three he passes the turn with a tapped Volc, an untapped Tomb, and a Fetch. I Therapy, which he allows, and name Intuition, which hits. He shows Hive Mind, and Show and Tell, with no other action. He doesn't SnT next turn, since I still have a hand and he's pretty low, and he didn't draw a Pact that turn. My Terastadon the following turn drops him to one land, and out of the game.
Game two: He Brainstorms turn two in response to a Therapy with a tapped Tomb, and untapped Monolith in play. I look at my hand and think for a while, and name Pact of the Titan. He shows the Summoner's Pact and blanks in his hand, planning on dropping his hidden Hive Mind the next turn. I then drop my LED,(to go with the City I played turn one PImp with) and he is blanked by his Brainstorm on finding another Pact for the two more turns it takes me to kill him. I play no spells just in case.
Round seven: Dan; Cawblade: ID
Quarterfinal: Will; Ginger Ninja: Game one: I get nothing going, and he rolls me.
Game two: The opposite of game one.
Game three: Best game of the day. After about 4-5 turns, I've killed all of his weenies with DBlast, and am slow-dredging. He has a Goyf, two-three cards in hand, four lands, and he has Extracted my Bridges. I'm alternating Dredging Troll, and Blast, depending on what he plays, and have two Cities, and two Ichorids. Unfortunately, usually only one is active. After getting the life totals to 6 each, and my having two Narcos to join my squad, I attempt a Therapy, which he Pierces. I pass, and he plays a second Goyf. I Dredge the third Narco, and two more Black creatures after getting back both Ichorids.
This is my one mistake. He has three F/I left in his deck compared to only two Surgical Extractions(we saw decklists). After the Pierce and Goyf, he only has two cards left, of which one I know is a land. I should have DR'd Elesh Norn, and swung for the win. Instead, I give him two more turns to find outs. He would have had to hit running Fire/Ice(to kill Narcos in response to Norn), and then a second F/I(to tap Norn) or Bolt to kill me with both Goyfs swinging. But with me knowing there was no Countermagic for DR(I could pay for Pierce while being still out of range of one burn spell), I should have played to the odds better. He didn't draw a second burn spell(never had the Fire/Ice) or Extraction in the next two turns, and I killed him.
Semifinal: Will; NO RUG(from rd. two): Game one: I mull to four and don't get there.
Game two: He counters my first three plays, and only has one Crypt. Fucker.
The deck was solid. Sun Titan was a mistake, as he rarely has an immediate board impact, and is weaker than both Sphinx and Witness at what they do individually. This deck can't afford generically good guys.
Against anything but Merfolk, DBlast is better than Firestorm right now. And if Fish has REB, DBlast is still better. They both act effectively as discard outlets, but DBlast kills all the weenies around now even through Mental Misstep. And as a dredger as well, can allow you to slow dredge better post-board. Also helps dodge Extract-a-pate on your dredgers.
I like the Ichorid and DR in the board, but am unsure about the second Tribe, and Careful Study I replaced them with in the main. The rest is pretty well set.
~ Team Unicorn Motto
Did you call 'draw' or 'play' @ game 1s?
If you fail to explain the reason behind your choice, technically, it's the wrong choice.
Zerk Thread -- Really, fun deck! ^^
I lost every die roll except against Elves, where I played. I saw Fauna Shaman while shuffling.
The three times I got a choice were the two game twos against NO/RUG Will, where I knew he had Crypt and had Dazes, so I played first. And the one game against Ginger Will, where I knew he had no Missteps, so I played first.
~ Team Unicorn Motto
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