All B/R update speculation.

[Gheizen64]

Loam replaces the regular draw by it's dredge ability, works only well with multiple lands in the grave and once you shuffle them all via Brain-/jace-storming into your library the cardadvantage is gone. That is a significant difference

Because Tax magically always trigger? Both are conditional, but tax has the worst restriction, especially for a control deck. Loam allow you to play your game (answering threats) early on and then get card advantage when it will really matter, from midgame on.

Having Jace + Tax active is nearly impossible against Zoo, Merfolk, Goblin, Ichorid, Elves and so on.

Unban Tax + Vise + twist = no changes in legacy. I would take a bet on it if only WotC had the balls to unrestrict all those cards at once.

[Lemnear]

Tax could make Path to Exile and Co. really good.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

As a rule, and not to sound like too much of a dick, but I just tend to ignore at this point anyone saying anything about Land Tax potentially being playable, much less broken. It means that either

a) They haven't actually tested the card, or

b) They just don't understand the power level of Legacy.

Or both.

Life from the Loam is approximately a hundred times better than Land Tax. The card represents no threat at all. It's probably the least powerful card that's ever been banned in this format, including the old 1.5 cards like Berserk and Regrowth and even Braingeyser.

[Tammit67]

As a rule, and not to sound like too much of a dick, but I just tend to ignore at this point anyone saying anything about Land Tax potentially being playable, much less broken. It means that either

a) They haven't actually tested the card, or

b) They just don't understand the power level of Legacy.

Or both.

Not only to agree with you, but if you replace 'Land tax' with 'Memory Jar', and the 'much less broken' with 'absolutely broken', you have my stance on Jar. I can't take people seriously when they entertain Jar not being busted in legacy.

[Admiral_Arzar]

As a rule, and not to sound like too much of a dick, but I just tend to ignore at this point anyone saying anything about Land Tax potentially being playable, much less broken. It means that either

a) They haven't actually tested the card, or

b) They just don't understand the power level of Legacy.

Or both.

Life from the Loam is approximately a hundred times better than Land Tax. The card represents no threat at all. It's probably the least powerful card that's ever been banned in this format, including the old 1.5 cards like Berserk and Regrowth and even Braingeyser.

I still believe that the only reason Land Tax is still on the ban list is the time issue. Also, the only reason Dragon is still banned IMO is the random draws the combo generates.

Not only to agree with you, but if you replace 'Land tax' with 'Memory Jar', and the 'much less broken' with 'absolutely broken', you have my stance on Jar. I can't take people seriously when they entertain Jar not being busted in legacy.

All of these posts are ignoring why I and others are posting cards like this. It gets fucking boring to just talk about "acceptable" cards all day long, especially when the arguments about those cards have happened approximately 32675475478 times already. I would MUCH rather think about what would happen if WOTC dropped a bomb like Jar on the format than the little that would likely happen if cards like Tax or Twist came off.

[Tammit67]

All of these posts are ignoring why I and others are posting cards like this. It gets fucking boring to just talk about "acceptable" cards all day long, especially when the arguments about those cards have happened approximately 32675475478 times already. I would MUCH rather think about what would happen if WOTC dropped a bomb like Jar on the format than the little that would likely happen if cards like Tax or Twist came off.

It is a nice thought exercise, sure. But in the same post to list a bunch of cards you'd like to see unbanned then claim you'd "like to see desire come off too, but it might be too powerful"... That implied to me you don't think cards on this unban list are too powerful. And I'd have to disagree with Jar being remotely safe. And that is where I am coming from.

[DragoFireheart]

If there is too much of a blue-saturation within the coming months, would the idea of banning Mental Misstep be a good idea?

[Gheizen64]

If there is too much of a blue-saturation within the coming months, would the idea of banning Mental Misstep be a good idea?

WotC would never ban an answer card (drain isn't an answer card, it's an engine). If anything they'll ban SnT or Brainstorm. Especially if next week Hive mind continue to place in tournaments WotC will cry all over and ban SnT because it make design space "narrower" ("wee i can't design anymore a 15 mana creature that win the game, how fucking bad!" maybe using an hardcast clause next time? so zzz).

Also we are still waiting for Bad Tax and Bad Vise, thx.

[Shawon]

More unbannings, less bannings, I say. Mana Vault, Earthcraft, etc.

[Gheizen64]

More unbannings, less bannings, I say. Mana Vault, Earthcraft, etc.

Vault is too good, see the thread of "unban decklist challenge".

[Admiral_Arzar]

Vault is too good, see the thread of "unban decklist challenge".

*Yawn* Until the card is unbanned, we'll never know if it is actually "too good." Grim Monolith and Metalworker haven't turned the format upside down. Otherwise, we have no precedent for Vault as it has been banned for the entire existence of the format.

[TorpidNinja]

If there is too much of a blue-saturation within the coming months, would the idea of banning Mental Misstep be a good idea?

No.

[Gheizen64]

*Yawn* Until the card is unbanned, we'll never know if it is actually "too good." Grim Monolith and Metalworker haven't turned the format upside down. Otherwise, we have no precedent for Vault as it has been banned for the entire existence of the format.

A decklist that is actually too strong is pretty good evidence. Of course, if you prefer theorycrafting, that's ok too.

[Admiral_Arzar]

A decklist that is actually too strong is pretty good evidence. Of course, if you prefer theorycrafting, that's ok too.

Even if such a decklist exists, whether it is "too strong" or not would be based on subjective criteria. For example, saying that ANT with Mana Vault shits all over zoo is irrelevant, as ANT without it already does so. You would need to test the deck against all of its bad matchups - if they all of a sudden became positive, then the card is indeed a problem. I actually might do this myself at some point with various Storm decks - Mana Vault, Mind's Desire, Jar, etc, running whatever deck it was against a gaunlet of Team America, Dreadstill, Tempo Threshold, MUD or Chalice Aggro, and Merfolk (the latter for the "coin flip" matchup).

[Greenpoe]

Wizards should just print fixed versions of banned cards, such as Survival of the Fittest where you exile a card from your hand instead of discarding it (which kills Ooze combo, Retainers combo, Vengevine), or a mix between Vampiric Tutor, Demonic Tutor and Grim Tutor, using the worst of all three (Sorcery that costs BB and 3 life and puts a card on top of your library). If Grim Tutor sucks, and Demonic Tutor is broken, then a topdeck 2-mana tutor that costs life should be OK on power-level. Perhaps even Necroptence that costs BBBB or Balance that costs 1WW would be nice.

[Gheizen64]

Even if such a decklist exists, whether it is "too strong" or not would be based on subjective criteria. For example, saying that ANT with Mana Vault shits all over zoo is irrelevant, as ANT without it already does so. You would need to test the deck against all of its bad matchups - if they all of a sudden became positive, then the card is indeed a problem. I actually might do this myself at some point with various Storm decks - Mana Vault, Mind's Desire, Jar, etc, running whatever deck it was against a gaunlet of Team America, Dreadstill, Tempo Threshold, MUD or Chalice Aggro, and Merfolk (the latter for the "coin flip" matchup).

I dunno if everyone here lately is purposely trolling or high as robbie williams, but what you're saying has already been done. Not every card has been tested obviously, and testing isn't perfect since it ignore the shift in the meta, however that's a starting point and go beyond the usual "OMG UNBAN OMG".

Also i'd like you to avoid assuming that i'm retard with that Zoo vs AnT and whatsnot, thanks.

EDIT: i see you've even posted in that topic, so i'm not sure anymore what to do of this conversation.

[Koby]

Wizards should just print fixed versions of banned cards, such as Survival of the Fittest where you exile a card from your hand instead of discarding it (which kills Ooze combo, Retainers combo, Vengevine),

Fauna Shaman
Green Sun's Zenith

or a mix between Vampiric Tutor, Demonic Tutor and Grim Tutor, using the worst of all three (Sorcery that costs BB and 3 life and puts a card on top of your library). If Grim Tutor sucks, and Demonic Tutor is broken, then a topdeck 2-mana tutor that costs life should be OK on power-level.

Cruel Tutor

Perhaps even Necroptence that costs BBBB or Balance that costs 1WW would be nice.

Necrologia
Restore Balance

[Admiral_Arzar]

Not every card has been tested obviously, and testing isn't perfect since it ignore the shift in the meta, however that's a starting point and go beyond the usual "OMG UNBAN OMG".

Also i'd like you to avoid assuming that i'm retard with that Zoo vs AnT and whatsnot, thanks.

EDIT: i see you've even posted in that topic, so i'm not sure anymore what to do of this conversation.

You answered your own question with the first line - not every card has been tested, and they likely haven't been tested against the right decks. I wasn't attempting to make you look like a retard (and apologize if I came off that way), that was just the first example that popped into my head - any deck will seem absurd if you test it against an already awesome matchup.

@ Rukcus: I don't think Necro and Balance can be printed at reasonable costs - their effects are just too absurd (Remember Yawgmoth's Bargain? That's when they tried to "fix" Necro).

[Sims]

@ Rukcus: I don't think Necro and Balance can be printed at reasonable costs - their effects are just too absurd (Remember Yawgmoth's Bargain? That's when they tried to "fix" Necro).

Well, to be fair, by "fixing it" they made it better. "Pay 1 life: Draw a card" is, i'm sure you'll agree, much better than "Pay 1 life: remove the top card of your library from the game and put it into your hand at the beginning of the next end step." While obviously 3 mana is much easier to get to than 6 even if it's more color intense, the effect is much more efficient at enabling combo to win right then and there.

Would Necro that actually delays the draw at 3BBB or 4BB be broken? If you're hardcasting it? Who knows, I'm inclined to say no. But people would find ways of cheating it in, and at that point it'd probably be less balanced.

[Koby]

Like we need more reasons to make Show and Tell broken...

Would Necro that actually delays the draw at 3BBB or 4BB be broken? If you're hardcasting it? Who knows, I'm inclined to say no. But people would find ways of cheating it in, and at that point it'd probably be less balanced.

Swamp, Ritual x2, Lotus Petal - Necro @ 6 mana. Not any more broken than Ad Nauseum, but any amount of black mana in the cost won't matter. These decks will already be maxing out Ritual effects either way.