[Deck] The Rock

[KobeBryan]

What would I needle?

1) 43 Lands: Maze of Ith and Wasteland are legitimate targets, true. But, I'd rather have Extirpate in this slot.

2) Painter-Grindstone: True, it's good here, but I've also got removal, Grip, and Extirpate against Intuition. It'll be rough beats for them.

3) BUGStill: Extirpate and Grip are good, as is Vindicate. Needle would also be good, but you can't have everything. Plus, Deed, Mental Misstep, and other cards can be rough. Again, it's good here, I'll give you that.

4) U/w Landstill: I'd say it's not as good here if they're running Repeals. That just hurts.

-----

So yes, true, it's good against Jace, but you have to land and stick it. I'd prefer to get there with Thrun, Extirpate, and Teeg. The 43 Lands matchup is worse, but with more Extirpates, gets better.

As well, what do you cut for Needles? You auto-lose to Affinity if you don't run Deed/Rod; your combo matchup is abysmal if not for Cannonist, Rod, Extirpate, and Teeg; Thrun is your win-con against Uw and partly against BUGstill; Teeg is great against tons of stuff, including Natural Order, Jace, Stax, etc.; you'll die to Dredge if you don't run at least 6 pieces of hate and virtual hate (tutors are virtual hate); you need Deeds to gain advantage against Zoo, Goblins, and Merfolk.

To me, my back is up against the wall and I don't have enough slots as is. To me, Runed Halo, Needle, and Cannonist were the weakest slots in my experience at the GP. Extirpate would have been the tits, but I want both Cannonist and Extirpate.

-Matt

i'm running as many extirpates as you are. The only thing i don't have that you have are Krosan grips.

You do have an extra deed/EE than I do.

[KobeBryan]

What would I needle?

1) 43 Lands: Maze of Ith and Wasteland are legitimate targets, true. But, I'd rather have Extirpate in this slot.

2) Painter-Grindstone: True, it's good here, but I've also got removal, Grip, and Extirpate against Intuition. It'll be rough beats for them.

3) BUGStill: Extirpate and Grip are good, as is Vindicate. Needle would also be good, but you can't have everything. Plus, Deed, Mental Misstep, and other cards can be rough. Again, it's good here, I'll give you that.

4) U/w Landstill: I'd say it's not as good here if they're running Repeals. That just hurts.

-----

So yes, true, it's good against Jace, but you have to land and stick it. I'd prefer to get there with Thrun, Extirpate, and Teeg. The 43 Lands matchup is worse, but with more Extirpates, gets better.

As well, what do you cut for Needles? You auto-lose to Affinity if you don't run Deed/Rod; your combo matchup is abysmal if not for Cannonist, Rod, Extirpate, and Teeg; Thrun is your win-con against Uw and partly against BUGstill; Teeg is great against tons of stuff, including Natural Order, Jace, Stax, etc.; you'll die to Dredge if you don't run at least 6 pieces of hate and virtual hate (tutors are virtual hate); you need Deeds to gain advantage against Zoo, Goblins, and Merfolk.

To me, my back is up against the wall and I don't have enough slots as is. To me, Runed Halo, Needle, and Cannonist were the weakest slots in my experience at the GP. Extirpate would have been the tits, but I want both Cannonist and Extirpate.

-Matt

i'm running as many extirpates as you are. The only thing i don't have that you have are Krosan grips.

You do have an extra deed/EE than I do.

[Seems Good]

I'd like to get everyone to weigh in on the debate of our two main tutor package options, Stoneforge Mystic vs. Green Sun's Zenith. It seems like almost everyone agrees on some of the bare essentials that almost everyone's list runs currently, but then there are about 7-10 slots worth of "discretionary" cards, slots usually filled with one of the two packages. Unfortunately, it seems like our deck does not have room for both, but I suppose that is worth debating as well.

The packages should look somewhat like this:

Stoneforge Mystic tutor package

3-4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice


Green Sun's Zenith tutor package

3-4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
0-1 Kitchen Finks
0-1 Terravore


Obviously some of the cards in both packages can be played maindeck without their tutor counterparts (Jitte, Pridemage, etc.) but this should be more of a debate of which package is most effective against a generic current legacy meta.

One of the main issues this debate brings up for me is sideboard options. While I personally feel the SFM package is stronger game 1, undoubtedly the GSZ package gives us access to so many more sideboard options. Don't get me wrong, I like the possibility of siding in different swords game 2-3, but I don't think that's anywhere near as strong as adding green hate creatures. Also, there is of course the merit of being able to ramp turn 1 with GSZ for arbor.

[novatinhu]

I'd like to get everyone to weigh in on the debate of our two main tutor package options, Stoneforge Mystic vs. Green Sun's Zenith. It seems like almost everyone agrees on some of the bare essentials that almost everyone's list runs currently, but then there are about 7-10 slots worth of "discretionary" cards, slots usually filled with one of the two packages. Unfortunately, it seems like our deck does not have room for both, but I suppose that is worth debating as well.

The packages should look somewhat like this:

Stoneforge Mystic tutor package

3-4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice


Green Sun's Zenith tutor package

3-4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
0-1 Kitchen Finks
0-1 Terravore


Obviously some of the cards in both packages can be played maindeck without their tutor counterparts (Jitte, Pridemage, etc.) but this should be more of a debate of which package is most effective against a generic current legacy meta.

One of the main issues this debate brings up for me is sideboard options. While I personally feel the SFM package is stronger game 1, undoubtedly the GSZ package gives us access to so many more sideboard options. Don't get me wrong, I like the possibility of siding in different swords game 2-3, but I don't think that's anywhere near as strong as adding green hate creatures. Also, there is of course the merit of being able to ramp turn 1 with GSZ for arbor.

Im testing a deck with both tutors package, what do you think?


// Lands
4 Wasteland
3 Marsh Flats
3 Scrubland
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Plains
1 Maze of Ith
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Swamp
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Forest

// Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
2 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Birds of Paradise
2 Qasali Pridemage

// Spells
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Vindicate
3 Mox Diamond
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
2 Green Sun's Zenith

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Perish
SB: 2 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Serenity
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 Runed Halo
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 2 Pernicious Deed


Im playing in a meta full of agro,becouse that i cut hymn to tourach to make a mora agro version of junk.

[Arsenal]

Hymn to Tourach is one of the most powerful spells in Legacy and I feel honored that I have access to that card when playing Rock, I don't understand why you'd opt to run Thoughtseize (losing 2 life and trading 1-for-1 seems poor in an aggro meta) over Hymn to Tourach if you're making that kind of cut.

[KobeBryan]

Hymn to Tourach is one of the most powerful spells in Legacy and I feel honored that I have access to that card when playing Rock, I don't understand why you'd opt to run Thoughtseize (losing 2 life and trading 1-for-1 seems poor in an aggro meta) over Hymn to Tourach if you're making that kind of cut.

Hymn is essential. Same with Thoughtseize/Duress/IOK. I would dedicate 8 slots for these powerful cards.

[Arsenal]

Regardless of meta concerns, I don't think anyone can make a reasonable case for cutting Hymn, although I think a case could be made for cutting Thoughtseize in a fast aggro meta; when facing a zerg-rush deck, I almost always want to max out on actual removal (spot or mass) as opposed to 1-for-1 discard that costs me precious life to use.

[sdematt]

Most of the time against aggro, you're boarding discard out for removal. Much of the time in game 1 however, you'll want discard, as you won't always be facing Zoo, Goblins, etc. Even then, keeping a few Thoughtseize is fine, as taking their Lackey/Nacatl can be crucial.

Regarding the core vs. open slots, I wrote this up on a sheet of paper, but I can't believe I didn't post it. I had a discussion for 2 hours with my friend and everything, but didn't even post it. How stupid.

"Core"
23-24 Lands

4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf (4 is debatable, but let's just carry on)

3 Vindicate
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares

-----

In every deck I've seen, I've seen something like this. Most lists play at least 3 Vindicate, but Pulse is also fine, you get the idea. Now, that gives us ~50 cards that are decently locked in. So, what else do we add?

We've usually seen stuff like this:

2-4 SFM
2-3 Equipment
2 GSZ
3 Top
3 Moxen
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Teeg
1 Thrun
1 Crucible/Loam
1 Deed/EE
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Birds of Paradise

So the question is, with your 10-11 slots, what do you want to do? I mean, you can cut to Goyfs to give you 12-13 slots, depending on if you decide to run 23 or 24 lands or if you go to 61.

1. Personally, I think you can't leave home without Top, plain and simple. 7 slots left.

2. I most definitely think Qasalis are great. But, are they better than Stoneforges and equipment? Could I be running better with Teeg, Qasali, and Thrun and possibly removal, or opt for Stoneforges? I honestly haven't ground enough games to test SFM yet. I plan on grinding games with SFM two weeks from today, for about 15 hours. But, either way, I'm adding 2 creatures. 5 slots left.

3. With 5 slots left, you can run Mox Diamonds and the 2 equipment, or other stuff. I'll opt for other stuff. GSZ has been stellar for me, giving me more threats and letting me access Teeg and Thrun more easily from out of the board. I can't not run it. 3 slots left.

4. 2 slots will probably go to equipment if I decide to run SFM instead of Qasali. If I run Qasali instead, this would probably be 1 Teeg and 1 Thrun, or possibly back to 2 Jittes. Time will tell.

5. 1 slot left, but this is the 61st slot if you're running 24 lands. What do you run in a 61st slot? I'm not interested in running the 1-of Elspeth, because at 4 CMC, she does hose my curve a bit. I'm thinking either: Loam for Wastelands, Fetches, and Digging via Dredge; Deed for being super awesome against many decks; Crucible to Wastelock/survive a Wastelock against Landstill; Teeg/Thrun since Thrun is a beast, but the CMC hurts a bit. Possibly Teeg, so I can begin him out of the board, and open an Extirpate slot.

Again, it depends how you want to play your game.

-Matt

[kubalonek]

3 SFM + 2 Equips is enough. Cut jitte due to the fact that batterskull against merfolks is much better weapon than Jitte. As for swords it is very meta dependent. I like for now SoBaM. A lot of merfolks and tarmogoyfs arround. So this sounds right.

[KobeBryan]

3 SFM + 2 Equips is enough. Cut jitte due to the fact that batterskull against merfolks is much better weapon than Jitte. As for swords it is very meta dependent. I like for now SoBaM. A lot of merfolks and tarmogoyfs arround. So this sounds right.

I think Sword of LAS might be the best in this current meta filled with rampant stoneforge decks. The black and white protection is perfect against any removal.

[Dzra]

So far in testing, I've dropped Metamorph (possibly to the side) for another MD Bitterblossom and Gerrard's Verdict. I'm running SoFI MD with SoBM SB. SoBM also comes in against various combo and control decks because it's like grocery shopping when you bring in Extirpate.

I had room to SB Pithing Needle/Revoker, but every MU that I wanted to bring it in, I was having trouble cutting something. Perhaps I'm undervaluing Needle-effects, but it just doesn't seem as powerful as many of our other options.

[KobeBryan]

Do you guys finding Hymn difficult to cast on turn 2?

having two black mana isn't always available.

[Arsenal]

Black sources in my deck:

4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
3 Scrubland
1 Swamp
3 Mox Diamond

I've never had a problem getting BB on turn 2 unless I open with 3x Wasteland or something terrible like that (which is an auto-mulligan).

[Dzra]

Yeah, occasionally I've had trouble. More so when I ran the KotR package (Maze, Karakas). Now I'm only down to 6 of 24 non-black sources. Sometimes it means a mull, but sometimes not if I have enough gas and other 2-drops.

4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Scrubland
4 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Bloodstained Mire
(+4 Mox Diamond)

On a side note... has anyone ever found themselves wanting a 2nd basic Swamp? I have occasionally... I'm considering cutting a Bayou for it, but I think the times when I'd want another basic Swamp are fairly fringe.

[sdematt]

I'm running the 2nd basic Swamp, and I've had no trouble with black requirements, but sometimes I do with green, so I was thinking of possibly running another Forest instead of the other Swamp, but time will tell.

-Matt

[Dzra]

With Green? I can maybe see that if you are running GSZ. I think for GSZ builds, you might want to be running Windswepts over Marsh Flats. Unless Thrun is a major plan of yours, I don't think another Forest is needed though.

[KobeBryan]

this is my land count

lands (23)
1x bojuka bog
1x forest
1x maze of ith
1x plain
1x swamp
1x savannah
1x karakas
1x scrubland
3x bayou
3x wasteland
1x volrath's stronghold
3x marshflats
4x verdant catacombs

so i have
4x verdant catacombs, 3x marsh flats, 3x bayou, 1x scrubland, 1x swamp, 1x bojuka bog (i don't count this as a swamp really)

some times i do run into trouble if my opening hand is 1x verdant catacombs, 1x wasteland, 1x utility land

[sdematt]

I'm running GSZ, with Thrun out of the board.

-Matt

[KobeBryan]

I just got my butt handed to me against Goblins...any suggestions?

[DECK]

Creatures (14)
1x dryad Arbor
3x tarmogoyf
4x dark confidant
4x knights of the reliquary
2x qusali pridemage

instant (4)
4x swords to plowshares

sorcery (11)
3x green sun's zenith
4x hymn to tourach
4x thoughtseize

others (9)
3x sensei's diving top
2x maelstrom pulse
3x mox diamond
1x vindicate

lands (23)
1x bojuka bog
1x forest
1x maze of ith
1x plain
1x swamp
1x savannah
1x karakas
1x scrubland
3x bayou
4x wasteland
1x volrath's stronghold
3x marshflats
4x verdant catacombs

sideboard
1x null rod
1x thrun the last troll
3x extirpate
1x pernicious deed
1x ethersworn cannonist
2x enlightened tutor
2x gaddock teeg
1x tormod's crypt
2x pithing needle
1x engineered explosive

[/DECK]

[damionblackgear]

I just got my butt handed to me against Goblins...any suggestions

I mentioned adjusting the GSZ package once. Spore Frog would be an addition for that matchup. You have to land a Bob to keep drawing but there ways of doing that still. With your E.Tutor package you could run a SoFI or a Jitte. Both are good there. Even something like Dueling Grounds can be E.Tutor'd for.

Again, I'm a firm believer that you have too much graveyard hate and would suggest pulling from there for room.