The good thing about Wayfarer is that he can create card advantage for costing only one Mana. Especially tutoring Wastelands is nasty, but getting Canopies and your KotR-1-offs is of course very good, too. And yes, it is true, some games are solely won on the back of Wayfarer. When your opponent has no removal but wants multiple Nonbasics in play he is in trouble. When your opponent has Removal and wants to have multiple lands in play Wayfarer will be a T1 Removal magnet like MoR (a good thing). He is also effective in denying opposing Mana Denial.Originally Posted by Morte
I don't know if you play him correctly. There is a good number of tricks to get activations out of him when you and your opponent have an equal number of lands in play. I will just list the ones that I can think of atm:
- you can play a fetchland as your next land and not crack it yet. When your opponent plays his next land you can fetch and in response activate Wayfarer. Unless your opponent skips his land drop he can't do anything about it. T1 Mother of Runes, T2 Wayfarer or T1 Wayfarer + T2 Hierarch/StoP would be a good and fast sequence for this play but it is still effective when both are already on 2-3 lands.
- you can bounce a land with Scryb Ranger. Maybe you can even untap the Wayfarer with it for full value if you have the time and the Mana.
- if one of your lands is a Wasteland you can Waste his land and activate Wayfarer in reponse, getting a second Waste. Especially turn 1 Wayfarer, T2 Wasteland + 2-drop can be a deadly combination.
- you can stop playing lands because your curve is lower. In Vial versions this is even better for obvious reasons but your Hierarchs can "cheat" on the land count, too.
- you can sac away your Canopies and chain into more Canopies later in the game when you need spells instead of lands.
The disadvantages of Wayfarer are that he has no combat impact, is usually a terrible topdeck and that he costs you quite a lot of Tempo before any advantage kicks in.
@Morte: your list looks awesome
Lets put it this way: if Wayfarer was worth using, we'd see him more. It's not like he's new deck: he's been around since UW Tempo. If anything he seems like Win-more.
Used to run Wayfarer and cut him. Didn't like him, even with Mox Diamond. I'd rather just get more Knights of the Reliquary who do stuff better.
Also I have the double post issue a lot lately, and I use Firefox.
This is the version I've come to after some testing:
4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Horizon Canopy
3 Wasteland
2 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Birds of Paradise
2 Tarmogoyf
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Eternal Witness
4 Mental Misstep
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sylvan Library
2 Parallax Wave
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
+2 flex slots I'm varying between the third Witness/Library/Pridemage/Wave, the fourth KotR, a Scavenging Ooze or 1-2 Elspeth.
Moms I just found not to do enough. It's a card with a lot of history but Mental Misstep + Parallax Wave do as much to protect your guys while also giving you a better handle against combo and more offensive power. Parallax Wave is an insanely good card in the deck, one which gives you utter dominance of the board for several turns. It's also really flexible; it can be a one sided Wrath to clear the way for killing them, or stall their gameplan for several turns, or protect your own guys. One of my favorite tricks is to exile your own Witness with the last counter and get it back the next turn, which is pretty much always going to seal the game if they can't interrupt the chain. This is also why I've bumped up the Witness count and played it with up to 3x. Witness recursion is also a reason for the use of SoLS over SoFF, which would be my next choice.
Other than that it's a pretty orthodox build I think. Library is a fantastic card, 2x Goyf is I think the ideal number, because it's never dead and very often the best GSZ target when you need to Just Go Kill Them. Or just get a big-assed blocker. Also reduces your vulnerability to Massacre because seriously does Europe know that card exists?
Elspeth I think I like better in the board to bring in against slower decks/control. I'm also running a playset of Mana Tithes in the board to compliment Misstep + Teegs for the combo matchup, with a varying number of Ethersworn Canonists. Scavenging Ooze to Zenith and Bojuka Bog to grab with Knight is the main anti-graveyard strategy. I'm also running a Dauntless Escort to grab as the anti-wrath plan.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
I like the suggestion for Mana Tithe against combo. That's a pretty neat solution to Hive Mine matchup too, as well as Show and Tell decks. Good find IBA!
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Parallax Wave seems really good, but also a bit slow. What matchups has it been good in? I've been testing Dueling Grounds in the board, which has been amazing. If stuck, it just single-handedly wins against Folk/Gobbos/Affinity/etc. Just drop a Knight or a creature with equipment and it'll almost always be bigger than your opponent's threats, especially with our exalted triggers. Goes very well with an active Batterskull.
Could you post your SB, IBA? Seems like you have some interesting choices in there.
I actually can't think offhand of a matchup where Wave isn't good, although it's obviously a bit slow to come onboard. It is a bit slow so less useful in racing combo. Even against a dedicated control list, however, it's useful for protection. Your best targets are going to be things like Germ tokens or Knights of the Reliquary or any dude with a bunch of level counters.
The SB I'm less settled on, but at the moment it's something like;
4 Mana Tithe
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Loaming Shaman
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dauntless Escort
+ 1-2 flex slots that could be anything from Dueling Grounds, another Canonist or Pridemage or something, Phyrexian Revokers, Yavimaya Hollow to counter Deedstill, or whatever.
Of course you can't really optimize a sideboard as much as you can a maindeck, so that's mostly negotiable. I also think SoFF/Batterskull might be fine in the board. Maybe even a Lightning Greaves for control.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
I actually can't think offhand of a matchup where Wave isn't good, although it's obviously a bit slow to come onboard. It is a bit slow so less useful in racing combo. Even against a dedicated control list, however, it's useful for protection. Your best targets are going to be things like Germ tokens or Knights of the Reliquary or any dude with a bunch of level counters.
The SB I'm less settled on, but at the moment it's something like;
4 Mana Tithe
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Loaming Shaman
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dauntless Escort
+ 1-2 flex slots that could be anything from Dueling Grounds, another Canonist or Pridemage or something, Phyrexian Revokers, Yavimaya Hollow to counter Deedstill, or whatever.
Of course you can't really optimize a sideboard as much as you can a maindeck, so that's mostly negotiable. I also think SoFF/Batterskull might be fine in the board. Maybe even a Lightning Greaves for control.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
@IBA
You spend half of your SB for your worst Matchup(Combo). Even if it improves the odds from "very bad" into "still bad", i find it a waste of space. Let me explain why:
To beat combo you need either a clock or their AdN to fizzle. If you focus on the first one, leaving mana open to play a Mana Tithe can be contra productive. And there is another thing about Mana Tithe i don't like, it's far inferior to Spell Pierce and Daze. This deck can easily splash blue so you might give them a try if you want to slightly improve your combo matchup.
I accepted the autoloss against combo, so i can pack my sideboard with control- and graveyard-hate, removal plus Wingshards against NO/S&T. If you expect a lot of stormdecks, you should consider to play another deck.
Further your deck lacks Chokes, im pretty sure you tested this card, as most of the decks on TC and in this thread play this card, so you might give us some enlightment why one should not play this card?
For reference, the current core of my non-ET SB:
2x Path to Exile
3x Choke
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Qasali Pridemage
2x Krosan Grip/Oblivion Ring split
1x Gaddock Teeg
(MD contains Batterskull, SoFaF and Thrun)
Parallax Wave is a nice find IBA. I hope you are not too annoyed by my attacks. If I didn't respect you a lot I wouldn't have bothered. Parallax Wave was the best card in Angel Stompy back then and should still be awesome. Can't say if it is good enough but I have a good feeling. Especially the Witness synergy seems great and I don't mind the second Witness at all, it is usually a great draw.
For the Mental Misstep vs. Mother of Runes discussion. I do not understand why they exclude each other. Sure both counter Swords to Plowshares but Misstepping a Sword directed at Mother of Runes is not bad at all. And in the other case, if MoR already protects your creatures, you can throw the Misstep at a Brainstorm. Atm I play 3-4 MoR and 3 Missteps main deck (with the ability to go up to 4 of each post board). I would rather reduce Noble Hierarchs before I cut Mother of Runes because MoR is a better one-drop.
I don't see the need for a second Dryad Arbor. Unless I have one in my opening hand and want to GSZ turn 1 I never wished for a second copy. Maybe I miss something but this seems like a wasted slot. I would also run an addional Stoneforge over the second Goyf.
I don't think Combo is an autoloss (bzka). With Missteps and a fast clock plus SB hate we have a shot.
I can only repeat my suggestion of siding in Thorn of Amethyst if you want to spend slots for that matchup. It is like Mana Tithe, but on all their spells instead of just one. It disrupts their search, their library manipulation, their bounce, their Combo. And it gets (felt) exponentially better in multiples. Sure you lose the surprise effect but it is just a way better effect.
@Tao
Maybe our definition of autoloss is different. In my opinion it is about 15% and lower.
With both a playset of MMS and Thorn of Amethyst, you need 1 copy of each in you opener, plus 2-3 lands/ramp and 1-2 decent beaters/jitte. Of course you need that draw in 2 out of 3 games . Any half-decent Comboplayer (half-decent = player who has a good matchup against the goldfish) will combo off against your goddraw most of the time.
I think Wave is the perfect "bomb" slot for deck, personally. I mean KotR and SFM are kind of bomby, but you really want at least one card in the deck that has the potential to immediately end the game. Often it actually leads to a much quicker victory than NO would, without the problem of either drawing the wrong half of the combo or of being unable to salvage a position where Progenitus is forced to stay back and block.
And nah, I do not let myself hold onto grudges involving arguing over Magic cards.
Except maybe against Anusien just because have you read that guy's posts honestly.
I am quite fond of the Hierarchs so I'm not so sure about that. Unlike, say, the Rangers, I think Mom is a good card in this deck, it just was the least good card fighting to get into the 60, and there's really a limit to how many creature-saving effects you want. Misstep and Wave do more than just save creatures, but they have a lot of overlap with the same function. Other people with different evaluations of card strengths might cut a Hierarch and a Goyf and use a flex slot in the same list for a Mom, I just found it weaker than all the other options.For the Mental Misstep vs. Mother of Runes discussion. I do not understand why they exclude each other. Sure both counter Swords to Plowshares but Misstepping a Sword directed at Mother of Runes is not bad at all. And in the other case, if MoR already protects your creatures, you can throw the Misstep at a Brainstorm. Atm I play 3-4 MoR and 3 Missteps main deck (with the ability to go up to 4 of each post board). I would rather reduce Noble Hierarchs before I cut Mother of Runes because MoR is a better one-drop.
I frequently use the second copy. Not just because I had a habit of drawing the one of in my opening grip, but also just because using fetchlands to counter Edicts or to turn on a lonely Jitte or Sword is golden. I have absolutely never regretted having it.I don't see the need for a second Dryad Arbor. Unless I have one in my opening hand and want to GSZ turn 1 I never wished for a second copy. Maybe I miss something but this seems like a wasted slot. I would also run an addional Stoneforge over the second Goyf.
Maybe, I haven't really tested Thorn. Thorn gives them more information though, often they just walk right into Mana Tithe. Or play around it, which is even better because then it's a Thorn that doesn't affect you and you don't have to pay for. But without testing I'm not going to say which is better; I imagine which combo decks in particular you're fighting against often matters. Mana Tithe is pretty weak against High Tide for instance, or Elves, although those are also the matchups where Misstep is strongest. I think Mana Tithe is clearly better against ShowandHive though.I don't think Combo is an autoloss (bzka). With Missteps and a fast clock plus SB hate we have a shot.
I can only repeat my suggestion of siding in Thorn of Amethyst if you want to spend slots for that matchup. It is like Mana Tithe, but on all their spells instead of just one. It disrupts their search, their library manipulation, their bounce, their Combo. And it gets (felt) exponentially better in multiples. Sure you lose the surprise effect but it is just a way better effect.
@bzka: I mean it's worked okay in testing so far. You definitely don't always keep the one white open, you have to be a good judge of when the opponent is going to go off. Generally you need to get a threat out before you start leaving mana open. Combo is still going to be a bad matchup overall, but I think it's worth shoring up. It's also worth noting that you're often going to be bringing in Teegs + Mana Tithe (along with Escort and Elspeth) against some control decks, to keep them off of Wrath/Damnation/Deed with Wastelands.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
Few words about ideas posted upper:
@Parallax Wave - I don't know how your test was, it's only good vs Aggro/Middle Aggro Mirror - cutting such a bombs like's KotRs and such useful creatures with much less cost like Qasali Pridemage (useful in mirrors/control/exalted etc) is wrong in my eyes. 4 Mana enchantments which temporary remove creatures from the game isn't best way imo. It can be on sb on Middle-Aggro etc, but one pridemage can just blow up this enchantment. It also blind card vs combo which is our weakness - so this slots should cover it not next dead card with 4cmc - please post test results vs mix meta with it.
@Second Dryad - its useful, but also brings impact on starting hand - hand with Dryad is good only if it is your 3-4th land on hand otherwise you are in dengerous with screw after any removal.
@Mana Tithe - Force Spike is good only once. This card can be overplayed so easy so it's not worth.
--------------------
Card which I tested on side and MD:
@Srugical Extraction - Very good card after tests, Free mana Extripate, which is mostly big surprise (no black at all, except Bojuka) won me a game vs Aggro Loam and makes easier MU vs dredge. It also was MVP vs Sneak/S&T/Hive Mind after he cast Intuition.
@Engineered Explosives - This should be looked when your going on blind meta - its tutorable answer vs masses of Toxes (EtW/Zombies from Bridges), and can be also used vs Aragothian Enchantress, also can be used as removal.
@Aven Mindcensor in number 3 MD - this dude is really good in 70% of MU. Blocking important things like SFM/GSZ/Fetches/Infernal Tutor/Merchant Scroll etc.., and Flash + Flying which is great with equips - great in Mirrors.
@One MD Birds of Paradise - slow down exalted triggers, but can save your ass vs Hive Mind Pacts.
My testing was pretty phenomenal with the card, I thought I was pretty clear on that. First off I would say that you really do maindeck in Legacy against aggro and aggro-control decks. Like StP is weak against dedicated control and combo, but you play 4 of them because that's a relatively small portion of the meta.
Against a deck running creatures Wave is an offensive bomb. Against a deck running sweepers Wave is insurance. The only times I've actually ever felt inclined to side it out has been against combo decks that didn't involve Elves or Emrakul. Which, you know, doesn't leave a whole lot.
I would recommend trying the card out because it's not really obvious how good the card is to people who haven't played it before; I don't think anyone who had seen it in action when, say, Angel Stompy was a real deck would make the same kind of argument.
Also, yes, someone can use a Pridemage to spend 3 mana to kill your 4 mana enchantment. However, if you've dropped it they must have already had something to take with Wave. That means that at the worst in that scenario they've gained one mana but probably lost an attack phase, the ability to activity utility guys, any tokens, level counters, and equips they paid for.
Now it can be less good with a Pridemage already on board, but that's a scenario you have to play around when you get it. Equipment represents an equal or greater opportunity for lost tempo to a Pridemage, but you don't seem to be arguing to take out the equipment, so my assumptions is that you don't understand how much Wave alters the board state when it comes into play.
This just isn't true with pressure. Mana Tithe is generally going to be better when they play around it than when they don't. The only reason this card would start to be bad against most combo is if you're unable to apply pressure for some reason.@Mana Tithe - Force Spike is good only once. This card can be overplayed so easy so it's not worth.
Surgical Extraction, on the other hand, can actually be completely played around, even in the scenarios where it's actually good. The deck has access to better general graveyard hate, so I would strongly recommend against this unless Loam decks are saturating your meta.@Srugical Extraction - Very good card after tests, Free mana Extripate, which is mostly big surprise (no black at all, except Bojuka) won me a game vs Aggro Loam and makes easier MU vs dredge. It also was MVP vs Sneak/S&T/Hive Mind after he cast Intuition.
The deck drops so many permanents that cost 1 or 2. Running EE seems suicidal.@Engineered Explosives - This should be looked when your going on blind meta - its tutorable answer vs masses of Toxes (EtW/Zombies from Bridges), and can be also used vs Aragothian Enchantress, also can be used as removal.
I think it depends on the meta, but I could see where it would be good.@Aven Mindcensor in number 3 MD - this dude is really good in 70% of MU. Blocking important things like SFM/GSZ/Fetches/Infernal Tutor/Merchant Scroll etc.., and Flash + Flying which is great with equips - great in Mirrors.
Also it's just good to have a grabbable flyer. I also played a game recently where it single handedly won against a board involving Ensnaring Bridge and a Pithing Needle on Pridemage.@One MD Birds of Paradise - slow down exalted triggers, but can save your ass vs Hive Mind Pacts.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
@IBA about EE - after EtW it doesn't matter how creatures you have for 0.. it is single shot win, also take a note that with actual mana base u can even set up EE for 4 :] (narrow usable)
Surgical is nice as one of vs combo - if it come it will be good as surprise, it can also take off problematic cards which is hard to handle for example removal in mirror. I think this card has nice use, but not more slots than one in SB.
Playing as combo player the worst thing which you can is diversity from many angles, static hate, counters, extripates, and clock - if you build resilent SB which can work in many ways on many situations - it will be the best SB.
How many ETW decks are there in your meta? This seems less than relevant.
This is the kind of thing I don't understand. If the card was good you would at least want more in your SB, even if you couldn't fit them in. It's not a tutor target or a late game card; if you're fighting combo you need help in the short term. This is the kind of thing people side in because they think they'll just mise into it in the rare instance that it's relevant, which is just fucking awful. Would you play one StP and just hope to draw it when your opponent had a creature?Surgical is nice as one of vs combo - if it come it will be good as surprise, it can also take off problematic cards which is hard to handle for example removal in mirror. I think this card has nice use, but not more slots than one in SB.
It looks like you threw extirpates in the middle there and again it's really not that relevant most of the time.Playing as combo player the worst thing which you can is diversity from many angles, static hate, counters, extripates, and clock - if you build resilent SB which can work in many ways on many situations - it will be the best SB.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
@IBA I'm tired repeating it again, its good to have many ways hate on different combo decks.
Lets talk about sb plan, I actually use this one on blind meta:
Gaddock Teeg MD, and 3 Missteps MD and Ooze.
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Choke
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Wing Shards
SB: 1 Phyrexian Metamorph
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 2 Life from the Loam
SB: 1 Serenity
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
Let see which MU is bad without SB:
1. Belcher
2. ANT
3. TES
4. Spiral Tide
5. Hive Mind
6. Enchantress - yes its bad pridemages want help.
7. Dredge - without nut hand it isn't favorable
8. Lands - still not great
9. Reanimator
10. Spanish Inquisition
11. Sneak Attack
That's all bad MU. Mostly combo decks, other MU which aren't great but mostly 50/50 are:
Zoo, Cat Sligh, Boros and Mirror middle-range.
2 Wing Shards
and also vs Control and heavy removal decks:
2 Life from the Loam
any blue:
1 Choke
Let see how I build SB:
GY hate:
Tormod's Crypt, Bojuka Bog, Surgical Extraction - better with Reanimator, Lands, Dredge ( 3 cards - 3 decks) + E.Tutor for search - 4 slots MD out.
Storm hate:
2 Ethersworn Canonist, Surgical Extraction, EE - better with SI, ANT, TES, Spiral Tide, Belcher (4 cards - 5 decks) + E.Tutor - 5 slots from MD out.
S&T:
Surgical Extraction, 2 Ethersworn Canonist (only vs Hive Mind), Phyrexian Metamorph - Hive Mind, Sneak Attack both decks use Intuition - vs Hive Mind its hard, Gaddock helps, also Canonist with Pridemage on table before its too late - (4 slots - 2 decks more) + E.Tutor
Enchantments/Artifacts:
Serenity, Krosan Grip, EE(vs A. Enchantress),2 Ethersworn Canonist (vs Enchantress to slow it down) also Surgical Extraction (vs E.Presence) - Affinity, MUD, Enchantress - (5 slots - 3 more decks) + E.Tutor
That simply cover most of worst MU. Most of that cards are breaking for them, some of them are so-so hate but works on many other decks - I like this philosophy - have a chance to put many different hate cards vs your bad MU decks.
Did anyone think of the synergy between our own Pridemages and Parallax Wave? Remove all opposing creatures from the game, response destroy it with Pridemage???
HOLY FUCKING COW!!!
Doesn't work due to oracle text.
Fading 5 (This enchantment comes into play with five fade counters on it. At the beginning of your upkeep, remove a fade counter from it. If you can't, sacrifice it.)
Remove a fade counter from Parallax Wave: Remove target creature from the game if Parallax Wave is in play.
When Parallax Wave leaves play, each player returns to play all cards other than Parallax Wave he or she owns removed from the game with Parallax Wave.
I, too, am saddened by this.
I did, although I didn't mention it because that's two cards and a bunch of mana already. I'm sure there's situations where it's really good to be able to do that, but it doesn't seem like it should come up often enough to be a main draw.
@Draener: You may be looking at an outdated wording.
Also, generally because no one on MWS seems to understand this:
Fading does not cause the permanent to die when the last counter is removed. Fading causes the permanent to die when you are unable to remove another counter. This is why they made Vanishing a new ability on Calciderm et al. (compare Blastoderm), because it was counter-intuitive to a lot of people.
I mean you can keep repeating it but that's not going to mean that Surgical Extraction is effective hate. Certainly not as a random one-of.
Like Mana Tithe is really good against people whose main plan against you is Wrath and Deed, especially in conjunction with Wasteland. Extirpate effects are good against Loam decks and Reanimator. In this they're no different than the answers you can actually tutor for like Ooze and Bojuka Bog.That simply cover most of worst MU. Most of that cards are breaking for them, some of them are so-so hate but works on many other decks - I like this philosophy - have a chance to put many different hate cards vs your bad MU decks.
Again, if the card were actually good you wouldn't say you wouldn't want more than one. You say something like that because it's good in a few niche situations and you convince yourself you're always going to draw it when you need it but only then.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
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