[Deck] Elves Combo

[danyul]

Yes! Please! I'm going to be playing at SCG Seattle this weekend so any crazy tech would be appreciated.

[theross]

If I had to play an event tomorrow, my list would be as follows:

2 Llanowar Elves
2 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
1 Fauna Shaman
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Vengevine
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Regal Force
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Intuition

4 Gaea's Cradle
3 Tropical Island
1 Dryad Arbor
7 Green Fetchlands
3 Forest

My sideboard would have some Dismember and Mortarpod for dudes, as well as a combination of graveyard hate including a single Scavenging Ooze and Faerie Macabre, probably backed up by some copies of Relic of Progenitus. Combo hate would probably be Thorn of Amethyst, although I have entertained the idea of a double splash for Cabal Therapy out of the board. A single Bayou in the main is all it would require so it's probably fine and Cabal Therapy is worth it. I'd want some Krosan Grips as well, which brings us to the following:

2 Dismember
2 Krosan Grip
1 Mortarpod
1 Emrakul
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Faerie Macabre
4 Cabal Therapy/Thorn of Amethyst

The Emrakul comes in against decks you need to race, namely other combo decks and is especially brutal against Painter. Cut a Forest for the Bayou in the main if you want Therapies and you should be set.

[lordofthepit]

What's a recommended decklist for someone who doesn't have Gaea's Cradles, but has the other cards for this deck (including duals, fetches, Natural Order, Intuition, etc.)?

[NihilObstat]

@MrSafety: Fortunately, most people have realized that the power of Summoner's Pact and GSZ far outweigh the marginal utility of Living Wish, although many proponents of the latter have not posted in a while, so this may also be a contributing factor to the newly found consensus.

Hey guys ^^
So I haven't been posting lately because, just as the ross, I haven't played a single Legacy tournament since the first week of june, and I only like to discuss when I'm testing or I have reports to debate. No one has been making top8's either so there isn't much new to talk about, I think :)

I tested the non-living wish list, and I wasn't totally sold on it though. I find Living Wish to be incredibly strong and versatile always, but it also has some negative aspects. I would say I like both options just as much, and maybe I would see them as a meta call or style call. I'm testing other decks at the moment and don't have time to further this.

On what I was completely sold was on the 4x Gaea's / 3x Gaea's + Living wish, definitely worth it, and they can free us from Archdruid, making the deck a bit more explosive ;)

I must say though, the ross, that the utility of Wish is not "marginal" as you say, it's actually huge and powerful, but at a big sideboard-space price, maybe...

[Mr. Safety]

I was thinking that Living Wish was key to a much more consistent Emrakul availability...if you can't Glimpse-draw into it, then you really need an alternative means of being able to finish your combo.

Here is my current list:

4x Llanowar Elves
3x Fyndhorn Elves
4x Elvish Visionary
4x Quirion Ranger
3x Elvish Archdruid
1x Priest of Titania
4x Nettle Sentinel
4x Birchlore Rangers
4x Heritage Druid
4x Wirewood Symbiote
1x Elvish Spirit Guide
1x Joraga Warcaller
1x Regal Force
1x Grapeshot
4x Glimpse of Nature
4x Summoner's Pact
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Wooded Foothills
9x Forest


I know there isn't an Emrakul in there...I'm working on that! I simply have had other projects eating up my resources, both $$$-wise and trade-wise. I do have the 2nd Regal Force available to me, and I know i need at least 2x GSZ's in the list.

This is my proposed new list, and I'm looking for some help with it:

4x Llanowar Elves
3x Fyndhorn Elves
4x Elvish Visionary
4x Quirion Dryad
4x Heritage Druid
4x Nettle Sentinel
4x Birchlore Rangers
1x Elvish Spirit Guide
1x Priest of Titania
1x Elvish Archdruid
1x Joraga Warcaller
2x Regal Force
4x Summoner's Pact
2x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Glimpse of Nature
1x Emrakul
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Wooded Foothills
1x Dryad Arbor
10x Forest


I increased the land count to 16 + 1 ESG, where I was playing 14 lands +1 ESG. I like the Dryad Arbor for some incredible acceleration turn 1 (Forest, GSZ into Dryad Arbor, Llanowar Elves. Potential for 4 mana turn 2 with another land drop!) This brings me to another card that typically doesn't see play in combo elves, but aggro lists have been using for a while: Sylvan Messenger

I know the card has been discussed ad-nauseum many times...I'm just bringing it up considering the new non-Living Wish builds as a way to potentially give you gas when needed.

[NihilObstat]

I was thinking that Living Wish was key to a much more consistent Emrakul availability...if you can't Glimpse-draw into it, then you really need an alternative means of being able to finish your combo.

I increased the land count to 16 + 1 ESG, where I was playing 14 lands +1 ESG. I like the Dryad Arbor for some incredible acceleration turn 1 (Forest, GSZ into Dryad Arbor, Llanowar Elves. Potential for 4 mana turn 2 with another land drop!) This brings me to another card that typically doesn't see play in combo elves, but aggro lists have been using for a while: Sylvan Messenger

The first reason why I say that Living Wish is super versatile is exactly that, that you indirectly have 3 or 4 Emrakuls in the deck, but then I don't see you running Wish in your list. Was that just a comment or you saying that you'll test Wish, I don't understand the post :/

The basic thing about Wish is that the Emrakul + 2nd Regal Force + 1x Gaea's Cradle + Viridian Shaman, all become the same card that you can trade for any of them, it's like a Joker. Plus it can also be Masticore and anything extra you might need in your side.


On the GSZ + Dryad thing you need to realize that Dryad Arbor has summoning sickness... very important, so what you say wouldn't work quite like that ;)


On Sylvan Messenger, aggro elves run many more elves than us, 0 tutors, and 0 glimpse of nature... Sylvan Messenger is their Glimpse of nature basically, it's a completely different approach.

[Mr. Safety]

Just making an observation/question really about Living Wish...it wasn't related to my particular list. I think you have room for GSZ or Wish...but not both. I still rely on Summoner's Pact pretty hard, as I feel it still makes the combo turn more consistent. I was looking to lean on GSZ to find the mana-lords for Emmy, of which I'm only play 2 rather than 4. Wish could take those slots, but I'd want 3 and a few more mana lords (most likely go back to 4.)

So what you're saying is that Dryad Arbor CANNOT tap for mana the turn it comes into play? Wow...bummer. I suppose I should actually RTFC, lol. Arbor is fairly worthless then...

I think I'll work on getting the Wishes, Emrakul, and a Gaea's Cradle so I can play a badass wishboard.

I hear you on the Sylvan Messenger comment...I feel the same, I just wanted an affirmation. Thanks!

[Infinitium]

On Sylvan Messenger, aggro elves run many more elves than us, 0 tutors, and 0 glimpse of nature... Sylvan Messenger is their Glimpse of nature basically, it's a completely different approach.

Eh. ~16 lands, 4 Symbiotes, 4 Glimpses and 6-8 utility spells still leaves you at some ~30 Elves, which is more than enough to support Messenger, and you only need one or two to tutor for anyhow. Granted it's nowhere near as good in lists not running the full 8 priests since they cannot reliably generate card advantage and put pressure on the opponent at the same time, and it arguably cannot draw the decs best cards, but a repeatable 3-for-1 that isn't reliant on the big mana effects is still more than enough to outattrition pretty much anything in the mid to lategame.

[Astrix]

Green sun zenith's power level is so high
It's not cuttable.
tbh either u go 4 gsz + x pact
or 4 gsz + x wishes

[Mr. Safety]

Green sun zenith's power level is so high
It's not cuttable.
tbh either u go 4 gsz + x pact
or 4 gsz + x wishes

Is this the consensus? I was planning on playing 4 Pact, and then 2-3 GSZ or 2-3 Living Wish (most likely Wish...)

[Astrix]

well u can try 2-3 pacts 4 gsz and 2 living wishes
Gsz must be 4 because :
A it costs 1 more mana than pact and dodges missteps (if u fech a 1 mana cost creature
(basically every creature:P) u get counter and die from pact trigger)
B u actually get to use the mana from the elf u bring the next turn and not have to pay the upkeep
C it gets back in the library which in many cases is important

[Godmode]

Ross, why the Intuition instead of BA? The BA plan seems to be more explosive...

[resum]

Ross, why the Intuition instead of BA? The BA plan seems to be more explosive...

I think it's because he has it maindeck, so he uses intuition which can act as a tutor for his combo pieces as well.

In the list I'm using, I have 4 GSZ, 3 pact, and 4 wish, and I'm pretty satisfied with it.

[Koby]

I think it's because he has it maindeck, so he uses intuition which can act as a tutor for his combo pieces as well.

In the list I'm using, I have 4 GSZ, 3 pact, and 4 wish, and I'm pretty satisfied with it.

Are you also playing Glimpse? If so, this seems far too many tutors and too few creatures.

[Mr. Safety]

well u can try 2-3 pacts 4 gsz and 2 living wishes
Gsz must be 4 because :
A it costs 1 more mana than pact and dodges missteps (if u fech a 1 mana cost creature
(basically every creature:P) u get counter and die from pact trigger)
B u actually get to use the mana from the elf u bring the next turn and not have to pay the upkeep
C it gets back in the library which in many cases is important

a) Misstep isn't relevant except for Glimpse of Nature...and we're not talking Glimpse. We're talking GSZ vs. Living Wish. Summoner's Pact costs 0, which doesn't even worry about Misstep. It costs 1 more mana than Pact? So? I'm confused on what you mean by that...because Pact is free during the combo turn.

b) Not sure I understand this either...I usually use the elves for mana RIGHT AWAY with Birchlore and Heritage Druid...if I pact for Elvish Archdruid or Priest of Titania, then it waits a turn...in that case GSZ is superior for dodging the upkeep of Pact. Regardless, Pact is a mid-combo piece, not a setup piece IMHO. I don't see the point of using Pact unless you're going combo...in that case, the extra mana on your upkeep is irrelivant...you can pay for it with your elves while you take your extra turn with Emrakul (or in my old list, just win on the spot with a 20+ Grapeshot)

c) Sure it gets back into library...but I'm having a hard time finding why that's important. The deck shouldn't need more than 1-2 tutors (Glimpse included) to combo out. Honestly, if I'm in the combo turn GSZ is HORRIBLE post-glimpse...because it DOESN'T TRIGGER GLIMPSE. I'd much rather draw an elf to keep the glimpse-train rolling.

This brings me to my last point: I see Summoner's Pact and Living Wish there to get your key pieces like Regal Force or Emrakul. I don't see them as setting up mana elves...the deck does that without needing tutors well enough. Seven Llanowars? Heritage, Birchlore, Quirion, Wirewood Symbiote? All of these are damn good at accelerating mana. GSZ, Pact, and Wish are for bombs, IMHO. GSZ makes your setup easier, but I don't really see why I would truly need it. If it made my Glimpse uncounterable, AWESOME! But it don't...

Hoping to get some experienced guys in here to help round out this discussion...pipe in any time Ruckus, NihilObstat, or TheRoss...

[Astrix]

A misstep is not relevant?
ok let me explain:
i pact for heritage druid
i cast heritage druid i get mental missteped
I DIE from upkeep

(or i can gsz which dodges mental misstep and even if it gets countered or they kill my creature with bolt stps perish etc etc i still live next upkeep)

B many times we fetch a priest second turn so we can play a regal force and find a glimpse that way. in that situation with gsz we can do the plan turn 3 and not pay for upkeep and go turn 4

C the resuffle thing is really usefull when u combo off and cant find emrakul so u dont get decked

pact is too risky these days.every one is playing spot removal and mental missteps.
pact is not good in the slower-more controlish meta that has evolved
thats why if i want to cut a tutor i start from pacts.tbh 4 gsz and 2-3 pacts is a good plan

[Mr. Safety]

A) you really use Summoner's Pact for Heritage Druid? Seriously? I don't think I've EVER done that.

B) I don't usually fetch a Priest with Summoner's Pact...because of spot removal. If Glimpse gets countered, I try to recur Elvish Visionary to draw into Regal or another Glimpse. If that isn't available, I go for the aggro win by attacking. *shrug* maybe that's wrong, but I usually have better options than a risky Pact. The deck has several avenues of winning, not the least of which is just play a ton of dudes, swing.

C) Why is reshuffling important? Emrakul already gives decking protection. If you get to play him, you'll probably win. If you don't, well, that sucks...lol. In reality, that argument works for 1 or 4 GSZ's.

So far, my vote goes to Living Wish.

[theross]

On the 3 tutors: I have found GSZ to be far and away the best, and would never consider playing less than 4. Given that Summoner's Pact is a 0 mana tutor, I've always opted for it over Wish, since I don't want to devote board slots to Living Wish targets. The re-shuffle on GSZ is important for 2 reasons:

1) It increases your threat density over long games. This effect is not noticeable over the first few turns, but typically we're the only deck winning that early. However, shuffling in your tutors and fetching out lands gives you slightly more gas over longer games.

2) It prevents you from decking with Glimpse when Emrakul is near the bottom of the deck. This doesn't come up directly in most games (Although it happened once to me at the GP) so the real value here comes from not having to play in fear of decking. With the full set of Zeniths, you can run out extra Glimpses knowing that you will never deck. You can also draw the majority of your deck with a Regal Force with impunity. Taking these lines aggressively allows you to combo more consistently without losing more games to poor luck.

@resum: As was stated, I use Intuition since it's more versatile in the MD, and only slightly less powerful since one may easily hard cast the Vengevine in your hand to start recurring the others.

@Astrix: You're definitely overstating the relevance of Pact's upkeep. I've won through paying for 1-2 of them on the same turn several times. Pact is certainly riskier but all that requires is more careful play.

@Mr.Safety: A) I frequently Pact for Heritage Druid. I've probably found nearly every creature in the deck at some point. Also, Misstep is clearly relevant for cards other than Glimpse of Nature, which is another reason GSZ is better than Pact or Living Wish, although this line of argument does nothing to distinguish between Pact and Wish.

B) Astrix is clearly presenting a situation where Pact is used to set up the following turn, a line of play which you rarely take. While this isn't the most common line with Pact, it is definitely possible, although it's much easier to pull off with GSZ. I would urge you to test these uncommon lines, since pigeonholing the most versatile cards in the deck is not optimal.

C) GSZ is not horrible post Glimpse. If you need to draw more cards, find a Symbiote and get some mana on the back end. (sometimes more if you're untapping a lord) The value of Glimpse is that it's always great. It helps to set up, helps continue the combo, and ends the combo by finding Regal Force. The combination of incredible power and versatility makes GSZ the best tutor option. When deciding between the other two, Pact is clearly the most powerful while Wish provides more versatility and I have clearly opted for power, since the versatility Wish provides over Pact (finding Emrakul, Cradle, and some answers to hate---Pact finds everything else) is simply not enough to compensate for the drop in power.

[catmint]

Looking forward to test your new build ross!
concerning the question what to do without 4 Cradle... Buy them.
I tested a lot (dismissing cradle for a long time), but it is as having concordant crossroads and priest of titania for 0 mana. Sure you cannot untap the cradle, but the funny thing is that in most of the times untapping a lord post glimpse is win-more and you still manage to cast your regal force as early as if you have manalords. So the cradle build is much more explosive...

Of course there are also a lot of good lists floating around without cradle, but they are more vulnerable to spot removal.

[Astrix]

@Theross
i am not overestimating pact's upkeep.I have won playing 2 pacts myself many times...
The problem is when i can not pay the upkeep (or i cannot risk due to removal or counters) and i have pact instead of GSZ in my hand: i can not use it.It's a dead card...
The argument that we dont lose from pact upkeeps often is not strong enough.
We dont lose because we dont even play pact in that situations which makes pact
a dead card.
Pact is not flexible.It does not give you options.You play it when you will win at once (and you have the availability of paying the upkeep if things go wrong or u can take the chance)
OK pact is better once u go off but tbh the problem is not to keep comboing off but to prepare setup and start comboing off.

And remember everyone we dont make a list to goldfish but to win a real match
And these days everyone and their mothers use spot removal, missteps and counters...

After these thoughts i think we should all agree 4 GSZ is a must.After that we can talk about 2-3 pacts and 2-3 wishes (for those who play wishboards)

PS Theross i think we agree generaly in our plans.only difference is that i cut 1 land and play 1 archdruid and i play 4 priests instead of vengevines MBoard.
i will post my final list so i can get ideas for a good sideboard