BTW the zoo you faced are they GSZ, heavy burn or Kotr based?Originally Posted by Tacosnape
Against red / white based aggro decks I have been thinking of trying out thoes Phyrexian Crusaders. We are the control deck against thoes deck so we dont have to kill them fast but rather get to the stage where we can grind them out. But dont really have any red decks at all in the my current metagame..
Phyrexian Crusader would just be nuts against Zoo, but I don't know that it's worth it given how he doesn't play nice with your other swingers.
The Zoo decks I face are either usually burn heavy or mid-speed with Knight of the Reliquary. I don't face much in the Big Zoo or Zenith variants, but I imagine these would actually be better for me. The only games I've ever lost to Zoo I lost from just not being able to stabilize against Guy/Removal/Guy/Swang/Repeat. And I lost one game to a Goyf Sligh that went Foothills-Mountain-Lavamancer, Foothills-Taiga-Lavamancer-Lavamancer. Swords'd one, Gatekeepered another, but couldn't get rid of the third and I couldn't stick a guy the whole game.
Made Top 8 of a 30 something SCG IQ with a few tweaks to the my last list yesterday. My only two losses were to the same guy, Brad, with UW Landstill. I got pretty unlucky in all 5 games, mulliganing at least once every game and I think to three times to 5. The first game of the Top 8 I mulligan, get Bob countered and get Jaced with 11 land between the yard and battlefield... he didn't ship any cards to the bottom. Such is life.
Did you find that your non-token creatures were thrwarted without MoR? Did you face Zoo? What inspired the 2-of Tidehollow? And did the 1 Diabolic Edict ever come up?
taco, that's an excellent point about life as a resource and choice of discard spells.
Thoughtseize and bob can make for some pretty tight games against agressive decks, and you need to watch what cards you're using.
These are also things you need to think about when you're making your board - considering what cards you're going to put in isn't enough...you need to think about what you're taking out (in this case it may be thoughtseize or bitterblossom) and what are good replacements for those cards against agressive decks.
Also, I agree that Mom is probably helping you quite a bit in zoo MU's.
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What does everyone think of the potential artifact hate coming our way? Is stoneforge/equipment still our best choice of finishers?
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Original Poster to the Deadguy Ale thread when Jitte was suggested:
I think we need a Plan B, a none artifact finisher. As much as I love Mystic. With UW stoneforge seeing so much play its just a matter of time before Ancient Grudge and other artifact hate will be everywhere. But mostly the hard countered ones like Krosan Grip and Ancient Grudge. I think we need some exellent none artifact finisher or a great card against artifact removal. I do not think 4CC is out of reach for this deck. When running high amount of basic count, im running 4 and 6 fetch as well Chome Moxes. And we are a grinding deck we arent gonna finish the game before turn 7 anyway.
Cards I Have been thinking of none artifact finisher
Phyrexian Obliterator, 4 black in the mana cost can be annoying but allready using a mostly mono black mana base without a plain.
Elspeth. Strong planeswalker 4cc with 2x white mana. Fetid Heath makes the 2x white less of the problem. Thought I think we want a good black planeswalker if it arrives in the future that is.
Hero of Bladehold, out of Bolt range. Finish the games really fast if not removed, makes all squires, bears and 2/1's hit for way more.
Phyrexian Crusader finisher against zoo from the board. Replaces the mirran crusader after boarding. Only goyf that the crusader cant be blocking and suriviving unless there is just 3 card types in the graves. But we got lots of removal so goyf shouldnt be a problem. Equiped Crusader will finish a game as fast if not faster then most other creatures and with really good protections.
Cards to protect our plan A
Hanna's Custody, Gives shroud to our equipments. A board already usinga a tutor package might have this one into consideration.
Extirpate / Surgial Extraction, geting thoes artifact removal cards removed for the future can be a game winning plan. As well gives answers against Dredge that we have a bad matchup against.
Indomitable Archangel, does require metalcraft. But is a plan b and protects plan A. Probly not worth it but just thinking loudly here.
Leonin Abunas Same as above but not really a plan B but protects plan A but 2/5 for 4 isnt optimal.
I know how to beat Zoo. Just side in
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Lotus Petal
1 Ill Gotten Gains
1 Ad Nauseum
1 Tendrils of Agony
Some aren't a fan of him but Jotun Grunt sweeps the dead artifacts under to be tutored again, is a solid body against Zoo, and is mainboard GY hate.
Not to beat a dead horse, but there are a lot of drawbacks to Jotun Grunt in a list like this:
1. If he comes down early, he won't stick around long enough to matter unless your opponent is on dredge or something else that abuses the GY. Zoo will just wait until you can't pay while amassing guys and burn.
2. Late, he's a 4/4 for 2, which isn't bad, but it isn't really changing the board state either. If you're at the point where this guy can actually stick around for several turns against Zoo, you're probably within burn range or close to it.
Most deadguy lists just can't put enough stuff in the yard fast enough to make this guy worth anything in the early game when you really need him. Honestly, Wall of Omens is probably better against Zoo.
to the finisher-discussion,
its an old hat I suggested maybe 50 Sites back, but Abyssal Persecutor is still good in Deadguy, even without any tweaks (pressing in Therapys...) I won more than a couple of Games on his back
Persecutor isn't bad, and neither is obliterator. Both are only marginally helpful in the Zoo matchup though, as they are going to have 3-4 Path/Swords effects maindeck, and possibly more out of the board. You might catch them off guard in one game, but once they see either they'll be ready.
Yeah, there are 2 distinct converstations going on here:
1. Potential need for alternative finishers - and what are the options.
2. Cards to shore up the Zoo match up.
Something that could actually deal with both issues would be cool.
I still run Percy with Dark Rituals, Therapies, and Gatekeepers - but i really want to run 3 equipment now (batterskull, SoFI, & Jitte), so I'm running out of room for finishers, if I go to a 3/3 SFM/Equipment split I really only have room for like 2 Percy's....plus I'm running a bunch of "potentially" sub-optimal cards in order to get around Percy's conditions. I'm toying with some things at the moment (including a 3rd color), but I haven't been happy with any of my ideas yet.
Team Disqualified Poster - Because not everyone gets to be astronauts when the grow up.
Original Poster to the Deadguy Ale thread when Jitte was suggested:
Have you tested Obliterator in the Percy slot? Would let you cut some of your sac outlets to run additional Obliterators, but I don't know what kind of manabase you're working with.
If the deck can play either, I prefer Obliterator to Percy any day. Both put the player on at least a 4 turn clock (from 20), Percy has flying but Obliterator reads as unblockable unless your opponent wants to lose more. Obliterator with equipment gives the sort of ultimatum I'd love to put an opponent in, and you don't have to run more removal to accommodate it. Also, if StP/Path is the only Zoo card that can take Obliterator in exchange for being nigh-untouchable otherwise, I accept.
I see some lists with Chrome Mox, and I like it. Getting that Turn 1 Hymn is a great jumpstart, and is also a small bit of mana fixing. I think I prefer it to Ritual, even when running Obliterators. Is there an argument between Ritual and Mox or for neither?
No there isnt really an argument between this two. Only idiots will tell you ritual is actually better.
But i prefer to play Mirran Crusader in the Spots where you play the Obliterator - While im more equipmentbased Mirrans are even setting a faster clock. Jitte with 2 Counters and Crusader = 2 hit dead :)
Here's my thing with Percy vs Oblit:
I think ultimately, Percy's biggest downside is the fact that you can't just swap him in for 3-4 other cards, you really have to re-craft your deck to build around him...and when you build around a single card sideboarding becomes much more difficult, and the deck generally becomes less adaptive.
Percy has his huge drawback that requires us to run more removal - but honestly, it's not an unreasonable ammount of removal - and it makes our removal valid in games when removal is typically dead (combo, etc). This is good in a way, because I don't mind keeping my 4 swords, 2 vindicates, and at least a couple of gatekeepers in against a deck with only a few creatures (show and tell, natural order, or even landstill). It's bad because against combo we still have to leave in removal, despite having no good enemy targets. I've had to give serious thought about how to side against many combo decks with percy....and honestly it's not easy. However, matchups against stuff like Goblins, Rock, and several other creature heavy decks become much easier with that much removal - and if I didn't have it in the main, I'd probably be looking to find a place to put it in the side. So my Game 1 may improve against Combo, but it would definately get worse against aggro.
Also, Cabal therapy is there...I don't necessarilly consider this a sub-optimal card since I have 6-8 effects (depending on the day) in my deck that looks at my opponent's hand (sculler and seize). There have been occaisons where I blanked on therapy, but I've also blown people out by taking 2 or even 3 cards from there hand on turn 2. Or you can always take "the dredge approach" and just name the card you don't want to see. Honestly I'd probably replace it with duress, given the choice, but the duress or IoK upside is so minimal it's hardly worth talking about IMHO.
On Percy's upside, you have a bigger body that can't be hit by dismember, and is really a 3 turn clock (because of fetches, forces, etc). Plus, it really has evasion - not fake evasion - real evasion. He occaisonally gets some chumps in the form of birds, Cliques, or tombstalkers, but generally the chumps aren't really an option to most opponents. Plus I don't need to include Fetid Heath or Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth to run Percy and still have a pretty white heavy deck and I can include wasteland a basic plains and a Karakas in my list without worrying about if I'm going to screw myself.
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Chrome Mox - I guess I fall in the "idiot category"
I see so many people running it now, but I just can't get on board. I guess if you run a heavier 2 cmc spot with Hymns (I don't run hymns) then the Mox can be better than dark ritual for accelleration. However, I like turn 1 ritual, thoughtsieze, Bob or turn 1 Double ritual thoughtsieze Percy (I've done both several times...but I'm also a lucky asshole). I also like turn 1 Engineered plague against goblins and fish. Even turn 1 Nighthawk is pretty sexy. Ultimately Ritual shines when you run a black finisher too - if you're win con's lie soley in the white category (Mirran Crusader and/or Stoneforge mystic), then Dark ritual will probably seem pretty lackluster.
The biggest problem I currently have with the Mox is that we are already begging people to bring in artifact removal for our equipment - giving decks that already have wasteland a way to 2 for 1 other mana sources just seems like bad planning to me. I'm not even worried about stuff like ancient grudge...it's more stuff like Null Rod that really bother me. I don't want a deck that "just looses to artifact hate"
However, I have been in situations where I've drawn light land (1-2) and heavy dark rituals (3-4) over the course of a game, and these are games that I often loose. In those cases the Moxen would probably be better. Generally though, land light games are less common than the games that I win because I have dark ritual. I've easilly won 10 games on the back of ritual where moxen may not have got me there, and probably lost 2 that might have been better with moxen. I'd much rather draw multiple rituals than multiple moxen too....I mean, who wants to pitch 2-3 cards to play an early threat that just eats swords and have an empty hand?
I think the inclusing of mental misstep has an impact on this choice though. Generally the life expectancy of an early bob is pretty short without a turn 1 discard spell to proceed it...however with misstep, all of a sudden turn 1 bob (off of mox) has a chance of getting there. Although, pitching misstep to moxen isn't really a good option either...
Overall, I think the choice is heavilly dependant on your curve and color distribution. If you are heavier in the 2 cmc spot and run very little white I think it's probably a pretty good choice, but I personally don't believe the card advantage that you gain through Hymn is enough to make up for the disadvantage of mox. Of course my thoughts on Hymn are another discussion entirely.
Or you can just believe that the Mox is better because "everyone who doesn't is an idiot". LOL
Last edited by bokwinkle; 07-21-2011 at 07:53 AM.
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Original Poster to the Deadguy Ale thread when Jitte was suggested:
Oh, I agree. I'm saying I'd play Obliterator (probably cutting Mirran, actually) as an alternative win condition in an environment where I believe there'll be an abnormal amount of equipment hate because of UW Tempo or if I see lots of Zoo/Aggro Loam/etc. Even naked, Obliterator takes it home. If swinging with a stick is guaranteed or at least with normal amount of hate, then Mirran Crusader is more effective.
To me, including mirran crusader is a poor choice. He's small bodied for his mana cost, and dilluting the mana base to run something with double white is simply not worth the risk of loosing to wasteland for a card that has such a minimal upside.
Sure, with an equipment he can win you the game. But I got news, a bitterblossom token with an equipment can win you the game. It's not crusader that makes you win, it's the equipment. Pro green is relevant because much of the chumpers in the format are green, and pro-black is becoming more relevant because of misstep and dismember - but he doesn't have protections that dodge the most common and relevant removal in the format (swords/path/and cards with lightning in the title). Ultimately there are better finishers in black that you could run that don't require the use of equipment, and leave your deck open to winning through artifact hate - where the chances that Crusader will get you there through artifact hate and commonly used removal is questionable.
Team Disqualified Poster - Because not everyone gets to be astronauts when the grow up.
Original Poster to the Deadguy Ale thread when Jitte was suggested:
Its fine if they are chumping and sacing when blocking The obliterator he got trample for a reason :P
Trample also means if he is equiped you will get the sword effects even when blocked :P
I'm going to keep beating this dead horse, but it bears repeating over and over again.
If you are looking for something to help against the Zoo matchup, Mental Misstep is about as good as it gets. It protects your SFM from removal so that Batterskull can come down, at which time the race to put you within burn range comes to a screeching halt. It also can counter Nacatl and its ilk. Against other matchups, Misstep continues to shine, stopping:
Aether Vial
Top
Lackey
Cursecatcher
StP
Path
Thoughtseize
Glimpse (and elves)
Brainstorm (an awesome play when they attempt to hide cards from IoK or Thoughtseize)
E-tutor
pretty much everything Dredge wants to be doing
opposing Missteps
And the list goes on and on.
If you're playing Aggro-Control and aren't running Misstep for uber tempo advantage, you're doing it all wrong. If you're playing Mox or Ritual instead of Misstep you're really doing it wrong. Who cares about putting down SFM a turn sooner when you have no way to counter removal that will presently be blowing it to the stone age? And, since you spent your first turn using down card advantage to play a vulnerable card rather than casting IoK to clear the way, they're even more likely to have that removal. So, this obsession with powering out SFM a turn early only leads to Batterskull (the best anti-Zoo tool in the deck) sitting in your hand until you can hard cast it, by which time Zoo has already killed you, buried you, exhumed your corpse, and killed you again.
Mental Misstep. 4-of. Maindeck. QED.
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