[Deck] Dredge

[4eak]

Since suggesting Phantasmagorian (pg 81.) and Manaless list (pg 82.), I've had time to think and playtest more. I had originally suggested Bloodghast, but I've moved away from it -- it is simply too slow. By the time you would choose to dredge a Dakmor over a GGT, you should already have plenty of other Free Dudes.

I've tried lots of configs, like running only 2 DR targets, or Baubles, etc. This is where I am at:

// Dredgers - 16
4 Shambling Shell
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll

// Free Discard Outlets - 8
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Gigapede

// Free Dudes - 12
4 Nether Shadow
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid

// Free Draw - 8
4 Street Wraith
4 Gitaxian Probe

// DR-Package - 8
4 Dread Return
1 River Kelpie
1 Sphinx of Lost Truths
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Flame-Kin Zealot

// GY-Goodies - 8
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 Contagion
SB: 4 Mental Misstep
SB: 1 Blazing Archon
SB: 1 Terastodon
SB: 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite

The general gameplan is to DDD with acceleration from Free Draw so that you can DR on Kelpie/Sphinx, which usually lets you essentially win on the same turn, as you chain your deck and either Iona or FKZ.

I've decided to keep the probes, which unlike the Baubles, let's you DDD cleanly. The increase in speed is necessary, I think. Probe is amazing with Therapy, which is what pushes it over the edge for being an acceptable card, despite the fact that it is a foothold for decks packing permission to interact with you.

I took Gigapede out, originally. I've since put it back in. I find Phantasmagorian so excellent in this deck that you want Gigapede just to maximize Phantasmagorian. Gigapede has other uses though. There are times when you have no Phantasmagorian (woe unto you), and Gigapede lets you pitch trapped, yet vital, cards (Bridges, often enough). It also functions as a way to help trigger Nether Shadows more consistently, as you can turn Gigapedes which are below Nether Shadows into any creature on top of your graveyard.

I'm still not completely convinced by the deck, but in many cases it is better than my usual LEDless, which has been fighting an uphill battle against a MM-infested metagame.



peace,
4eak

[ajfirecracker]

@4eak, Contagion is a waste of space, the Baubles are worth running but certainly not as great as Street Wraith or Gitaxian Probe, and you really shouldn't need Gigapede, especially not solely as extra Phantasmagorian. You realize you can respond to Phantastagorian's discard ability with another instance of it, right? Alternately, you can discard a dredger with him, in response cycle Street Wraith, and discard that same dredger with that same Phantasmagorian.

[4eak]

@ ajfirecracker

Multiple activations of Phantasmagorian without passing priority are excellent. They don't always empty your hand though, which can be a problem.

Hand Count - Activations - Remainder
8 - 2 - 2 (I'm sure most of the time Discard down is fine)
7 - 2 - 1
6 - 2 - 0
5 - 1 - 2
4 - 1 - 1
3 - 1 - 0
2 - 0 - 2
1 - 0 - 1

Obviously, you still get to pitch most of the cards in your hand, so I can see why you are less impressed by Gigapede. Gigapede does improve Phantasmagorian in plenty of cases though. And, as I pointed out, there are reasons to play Gigapede.

Baubles do add speed, I grant. They are slightly less consistent though, and they do open the deck even further to permission, particularly at your vulnerable stages of setting up in the early game. I ended up moving away from Baubles and going to Gigapede, but I can sympathize with the desire to add free draw to the deck.

Bauble isn't as good as Probe/SW (as you point out), and for those don't see why, the line of play looks something like this:

DDD -> if you flip 2 Dredgers (or can manage to get 2 in the GY), then definitely drop and pop Bauble.
DDD -> if you flip 1 Dredger, then you have consider the odds of chain dredging (Shell and Thug are weaker in this respect). If you drop'n'pop, but you don't flip another dredger on your draw step (or a Phantasmagorian), then you waste a draw step (or essentially, wasted your bauble as a form of acceleration).
DDD -> if you flip 0 Dredgers/Discard Outlets, you have to DDD again, and you can't drop Bauble (meaning, you wait another turn before you can drop it).

Having to wait until your next upkeep often sucks.

Some number of Baubles might be correct. I've not liked them in my testing though /shrug. I'll try again.

---------------

Contagion is obviously metagame dependent. I'm fully willing to part with it.

----------------

After reviewing your list, I see we have much larger disagreements. Both Nether Shadow and Phantasmagorian are auto-4-of's. Phantasmagorian is one of the best cards in the deck, even with Baubles. With or without baubles, I think Nether Shadow as a 4-of is a necessarily evil if you want to consistently DR as early as possible.



peace,
4eak

[ajfirecracker]

@ ajfirecracker

Multiple activations of Phantasmagorian without passing priority are excellent. They don't always empty your hand though, which can be a problem.

Hand Count - Activations - Remainder
8 - 2 - 2 (I'm sure most of the time Discard down is fine)
7 - 2 - 1
6 - 2 - 0
5 - 1 - 2
4 - 1 - 1
3 - 1 - 0
2 - 0 - 2
1 - 0 - 1

Obviously, you still get to pitch most of the cards in your hand, so I can see why you are less impressed by Gigapede. Gigapede does improve Phantasmagorian in plenty of cases though. And, as I pointed out, there are reasons to play Gigapede.

Baubles do add speed, I grant. They are slightly less consistent though, and they do open the deck even further to permission, particularly at your vulnerable stages of setting up in the early game. I ended up moving away from Baubles and going to Gigapede, but I can sympathize with the desire to add free draw to the deck.

Bauble isn't as good as Probe/SW (as you point out), and for those don't see why, the line of play looks something like this:

DDD -> if you flip 2 Dredgers (or can manage to get 2 in the GY), then definitely drop and pop Bauble.
DDD -> if you flip 1 Dredger, then you have consider the odds of chain dredging (Shell and Thug are weaker in this respect). If you drop'n'pop, but you don't flip another dredger on your draw step (or a Phantasmagorian), then you waste a draw step (or essentially, wasted your bauble as a form of acceleration).
DDD -> if you flip 0 Dredgers/Discard Outlets, you have to DDD again, and you can't drop Bauble (meaning, you wait another turn before you can drop it).

Having to wait until your next upkeep often sucks.

Some number of Baubles might be correct. I've not liked them in my testing though /shrug. I'll try again.

---------------

Contagion is obviously metagame dependent. I'm fully willing to part with it.

----------------

After reviewing your list, I see we have much larger disagreements. Both Nether Shadow and Phantasmagorian are auto-4-of's. Phantasmagorian is one of the best cards in the deck, even with Baubles. With or without baubles, I think Nether Shadow as a 4-of is a necessarily evil if you want to consistently DR as early as possible.



peace,
4eak

You don't have to wait until your upkeep for Bauble, you have to wait until THE next upkeep, which may very well be your opponent's. This is mostly nice for pulling Narcomoeba out of your deck to block.

I've been advocating in favor of Phantasmagorian ever since Extended 2009 (i.e. Dark Depths season) as it was a nice boost to consistency and power in my dredge deck of that year. The thing is, as I tuned that list (easing my way into Legacy, as it were) for eternal play, I found that the Phantasmagorian were best cut from 4 to 3 and finally to 2. The reasons to run 2 in that deck and in my manaless build are the same: The first one you dredge into is completely awesome, and usually worth half a turn to a full turn. The second one you dredge into isn't awesome, but it is pretty good because you can loop the two together to discard for free at instant speed. The third is a Prowling Pangolin, as is the fourth. Obviously, if I could hit two at the very beginning of the game and then never hit more, I would happily do that.

I feel like my list doesn't even need the two Nether Shadow, it typically Dread Returns for the win on Turn 3 without bringing back the little squirt. I have two slots with basically nothing better, so I run him.

As to the auto 4-of nature of Phantastagorian, I think that when you start loading up on Nether Shadow, Bloodghast, and/or other low-power graveyard effects (I'd include Chancellor of the Forge here despite it working only from your hand), you basically have to run 6-7 Phantasmagorian to get the list to function smoothly (in large part due to Nether Shadow, but not just him). Of course, you can only run 4, so the deck feels pretty clunky when you take a while to find one, and once in a rare while you'll hit 3 or even all 4 quickly and feel awesome but be incredibly slow. Alternately, if you run 10 or so creatures like I do, and max out on things that dig through the deck, you find the creatures you actually care about (the two game-winning plays in the deck are pretty clearly Narcomoeba + Dread Return and Ichorid + Bridge from Below) and you really just don't need that many Phantastagorian. The correct number for a list that's otherwise similar to mine is almost certainly 2-3.

Edit: My 6-7 Phantasmagorian conclusion is definitely supported by the near-universal inclusion of Gigapede in the slower, more creature-focused manaless builds.

Edit 2: Regarding how close Phantasmagorian gets you to emptying your hand, keep in mind that you can always use him in your upkeep or after your upkeep, so in a single turn you have the option to discard at 2 different levels. Later in the game, you're almost always just fine with having some dredgers stuck in your hand (since this list is so dense on them), which means that he actually loses some of his value as the game goes on, despite being better able to functionally empty your hand (i.e. you only need one Phantasmagorian in your graveyard all game, most games).

[Final Fortune]

@4eak, Contagion is a waste of space, the Baubles are worth running but certainly not as great as Street Wraith or Gitaxian Probe, and you really shouldn't need Gigapede, especially not solely as extra Phantasmagorian. You realize you can respond to Phantastagorian's discard ability with another instance of it, right? Alternately, you can discard a dredger with him, in response cycle Street Wraith, and discard that same dredger with that same Phantasmagorian.

Wait, so I can discard Phantasmagorian on my end step and then activate his ability without passing priority multiple times to discard 6 of 7 cards in my hand?

Edit: Also, Nether Shadow isn't a game 1 card, it's a game 2&3 card because the density of threats is much more important post-board when facing hate then it is pre-board when you're free to goldfish i.e. MDing Nether Shadow is essentially pre-SBing.

[ajfirecracker]

Wait, so I can discard Phantasmagorian on my end step and then activate his ability without passing priority multiple times to discard 6 of 7 cards in my hand?

Edit: Also, Nether Shadow isn't a game 1 card, it's a game 2&3 card because the density of threats is much more important post-board when facing hate then it is pre-board when you're free to goldfish i.e. MDing Nether Shadow is essentially pre-SBing.

Yep, you basically get a free Stinkweed Imp dredge just for getting the first Phantasmagorian in your graveyard. With Street Wraith in hand, it's almost like getting two free dredges.

Nether Shadow isn't actually a threat, though. Nether Shadow + ample Cabal Therapy + multiple Bridge from Below is a serious threat, Narcomoeba can be a serious threat without conceding too much to hate, and Ichorid is an incredible threat so long as he has food, hate or no. By running the Baubles, I'm vastly increasing how often/quickly I hit Ichorid and Bridge from Below, which are the key threats when playing through hate. Nether Shadow, not so much. Even if your pre-boarding argument were very good (it's an ok analysis, although I think it's still wrong for the reasons I just gave), it wouldn't hold in situations where you don't want to pre-board the Nether Shadow, as he would be unlikely to make the sideboard in those cases.

Similarly, I think Rausch's biggest slop in deckbuilding was running the Gigapede in the sideboard. He said he usually just went -1 Phantasmagorian +1 Gigapede, which is clearly a change that makes almost no difference at all to the deck, and is almost certainly worse than just not making it at all. (As you can emulate Gigapede by discarding EOT, which you're planning on doing anyway, but you can't really emulate Phantasmagorian).

As to whether the deck should be fast or slow, I think fast is almost purely better. Counterbalance is probably the only card that stands a chance of making that not true (if it reveals a land to shut down Baubles), and no one is running it right now. Against hate, playing a faster deck means giving them fewer turns to find an out, and being able to more quickly end the game when they're failing to find one. Obviously this is balanced by having a higher threat density in cases where they do actually have hate, but the total time to win the game is almost certainly comparable, if not outright favoring the more draw-heavy deck.

[Final Fortune]

Yep, you basically get a free Stinkweed Imp dredge just for getting the first Phantasmagorian in your graveyard. With Street Wraith in hand, it's almost like getting two free dredges.

Nether Shadow isn't actually a threat, though. Nether Shadow + ample Cabal Therapy + multiple Bridge from Below is a serious threat, Narcomoeba can be a serious threat without conceding too much to hate, and Ichorid is an incredible threat so long as he has food, hate or no. By running the Baubles, I'm vastly increasing how often/quickly I hit Ichorid and Bridge from Below, which are the key threats when playing through hate. Nether Shadow, not so much. Even if your pre-boarding argument were very good (it's an ok analysis, although I think it's still wrong for the reasons I just gave), it wouldn't hold in situations where you don't want to pre-board the Nether Shadow, as he would be unlikely to make the sideboard in those cases.

Similarly, I think Rausch's biggest slop in deckbuilding was running the Gigapede in the sideboard. He said he usually just went -1 Phantasmagorian +1 Gigapede, which is clearly a change that makes almost no difference at all to the deck, and is almost certainly worse than just not making it at all. (As you can emulate Gigapede by discarding EOT, which you're planning on doing anyway, but you can't really emulate Phantasmagorian).

As to whether the deck should be fast or slow, I think fast is almost purely better. Counterbalance is probably the only card that stands a chance of making that not true (if it reveals a land to shut down Baubles), and no one is running it right now. Against hate, playing a faster deck means giving them fewer turns to find an out, and being able to more quickly end the game when they're failing to find one. Obviously this is balanced by having a higher threat density in cases where they do actually have hate, but the total time to win the game is almost certainly comparable, if not outright favoring the more draw-heavy deck.

Regarding Nether Shadow, it's a threat in the sense that it increases the number of recurrable creatures that enable your Dread Return thru' disruption, and it's also one of the only creatures in the deck that can block. You need to reach a critical mass of recurrable creatures thru' disruption post-board, and that's what Nether Shadow achieves.

I agree, game 1 being fast is better than being more consistent but post-board I think Nether Shadow, Gigapede and Chancellor of the Forge all give the deck more resiliency and less dependency on its starting hands. Maybe you start with the Baubles in the main deck and then SB them out for the "lesser" engine pieces?

Anyway, what do you guys think of the MD Dread Return target slots? I have a love/hate relationship with Chancellor of the Forge for being a worthwhile card in your starting 7 but he seems to be a worse Dread Return target than other options and he's only a good Dread Return target when you already have an overwhelming board position. I'm kind of leaning towards the old 2xSphinx of Lost Truths 2xFlame Kin Zealot package or just something like 4xIona, Shield of Emeria or 4xTerrastadon just to make game 1 Dread Return a lock and then board them out for something more functional in the face of disruption later.

Also, am I the only guy SBing in more Dredge 3 card to guarantee 2 Dredgers vs. hate?

[unicoerner]

Hi,
i haven't tested the manaless build yet. I just feel that being open to the 2 best things opponents can do in the first 2 turns isn't good:
1) Getting killed in the first two turns , can happen to every deck without counter
2) Lakey, Goblin isn't that much of an issue right now, but this can easily be a tough MU.

I feel that Baubles are better than Probes, becasue they can't be Misstepped.... which was the reason to play Manaless.

[KevinTrudeau]

I really like your philosophy concerning the deck, ajfirecracker. Manaless Dredge should be a Dread Return deck instead of a Bridge from Below/Ichorid recursion grind-'em-out style deck, because it can do the former quite briskly without really sacrificing the latter at all. I haven't tested any of the Baubles over Chancellor of the Forge, but they do seem to be better in theory, considering they draw five-six cards in this deck, have synergy with Cabal Therapy, can be drawn into, and can replace the token CotF provides with a Narcomoeba, Nether Shadow, or Ichorid that gets dredged into.

[ajfirecracker]

I really like your philosophy concerning the deck, ajfirecracker. Manaless Dredge should be a Dread Return deck instead of a Bridge from Below/Ichorid recursion grind-'em-out style deck, because it can do the former quite briskly without really sacrificing the latter at all. I haven't tested any of the Baubles over Chancellor of the Forge, but they do seem to be better in theory, considering they draw five-six cards in this deck, have synergy with Cabal Therapy, can be drawn into, and can replace the token CotF provides with a Narcomoeba, Nether Shadow, or Ichorid that gets dredged into.

Thanks!

I think the Baubles feel a lot less clunky than any other option, but they do slightly decrease the odds of having a Turn 2 win or a Cabal Therapy on Turn 2.

[Final Fortune]

Yeah, Baubles are also more valuable than Gitaxian Probe in the sense they protect the deck from Relic of Progenitus, which is the worst of the SB cards we have to deal with. All I can say is thank god players are diversifying their SB hate cards, because Relic of Progenitus is probably worse than Leyline of the Void in that it's equivalently just as good when drawn and in addition to that an extremely powerful top deck.

Anyway, I had a pretty good showing with this list on Saturday.

4 Phantasmagorian
4 Gigapede
4 Golgar Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Shambling Shell
4 Street Wraith
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Chancellor of the Forge
4 Dread Return
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy

The nice thing is every card does something in your graveyard other than Gitaxian Probe, even a Shambling Shell feels like an Ancestral Recal every turn.

[KevinTrudeau]

My response to the above post is in the Manaless thread.

[Gui]

I'm still not completely convinced by the deck, but in many cases it is better than my usual LEDless, which has been fighting an uphill battle against a MM-infested metagame.

I agree with this, and even though I think the uphill battle is quite beatable, I have to give you that manaless is better against MM the same much more than LEDless is better against opposing hatery.

Also, I like that the two decks will be properly discussed in different threads. The discussion gets too diverted when not, going into the "you should play this" direction too often , and I actually think LEDless should get the discussion to it's former thread as well.

[unicoerner]

Manaless seems to be the new kid on the block, but still i like Man'd better.

One card i'd like to include from Manaless is Street Wraith. On g2 and 3 if we fear Misstep we can go 2nd and dodge Relic like Manaless.
Wraith feeds Ichorid and we could dredge first round with it.

Somehow i seem to not use my dread returns and grind the games out with Zombies.
So perhaps -2 DR and -2 sth?

[gamer4life]

i also feel like street wrath would make a great adition to the deck.so i tested it out it only seems to be best in games 2/3. but i cant find room for them in the board lol all the staples just seem better. so anyways i have a tornament coming up on the 13 and offcourse i want to play dredge. it feels like somthings not right in my deck though
my list is......
4 troll
4 stinkweed
3 thug
1 darkblast
4 moeba
3 ichorid
4 putrid imp
3 tireless tribe
1 angel of dispair
2 dred return
4 breakthrough
4 carful study
4 bridge
4 theropy

4 city
4 gemstone
4 colisem
2 undiscoverd paradise
1 citadel
S.B.
4 firestom
4 chain of vapor
3 grudge
1 ichorid
1 D R
1 iona
1 elesh norn
iv nott been so happy with it lately,i feel like siding out bthrough is not the choice alot of times,i want to to take andvantedge of them not b slow.idk anymore it just feels like it needs a change,ya know.....lol. so im open to ideas.

[Vandalize]

i also feel like street wrath would make a great adition to the deck.so i tested it out it only seems to be best in games 2/3. but i cant find room for them in the board lol all the staples just seem better. so anyways i have a tornament coming up on the 13 and offcourse i want to play dredge. it feels like somthings not right in my deck though
my list is......
4 troll
4 stinkweed
3 thug
1 darkblast
4 moeba
3 ichorid
4 putrid imp
3 tireless tribe
1 angel of dispair
2 dred return
4 breakthrough
4 carful study
4 bridge
4 theropy

4 city
4 gemstone
4 colisem
2 undiscoverd paradise
1 citadel
S.B.
4 firestom
4 chain of vapor
3 grudge
1 ichorid
1 D R
1 iona
1 elesh norn
iv nott been so happy with it lately,i feel like siding out bthrough is not the choice alot of times,i want to to take andvantedge of them not b slow.idk anymore it just feels like it needs a change,ya know.....lol. so im open to ideas.

Jesus, your writing is horrible.

I'd add a Terastodon/Woodfall Primus (leaning towards Primus, because he has an OMFG synergy with Cabal Therapy) somewhere in the 75. I really dislike not having any outs for random win stuff like Ensnaring Bridge and Moat.

The lack of knowledge of your meta makes me want to change your sideboard a little bit. I'd go for:

4 Ancient Grudge
4 Firestorm
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Terastodon
1 Ichorid
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Dread Return

As for Street Wraith, I'm in love with it. But I play LED version, which don't really need Careful Study, so I replaced them with 3 Street Wraith and a 4th Thug.

[gamer4life]

I have leds and started out playing them. Then every thing changed mm hit and every body started to play control.

[unicoerner]

Perhaps i am playing this deck wrong... I seem to never (seldom) cast my dread returns.
Perhaps these 2 could be the first 2 Wraiths?

I have the feeling that DR is more often Winmore

[Hanni]

Has anyone ever considered Sylvan Library, or has it already been tried and dismissed? I realize that blue is a stronger overall color for Careful Study and Breakthrough, but with the prevalence of Mental Misstep, and the option to run multi-color lands like City of Brass, Sylvan Library looks like it cxould be potent in here.

Here is the discussion from the Card Interactions and Rulings forum discussing Sylvan Library and Dredging: Sylvan Library and Life from the Loam interaction

So basically, Sylvan Library has the ability to give you 3 dredges a turn. That's like popping a Cephalid Coliseum every turn, minus the discard factor.

Am I totally off base here? I have only played Dredge a few times, and maybe Sylvan Library is too slow since the deck cannot take advantage of its effect until at least turn 3. Has this been discussed before?

[Final Fortune]

It's common consenus that 2cc cards require too many lands in the deck and are too slow slow to resolve, otherwise we'd be playing with Zombie Infestation and Tolarian Winds.