Krosan Grip vs Lion's Eye Diamond

[johanessen]

If opponent plays Krosan Grip, can I activate LED in response??

[cdr]

Yes. You have priority, which is what LED cares about, and LED has a mana ability, which is what Krosan Grip cares about.

Sacrifice Lion's Eye Diamond, Discard your hand: Add three mana of any one color to your mana pool. Activate this ability only any time you could cast an instant.

702.58a. Split second is a static ability that functions only while the spell with split second is on the stack. "Split second" means "As long as this spell is on the stack, players can't cast other spells or activate abilities that aren't mana abilities."

Mana Ability: An activated or triggered ability that could create mana and doesn't use the stack.

[Julian23]

702.58a. Split second is a static ability that functions only while the spell with split second is on the stack. "Split second" means "As long as this spell is on the stack, players can't cast other spells or activate abilities that aren't mana abilities."

You can. Even though LED's ability has a timing condition that other mana abilities don't have, it's still a mana ability. Mana abilities are not impeded by split second.

[Richard Cheese]

Sorry to necro this, but couldn't find a clear answer to the scenario we ran into yesterday, and this thread is pretty close.

If my opponent has an LED and Grindstone in play, can I wait until he cracks the LED and discards, then KGrip Grindstone in response, or can LED activation not be responded to because it doesn't use the stack?

[yawg07]

LED activation can not be responded to because it is a mana ability.
They play the ability at Instant speed, but that doesnt change that it's a mana ability.

[Richard Cheese]

Can I get a confirmation on this? Not that I don't trust you Yawg, but I keep hearing otherwise from other players.

[Koby]

If my opponent has an LED and Grindstone in play, can I wait until he cracks the LED and discards, then KGrip Grindstone in response, or can LED activation not be responded to because it doesn't use the stack?

You can certainly wait until they discard for LED, but by that time they'll already have the mana. They will be able to activate LED in most cases (barring some strange Teferi-esque restrictions) in response to KGrip.

That said, it completely depends on whose turn it is in order to determine who retains priority after LED is popped.

If it's your opponent's turn, then he retains priority, and the first opportunity you have to cast Krosan Grip will be after he activates Grindstone.

If it's your turn, then you will retain priority, and would be able to KGrip the Grindstone without your opponent having an opportunity to activate Grindstone.

Pertinent rules -

The active player receives priority after a spell or ability (other than a mana ability) resolves.

Mana abilities resolve immediately. If a mana ability both produces mana and has another effect, the mana is produced and the other effect happens immediately. If a player had priority before a mana ability was activated, that player gets priority after it resolves. (See rule 605, "Mana Abilities.")

[Richard Cheese]

So if your opponent has LED in play and Grindstone in hand at the beginning of their turn, there is basically no opportunity to Grip the Grindstone without them using it?

[Koby]

So if your opponent has LED in play and Grindstone in hand at the beginning of their turn, there is basically no opportunity to Grip the Grindstone without them using it?

If they would initiate a stack by casting Grindstone, then there is no strategic way to stop Grindstone activating by using KGrip.

[[sic]]

did your opponent cast a spell prior to saccing LED? did he maintain priority? You can't cast a spell if you don't have priority, you have to wait until he puts Grindstone's ability on the stack before you can respond. Otherwise, you cast Krosan Grip in response to an LED/Painter being played. He can still sac the LED in response to a Krosan Grip because it's a mana ability but he cannot activate Grindstone in response.

[android]

Yeah, retaining priority was always kind of confusing to me. Now I just think of it like; how much mana do I have, how many activated abilities do I have, how many instants can I cast and does it matter what order they resolve in. It gets harder if you need to generate mana through means other than activated abilities.

The stack -> You can't explain that!

[Tacosnape]

@CDR: Question.

702.58a. Split second is a static ability that functions only while the spell with split second is on the stack. "Split second" means "As long as this spell is on the stack, players can't cast other spells or activate abilities that aren't mana abilities."

Sacrifice Lion's Eye Diamond, Discard your hand: Add three mana of any one color to your mana pool. Activate this ability only any time you could cast an instant.

By rule, 702.58a says that you can't cast other spells while a Split Second spell is on the stack. Therefore, you can't cast an instant.

Lion's Eye Diamond, by rule, can't be activated at a time where you can't cast an instant.

So how exactly does it follow that you can activate LED with a split second spell on the stack? This seems counterintuitive to all rules of magic, specifically the "can't beats can" rule which tends to govern all contradictions.

[emidln]

@CDR: Question.

702.58a. Split second is a static ability that functions only while the spell with split second is on the stack. "Split second" means "As long as this spell is on the stack, players can't cast other spells or activate abilities that aren't mana abilities."

Sacrifice Lion's Eye Diamond, Discard your hand: Add three mana of any one color to your mana pool. Activate this ability only any time you could cast an instant.

By rule, 702.58a says that you can't cast other spells while a Split Second spell is on the stack. Therefore, you can't cast an instant.

Lion's Eye Diamond, by rule, can't be activated at a time where you can't cast an instant.

So how exactly does it follow that you can activate LED with a split second spell on the stack? This seems counterintuitive to all rules of magic, specifically the "can't beats can" rule which tends to govern all contradictions.

Lion's Eye Diamond's ability is a mana ability with a timing restriction requiring priority as per rule 304.5. Split Second says you can't activate abilities that aren't mana abilities. So as long as you have priority, you can activate LED with a split second spell on the stack.

[[sic]]

Lion's Eye Diamond, by rule, can't be activated at a time where you can't cast an instant.

There is no rule that says mana abilities can't be activated when a Split Second spell is on the stack.

[Anusien]

Lion's Eye Diamond, by rule, can't be activated at a time where you can't cast an instant.

You're reading "any time you could cast an instant" too literally. It actually means "any time you have priority".

304.5. If text states that a player may do something “any time he or she could cast an instant,” it means only that the player must have priority. The player doesn’t need to have an instant he or she could actually cast. Effects that would prevent that player from casting a spell or casting an instant don’t affect the player’s capability to perform that action (unless the action is actually casting a spell or casting an instant).

[Tacosnape]

@Anusien: Excellent explanation and good rule quote. I always wondered why the Grip/LED thing worked the way it did.

[Ryoku]

A bit of extra information:

Functionally, LED is worded that way to keep you from activating it after announcing a spell. Normally, you can declare a spell, activate mana abilities, and then pay the cost. This would effectively bypass part of the downside of LED's ability, since you could declare you're casting a spell from your hand, then sacrifice the LED, losing the rest of your hand, but keeping the spell you're putting on the stack.

[Anusien]

@Anusien: Excellent explanation and good rule quote. I always wondered why the Grip/LED thing worked the way it did.

Basically, they don't want to put the word "priority" on a card.