Hello guys, my update list looks like:
// Lands
11 Forest
3 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Dryad Arbor
// Creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Eternal Witness
4 Kitchen Finks
3 Veteran Explorer
3 Dungrove Elder
3 Skinshifter
2 Scryb Ranger
1 Uktabi Orangutan
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Acidic Slime
// Spells
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Dismember
3 Beast Within
2 Sylvan Library
// Sideboard
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Loaming Shaman
SB: 2 Lignify
SB: 1 Vexing Shusher
SB: 3 Phyrexian Metamorph
SB: 3 Mindbreak Trap
Here is where I am at:
// Lands
11 Forest
2 Dryad Arbor
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
// Creatures
1 Dungrove Elder
3 Rampaging Baloths
4 Scryb Ranger
3 Llanowar Elves (Should be Noble Hierarch)
4 Birds of Paradise
1 Primalcrux
1 Noble Hierarch
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Boggart Ram-Gang
3 Vigor
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
3 Mul Daya Channelers
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Nullmage Shepherd
// Spells
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Summoning Trap
3 Garruk Wildspeaker
// Sideboard
SB: 4 Phyrexian Metamorph
SB: 3 Beast Within
The above list has been testing very well. Frankly, better than I thought it would. It's tough MU's are anything discard (but they are win-able) & NO RUG (Sometimes you just can not race a Progenitus, and G2 & 3 the metamorph Legend rule is spotty but works I'd say G2 & G3 are even leaving the match ever-so-slightly unfavorable), & Dredge but I know that is because my SB is not developed.
Given the high curve of the deck there has been some games where I had a clunky start with too many cards in hand are too high to cast. However I would say many of those are still not lost. The power of the 6 CMC cards offset their hindererence, and swing games back.
Now this morning I had a hair-brained Idea. What if instead of dropping a Boggart Ram-Gang t2 we aimed to drop an Aven Mindcensor.
...I know, I know it's not green, and not GSZ-able... However, you can hard cast it with Birds of Paradise or Noble Hierarch (or later than t2 with Mul Daya Channelers if you got the land)...or you could Summoning Trap it into play (although I'll admit it is likely not the best target.) ...you could hard cast trap in response to a Natural Order and drop an aven if he's in your top 7.
Why would we want to go through this trouble? ...well our (slightly) bad MU NO RUG searches their library ALL THE TIME (fetches, GSZ, NO, etc.) if landed it hurts them quite bad. If answered with a counter it COULD trigger a Summoning Trap into a game winner. If he does drop than they will have to find a bolt & red mana in their top 4 cards to free their game plan up again.
Beyond aven's search ability it's flying, so we have a reliable threatening way out of the red zone. Especially if I throw down on the Noble's I know I need to power him out.
In the end I think he's an excellent disruptive aggro creature that deserves a test.
I will be testing the following list tonight:
// Lands
11 Forest
2 Dryad Arbor
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
// Creatures
1 Dungrove Elder
3 Rampaging Baloths
4 Scryb Ranger
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Aven Mindcensor(or 4 Aven less a Dungrove)
3 Vigor
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
3 Mul Daya Channelers
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Nullmage Shepherd
// Spells
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Summoning Trap
3 Garruk Wildspeaker
// Sideboard
SB: 4 Phyrexian Metamorph
SB: 3 Beast Within
Maybe I'm too sensitive to this since there are so many NO RUG's in the meta I'm travelling through as of late.
Last edited by Freggle; 08-12-2011 at 09:22 AM.
Freggle, I'd suggest -1 Primalcrux for Deus of Calamity, simply because of the CMC at 5 for GSZ. Deus works well for that role when you can't GSZ for 6 because if unblocked, you get CA. At worst, he's a 6/6 for 5 with trample, which is still strong.
Hey Greenpoe! Thanks man.Originally Posted by Greenpoe
As it stands right now I'm looking the change the purpose of that slot up a little. The epiphany of Aven Mindcensor I had this morning shifted the deck ever so slightly.
I have tested Aven in the slots listed above at a local store, and have been VERY happy with it. At one point I was able to live the dream and power flash him out in response to my opponents turn 2 fetch crack. He searched his top 4 and came up empty. He later told me that stopped a turn 2 Hymn to Tourach. In another match he kept the clock going to victory flying over my opponents developed board and putting the last few pieces of damage in after I was nearly wiped clean after a Perish.
The fact that he has flash I was also able to use duplicates to get some pretty money blocks. I like the performance, and I have always wanted to play with him so I'll be rocking him tomorrow.
I did however (to improve consistency) re-add a singleton Savannah to all but ensure that if I have him in my hand he will be hitting the table hopefully T2 but maybe T3.
This did raise a new problem however... Since I'm running fetch, and I can constantly get a single white mana why in earth am I not running Knight of the Reliquary? He GSZ'z at 4 and drops for 3. He's a beast on the board, and he enables the ever living hell out of Rampaging Baloths. This bothers me. I'm weird I don't want this to look like every other run-of-the-mill GSZ deck, but sometime you just have to give in to good cards. ...so if they have them relatively cheap at the store tomorrow I'll pick up 1 or 2 and run them in a few of the Vigor slots.
Well see...
Less the possible Reliquary switch below is the list I will likely be rocking at the tournament tomorrow (unless I get swayed otherwise by morning):
// Lands
10 [TSP] Forest
2 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
3 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
1 [R] Savannah
// Creatures
3 [ZEN] Rampaging Baloths
4 [TSP] Scryb Ranger
3 [BD] Llanowar Elves
4 [M12] Birds of Paradise
1 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
3 [LRW] Vigor
1 [UD] Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
3 [ROE] Mul Daya Channelers
1 [MBS] Thrun, the Last Troll
1 [RAV] Nullmage Shepherd
1 [M12] Dungrove Elder
4 [FUT] Aven Mindcensor
// Spells
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
4 [ZEN] Summoning Trap
3 [LRW] Garruk Wildspeaker
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [NPH] Phyrexian Metamorph
SB: 4 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [NPH] Beast Within
SB: 1 [RAV] Nullmage Shepherd
SB: 3 [WL] Null Rod
PS - I don't own the ooze, and I'd rather have the reliquary.
Hey Greenpoe! Thanks man.
As it stands right now I'm looking the change the purpose of that slot up a little. The epiphany of Aven Mindcensor I had this morning shifted the deck ever so slightly.
I have tested Aven in the slots listed above at a local store, and have been VERY happy with it. At one point I was able to live the dream and power flash him out in response to my opponents turn 2 fetch crack. He searched his top 4 and came up empty. He later told me that stopped a turn 2 Hymn to Tourach. In another match he kept the clock going to victory flying over my opponents developed board and putting the last few pieces of damage in after I was nearly wiped clean after a Perish.
The fact that he has flash I was also able to use duplicates to get some pretty money blocks. I like the performance, and I have always wanted to play with him so I'll be rocking him tomorrow.
I did however (to improve consistency) re-add a singleton Savannah to all but ensure that if I have him in my hand he will be hitting the table hopefully T2 but maybe T3.
This did raise a new problem however... Since I'm running fetch, and I can constantly get a single white mana why in earth am I not running Knight of the Reliquary? She GSZ'z at 4 and drops for 3. She's a beast on the board, and she enables the ever living hell out of Rampaging Baloths. This bothers me. I'm weird I don't want this to look like every other run-of-the-mill GSZ deck, but sometime you just have to give in to good cards. ...so if they have them relatively cheap at the store tomorrow I'll pick up 1 or 2 and run them in a few of the Vigor slots.
Well see...
Less the possible Reliquary switch below is the list I will likely be rocking at the tournament tomorrow (unless I get swayed otherwise by morning):
// Lands
10 [TSP] Forest
2 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
3 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
1 [R] Savannah
// Creatures
3 [ZEN] Rampaging Baloths
4 [TSP] Scryb Ranger
3 [BD] Llanowar Elves
4 [M12] Birds of Paradise
1 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
3 [LRW] Vigor
1 [UD] Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
3 [ROE] Mul Daya Channelers
1 [MBS] Thrun, the Last Troll
1 [RAV] Nullmage Shepherd
1 [M12] Dungrove Elder
4 [FUT] Aven Mindcensor
// Spells
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
4 [ZEN] Summoning Trap
3 [LRW] Garruk Wildspeaker
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [NPH] Phyrexian Metamorph
SB: 4 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [NPH] Beast Within
SB: 1 [RAV] Nullmage Shepherd
SB: 3 [WL] Null Rod
PS - I don't own the ooze, and I'd rather have the reliquary.
Hey Freggle, I started reading through this thread and think this deck is very cool, but I've got very limited time to test right now.
How would you feel about cutting Dungrove Elder altogether? I dislike how slow he is to get big, and he doesn't even have trample. Also, Perish seems like a major issue for this deck, which is why I would've thought that Garruk, Primal Hunter as a 1-of or 2-of might be good in one of the 6-drop slots (plus he's only 5 mana). Do you think NO Pro (or NO-Don?) in the SB would help out the MU's enough?
GSZ
Yeah Perish is a problem with any GSZ deck including NO RUG. The thing is we can usually out race it.
Many SB only run 2-3 copies, and rarely tutor for it so it's really not an issue. Every deck has something that owns it.
As for Garruk, Primal Hunter he's good. Actually not he's great... in a typical aggro deck.
The thing is this deck has a high curve, and Garruk 1 works better in it.
Typical openers go like this:
First 7: Do you have Summoning Trap? Yes -> Cast Mana dork | No? -> GSZ -> Arbor Dryad.
T2: land -> Mul Daya Channelers, (opponents turn) Scryb Ranger, or (opponents turn) Aven Mindcensor.
T3 Garruk or whatever. swing with the family 1-7 damage
Depending on what type of fight your opponent puts up and your draw luck next turn you plow out T4 your dropping finishers. T5 you can use Garruk's +3/+3 trample FTW a lot.
As for a NO board yes it could possibly help, but I don't own them yet but we'll see what happens if I land this trade I'm working on. ...but remember that is 12 "tutors"!
Major let down today. After driving 1 hour to the store that runs a weekly Legacy tournament I found that there wasn't enough people to play. They had a game day event and most Legacy players were in that.
Other notes when playing with the Knights in playtest matches they are a very welcomed addition. With Scryb Ranger enableing the Knights grabbing fetches and crackin 'em & Scryb and Knight enabeling Rampaging Baloths It gets out of hand extreamly fast.
If you knight -> fetch -> forest (return a forest) untap knight -> drop a forest Knight -> fetch -> forest. With a Baloth in play uou get 1 fat Knight that can be untapped via Scryb onyour opponents turn AND 5 count them 5. 4/4 creatures.
Silly.
Also last note. I added 1 Sylvan Safekeeper to the Sb inplace of shepherd. Mainly cause I wanted a ligitimate reason to call this deck TrapperKeeper.
There is another tourney Wed. I'm shooting for.
Wouldn't adding white then beg the question of adding at least swords to plowshares? Or is that not in the spirit of the deck. I haven't sleeved it up quite yet.
It's questionable. ...and I would say not in the spirit of the deck.
The deck begs your opponent to stop you or else. ...If they choose to counter they better hope they are packing heat for the trap or hope I don't have one.
Most of the time you can create favorable blocks to rid thw board of pesky creatures. Lackey? Fetch and Dryad Arbor post attack phase. ...same goes for Bob.
Also since Scryb and Aven have flash people will swing into air and will meet their maker. Especially with the Scryb untap post flash.
Beyond that [cards]Summoning Trap[cards] is an instant and produce a fattie out of thin air hard casted. To block stuff.
You also want to keep the summon spells to a maximum so that Trap os most effective.
It may eventually have a spot in the board for pro green things but for most eveything else green Vindicate Beast Within has been handleing that role quite well.
Summoning Trap + Garruk's Horde + Mul Daya Channelers looks like it could be extremely powerful.
I'm liking it. I will be upping the Mul Daya Channelers to 4 regardless.
I'm finding that with the inclusion of Knight of the Reliquary's shuffle effect grabbing more shuffle effects Misty Rainforest / Verdant Catacombs you able to find something good before the draw.
It's on par or better than fetch / top.
Vigor is on his way out as it's not that awesome all on it's own. I've been testing Primeval Titan in at least one of the slots (for more landfalls) & mana ramp, and have been liking it.
Speaking of ramp I also like how Knight of the Reliquary can ramp for 1 or more with Scryb Ranger you can tap and sac for an untapped land.
I'm taking a break for the deck today, but will start working on it again tomorrow I'm sure.
Okay, I couldn't stay away from the deck for a whole day (it's in the blood right now.)
So this deck is getting very, very interesting and starting to show it's identity to me. The best way I can describe it in a term would be aggro combo. As in you play good aggro creatures that happen to combo into tons of 4/4 vanilla beasts.
In realizing this is what it is, and taking some time away I was able to looks at some things more critically.
Specifically, Garruk Wildspeaker. The deck is built with a high density of creatures for 2 reasons. (1) to maximize the inclusion of and the effects of Summoning Trap & (2) To maximize the brokenness of Mul Daya Channelers.
In looking at these goals Garruk Wildspeaker was a bit of a weight as he is not a creature (or a land). He was added for his ramp, but with the inclusion of Knight of the Reliquary this decks opening mana requirements are lessened. Knight is cheap for this deck at CMC 3, and he has the opportunity to ramp himself as he grows.
So it's sad to say it was time to pull him out. This gave us 3 more slots to work with this is where my list is at today:
// Lands
10 [TSP] Forest (4)
2 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
3 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
1 [R] Savannah
// Creatures
3 [ZEN] Rampaging Baloths
4 [TSP] Scryb Ranger
3 [BD] Llanowar Elves
4 [M12] Birds of Paradise
1 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 [ROE] Mul Daya Channelers
1 [MBS] Thrun, the Last Troll
4 [FUT] Aven Mindcensor
2 [M12] Primeval Titan
2 [RAV] Nullmage Shepherd
3 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
// Spells
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
4 [ZEN] Summoning Trap
1 [M12] Garruk, Primal Hunter
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [NPH] Phyrexian Metamorph
SB: 3 [NPH] Beast Within
SB: 4 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [JU] Sylvan Safekeeper
SB: 3 [WL] Null Rod
I've played some MWS matches with it, and again to my surprise it is quite good. I do not believe it is optimal yet, but I certainly think something is here.
Last edited by Freggle; 08-15-2011 at 12:48 AM.
So after playing this list quite a bit tonight I judge the match-ups as follows:
Zoo: Very Favorable. Once you land a Knight, or Channler ...basically something bigger than their guys. The Match gets much tougher for them. They have to find their PTE before you start to go broken which does not take long.
Seeing Teeg Sucks, but he's not a game breaker.
SB: -1 shepherd +1 Elvish Safekeeper
No RUG: Even to favorable: Since we can come out hitting hard it put them on a short clock. This MU is where Summoning Trap shines. There have been a few games where a dazed mana dork traps into a game finisher. There have even been games where I double trap off of the initial 1st turn play. One was especially crazy where I double trapped into Baloths -> Primeval netting 2 more 4/4's.
Aven Mindcensor performs admirably.
SB: -2 Shepherd -2 Titan +4 Metamorph
CAW Blade: Even (perhaps slightly favorable): Once again the fast clock, the big dudes, and the traps make this match good. Aven is good here too. Their heavy spot removal, and wrath of god in the board makes it a game.
We can usually combo into a ton of 4/4's and they simply can not keep up.
SB: -2 Primeval -1 Channelers +3 Null Rod
more to come...
Edit: I thought it would be flavorful to add this. I played Hive Mind once on MWS tonight. I lost the match, but G2 he Pact of Negation, and I had an untapped Knight, Channeler and a Scryb on the board my topdeck was showing creature. I Knighted -> topdeck creature grabbed a fetch. Fetched -> topdeck GSZ. Returned forest untapped Knight. Knighted grabbing fetch -> topdeck creature, fetched topdeck ->creature. My turn untapped Knight -> Knighted grabbing fetch Top decked a Land, and paid the pact with the channelers. That was the first time I played against that deck, and it was cool.
Also, having Dryad Arbor on top is just funny. Options.
Hello again. I like where you are going Freggle. Garruk wildspeaker ie a good card that sometimes wins the game, but in my testing rarely I activate his ultimate for lethal. I it a good step to test without him.
I was also thinking in white for Reliquary, because it is too good with ranger, but i fear to finnally vlbecome too similar to my actual deck (GW Zenith). That's because Qasali is the next white inclusion, and then swords. But if it can stay away from that and just make a small splash for reliquary and maybe mindcensor, it could be quite promissing. I always love to play a turn two flashed mindcensor because although you are not noticing all his power, your opponnent is more worryued with him than mul daya or reliquary.
I will test a similar list, primaveral titan is something i want to test because is a good beater and can make good things, but i'm still thinking what else broken can do.
Now some questions. You have turn 1 mana dorks (aside from gsz), don't you feel they are too much? And you have to replace llanowar elves with noble hierarch. Safeekeeper is a must, but don't you think it deserves a maindeck slot? Is Nullmage shepherd superior to wickerbough elder? Can you activate it consistently? Combo matchups are really bad, specially high tide and dredge, and reanimator is not good also. Don't you have the same feeling?
Congratulations and we keep working.
Some tech I've been considering for Mono (or mostly) G ramp builds; Thorn of Amethyst + Phyrexian Metamorph. Metamorph can work as ramp, pressure, or pace control. It should be in the sideboard anyways as an out to Progenitus and Emrakul, the Aeons Torn.
@Freggle: You could run a Cradle, no?
I agree, and it has been quite promising. Qasali Pridemage although good would not make the cut here. Nullmage Shepherd and / or Wickerbough Elder would be a better fit for many reasons but mainly because they are positive CA, have meat to them, and the deck can support it's mana cost.
This has proven to be very true.
Sometimes yes. Most of the time no. The fact that they trigger Summoning Trap if countered, and from time to time eat removal makes them worth while. Ramping into a 3 CMC T2 such as Aven Mindcensor or Knight of the Reliquary is also very good. If it weren't for the traps I'd consider them to be Wild Growth and Utopia Sprawl as we run mainly basics, and they would be harder to answer. ...but we are running trap, and Channelers so they will stay mana dorks. I think the count is good.
No. I don't think I will. The plays fine without them. I also like that elves threaten lackeys, and confidants to stay at bay whereas Nobles do not.
No. Sacrificing a Forest is a major tempo loss. Most decks can not keep up spot removal to creature. It's better to just have another combo fattie. Some decks where the shoud is helpful it's better just to board in games 2 & 3.
I'm on the fence on that. Since we have so many mana dorks, and we can create more 4/4's I chose Nullmage Shepherd mainly because it is re-useable to get major CA of of her. ...plus you can block a fully grown Nacatyl right off the bat. I've only tested her, so I can not say for sure.
Now that is interesting. I'd test it right off the bat is Thorn of Amethyst was a creature (like Lodesotne Golem), but since it isn't it requires some thought. Phyrexian Metamorph is in the board specifically for an out to Progenitus and Emrakul, the Aeons Torn. Running Amethyst may be a good board play.
Since we do have a tiny white splash we do have access to Ethersworn Canonist if need be.
Edit: Ethersworn Canonist may not be good. She nullifies the greatness of triggered Summoning Traps.
You could, but I would recommend against it. It's just a target for Wasteland and we do not need the ramp. If you notice I took out Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary because the intensive ramp is not longer necessary because of the addition of Aven Mindcensor, Knight of the Reliquary and increase in Mul Daya Channelers. In other words the curve is smoother.
Speaking of Wasteland I love it when I play GSZ to Dryad Arbor and my opponent Wastelands my Arbor. That is a tempo gain for me.
Edit: I'm too lazy to look it up at the moment, but I believe this deck is a few cards swaps shy of Modern legal.
Last edited by Freggle; 08-15-2011 at 01:41 PM.
If there's a home for Aven Mindcensor, I think it's in green. He puts a hamper on any deck that relies on tutors and greedy manabases. On top of that, he makes mutual tutor cards like Weird Harvest, New Frontiers and Collective Voyage more abusable.
Between of few different ramp engines such as off/any color mana dorks, enchant lands like Utopia Sprawl, combined with numerous ways to fetch land or forest cards like Murmuring Bosk, Mono-G Ramp can splash all kinds of hate.
Freggle, you should try cutting 2x Green Sun's Zeniths for 2x Cream of the Crop. One you start cracking 4/4 Beasts on the board, it could allow you to cycle through your deck for just about anything. You have 6 tutors, you'll get one early, or this will help find them as you bust out creatures in the meantime. You have 10 one-drop mana ramp slots, so you don't have to worry about early accel. Depending on the situation Summoning Trap could work better too.
I'll be testing this tonight. That could be really good. The thing that worries me a tiny bit is that put's more of an enchantress-y like spin to the deck wherein you *should* play Cream of the Crop earlier than later to get it's greatest effect and complicating the T2 Aven Mindcensor / Knight of the Reliquary / Mul Daya Channelers plays.
...but it should be tested.
Edit: The other thing that worries me a little is that even though Summoning Trap & Green Sun's Zenith are not creatures when casted they produce one. ...So it is essentially like casting a creature which keep the pressure on strong. In the case of Cream of the Crop in a Green Sun's Zenith slot it's like adding card dis-advantage to the deck. Like a top deck tutor, but not immediately that good. I'll test it but I'm growing more sceptical.
To further this point more specifically for this deck Aven Mindcensor has been overall great at eating counters (and possibly triggering Summoning Trap), gobbling removal (taking attention away from the decks core beaters / combo-ers), and / or otherwise generally messing with your opponent.
He feels really good in here.
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