Yes, almost every deck played at least 3 GYhate. The finalist even played 10! I'm glad I escaped that one during the swiss... As for what I really saw: Extirpate (BUGstill), Relic (Bant, Burn, BUGstill, Zoo), Churgical Extraction (HiveMind, BUGstill, The Gate, Zoo) & Crypt (Zoo, Bant).Originally Posted by Izor
@ Darklingske: Is there a link you can post, with the decklists of the top 8 you played?
The utility of your third Phantasmagorian is irrelevant when you're trying to either Draw 1 or Dredge into 2 as fast as possible, it still feeds Ichorid regardless. Seriously tho', I don't think you guys are playtesting your deck G1 vs. competent pilots of Zoo, Goblins, Affinity and Elves and you're just assuming your G1 wins are much higher than they really are: otherwise you'd realize how ineffective Baubles are and you'd cut them for a better draw engine.
Not playing LED/DA and Phantasmagorian MD is wrong, also cut stupid, cute shit like the River Kelpie and play a Terrastadon so you don't auto scoop G1 vs. stuff like Lands and throw your entire match up - it's greedy.
That's just the thing. I'm not trying to draw into Phantasmagorian at all, and I'm certainly not trying to dredge into 2 as fast as possible. What I'm trying to do is win the game, and Phantasmagorian, while a useful tool, is far from necessary for either of my lists to do that. I typically run 2-3, but I don't run any if I don't have the room, such as in the Hexmage list. I think that's an entirely reasonable approach.
The Glimpse Elves matchup is a bit closer than I'd like, but cutting Baubles isn't going to help it at all.
Goblins is dead.
Zoo is an extremely favorable matchup. I've got the testing to back this up.
Affinity isn't quite as favorable as Zoo, imo, but it's darn close.
You have a 15% chance of drawing both LED and DA in your opening hand. Add on the chance of also having a dredger (which is high but far from 100%), and the odds of your DA doing anything at all are looking pretty low. Even if you have LED and cantrip once or twice, you still need to hit multiple dredgers and a DA, which is again not the most likely thing in the world. In fact, it seems like the very definition of 'cute'.
Additionally, what happens if you blank on a dredger or two after dumping your hand? You get to play DDD from 1-2 cards instead of 7. Without LED, the deck can be tuned to turn 3 fairly consistently and turn 2 ~20% of the time. This is fundamentally faster than combo elves, as well as every aggro deck. The only reason to go faster is if you need to win on turn 2 against some sort of turn 3 combo deck. Alternately, you can play combo hate and not introduce 8 questionable cards to the main-deck.
Scooping vs. Lands? You're kidding, right? How many cards do they have that do anything relevant against us? Tabernacle does very little, only Glacial Chasm allows them a chance to win the game, and only if they've already got their engine online. Woodfall Primus seems a lot better than Terastodon in the slot.
Despite the fact that I think LED and DA are inherently unstable, I would be happy to be proven wrong (it's always good to make my deck better.) Can you post your list with them in it? Do you have a sideboard worked out?
Are you sure cutting draw spells would be a good option? Maximizing the probability of LED + draw spells seems like the best way to go if you’re trying to outspeed something like ANT. It may very well have been greedy of me to cut Shambling Shell in testing, but dredging three in a racing situation seems pretty dreadful anyway. Ichorid also seems like an uncuttable card, simply because of how important it is in hitting the necessary three creatures to cast Dread Return. You bring up a great point though in the fact that a resolved Dread Return on Chancellor might as well be game, so cutting the DR targets before Shambling Shell seems right. If I were you, I’d try out:
-2 Nether Shadow
-2 Phantasmagorian (not completely sure of this)
-4 DR targets
+4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
+4 Chancellor of the Annex,
and if you want to run four more anti-combo cards:
-4 Shambling Shell
+4 Mindbreak Trap/Serum Powder/Shelkin Brownie to amuse yourself/whatever
And yes, with the sideboard in consideration, objectively superior.
I’m completely open to LED in the main if it improves the deck. In theory, it could be superior to Baubles in that it potentially speeds up the deck a full turn, which when you consider that the deck wins on turn 3.5 on average (very rough estimate), is huge. I don’t like that DA completely relies on LED mana, and the fact that if you do indeed want to win on turn two you’ll likely have to cast LED on turn one into Force of Will, but I will definitely test your recommendations. Where you lost me, however, was cutting River Kelpie, a card that facilitates any silver bullet DR target you might wish to find, for Terastodon. It’s not greedy at all to not run something like that in the main; a decision to run a card like that is a concrete one rather than an abstract one, pretty much completely dependent on your local scene. Since my area doesn’t really have a Stax representative right now (we can beat Lands easily if it doesn’t draw Chasm or Ensnaring Bridge because Tabernacle doesn’t do shit), I don’t really see the use in running one in the main.
I agree with this post pretty much word for word aside from Primus over Terastodon (Terastodon is the safer card). I’ve been using Phanta way more as a discard six than chaining multiples, meaning multiples don’t matter as much, meaning you don’t really need to maximize on it (although I can't blame someone for wanting to run a playset, the card is quite good, and I'd much rather see two than none).
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Refering to the two posts above.
As of the matchups mentioned, I also agree that usual aggro matchups like Merfolk, Zoo and Goblins are hugely in our favor. Even if we can only DDD, having so many free creatures and relevant stuff in the bin, we usually overwhelm them pretty easily.
Another story, however, is the Affinity matchup. Among all the aggro matchups, this is by far the worst for us. I can test against Affinity as much as I want (because I own both decks among others) and it's really in their favor. The mana builds can explode in their face and win (I guess a manaless LED+Deep Anal list could do as well), but the usual manaless lists will mostly lose. The main strategy against Aggro decks are two things: block their strongest attackers with Nether Shadows and Zombies and build up a lethal Zombie army. Affinity is the only aggro deck that can attack both of those axes pretty easily. As soon as they have a Ravager, you won't ever have access to any Bridge during the rest of the game. At the same time, 12 Flying dudes as well as the mighty Etched Champion will make quick work if you're trying to defend yourself with Zombie/Shadow chumps, especially if they have Plating.
As of how many Phantasmagorians one should play, I think I'd never run less than 4.
While I can absolutely understand arguments like 'I only want to find one per game and dump 6 into it once', I think that the sole presence of Nether Shadow always makes me want to find one ASAP, which makes the playset necessary. I actually do NOT want to pitch 6 cards to one Taz as soon as I find it, I actually want to find 2 asap and slowly chain them in order to have access to all my Nether Shadows each turn. If I have more than 2 I feed them to Ichorid.
In other instances, it can be huge i you have it in your opener and can start your 2nd turn with Ichorid, Nether Shadows, Bridge and multiple Dredgers already in your yard. Then again, I really want the playset. If I don't have any Taz yet, I just reeealy want to find one. I guess I want to find the first Taz even before the first Bridge. I'm just always happy to have at least 2.
Couldn't resist, could you?
@ Final Fortune- I have a lot of free time tomorrow, so if you post up your latest LED list, I can do a side-by-side speed comparison with the eight Bauble list. Something like a hundred goldfishes apiece seems like it would suffice.
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Affinity is certainly one of the best decks at attacking dredge, but it's still an aggro deck and still loses if you just kill them on turn 3 (and the same is typically true of turn 4). If your list can do that, it'll have a good affinity matchup (although not quite as stellar as most other aggro matchups).
I think we're clearly using Phantasmagorian in different ways, and we both seem to recognize that this leads to a difference in the number of Phantasmagorian. This is fine with me. I do object, however, to people who look at the 8-bauble list and dismiss it based on the relative scarcity of Phantasmagorian / Nether Shadow. I don't think it suffers at all (or very little) for the loss of those cards.
Ok, Lion's Eye Diamond does not require you to draw a Deep Analysis in your opening hand, nor does it require you to draw multiple Dredgers to Dredge twice. Lion's Eye Diamond only requires Deep Analysis to be in your graveyard, which means Lion's Eye Diamond can and should be held in your hand until you've Dredged into a Deep Analysis by either your second or third turn. Furthermore Dredge is a replacement effect, in which case you are allowed to replace the 1st instance of the Draw 2 on Deep Analysis with a Dredge, discarding X cards and potentially an additional Dredger, before you have to replace the 2nd instance of the Draw 2 with another Dredger.
I'm tired of arguing over cutting Phantasmagorian and Nether Shadow, there are just too many unnecessary copies of Dread Return, Dread Return Targets, Shambling Shells and Baubles in your deck that I would cut before core cards - the deck would be so much better with 3 Dread Return, 2 Sphinx of Lost Truths, 1 Flame Kin Zealot, 1 Shambling Shell, and only 7 Baubles for full sets of Phantasmagorian and Nether Shadow.
Regarding the MD Terrastadon, by Lands I meant "RandomLockCards.dec," having some insurance vs. Moat, Glacial Chasm etc. goes a long way, but if you'd rather bare back the metagame that's your call. I just think River Kelpie is way too conditional and win more, you tend to remember all of the games you won by drawing your deck and disregard the games you lost because you only Dredged once where Sphinx of Lost Truths would've won you game by being much better in marginal situations.
As far as what I'm running,
4 Serum Powder
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Deep Analysis
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Shambling Shell
4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow
4 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
4 Dread Return
2 Sphinx of Lost Truths
2 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Cabal Therapy
And
4xStreet Wraith
4xDakmor Salvage
4xBloodghast
3xTerrastadon
That's pretty much my entire philosophy behind the deck as it stands.
Edit @ Kevin, I think you can actually SB Ichorid and/or Nether Shadow in favor of MDing Dakmor Salvage and Bloodghasts game 1, it's something I've been thinking alot about but don't really have time to playtest it.
Edit Edit, also if you guys are desinging your SBs to beat any one, unfavorable match up I think you should disregard Storm and focus on Reanimator, because Storm pretty much auto wins game 1 and laughs at your SB cards games 2/3 but Leyline of the Void and that black Faerie fuck over Reanimator pretty hard. I'm pretty sure you get way more utility out of hedging vs. other graveyard decks than Storm judging from the ass kickings I've received vs TES with even 12 cards SBed in for that match up.
Yesterday I wound up playing Manaless Dredge to a perfect 4-0 record in a twenty-plus-man tournament in Springfield, Virginia. For reference, here is the list I played:
4x Ichorid
4x Bridge from Below
4x Narcomoeba
4x Mishra's Bauble
4x Street Wraith
4x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Golgari Thug
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Nether Shadow
4X Shambling Shell
4x Dread Return
4x Phantasmagorian
4x Cabal Therapy
2x Urza's Bauble
2x Sphinx of Lost Truths
2x Gigapede
1x River Kelpie
1x Flame-Kin Zealot
//Sideboard
4x Land Grant
4x Reverent Silence
4x Emerald Charm
3x Forest
I wound up running into BUG, NO-Rug (piloted by Alix Hatfield), and Burn after receiving a first-round bye.
Most of the action was pretty self-explanatory, as you can imagine with a Manaless Dredge-variant. I was able to explode on my opponents with the addition of the fourth Phantasmagorian - who enabled me to setup broken turn two plays involving Baubles and Street Wraith. I am quite happy taking them up to four as they've pretty much allowed me to speed the deck up to extraordinarily fast levels.
I decided for this event that raw speed was necessary as most of the meta there is predominantly Mystic and No-Rug, with the occasional Merfolk and Bant. Either way, I am convinced this is the way to go with the deck; I managed to bypass Deed and Leyline in the BUG match due in large part to the explosiveness behind the aforementioned cards. I was quite pleased with the removal of Bloodghasts and Dakmor Salvages; it just seems a little too slow in the deck and quite frankly it doesn't provide anything except a way to recur threats mid to late game when there really shouldn't be either anyways.
I removed Iona and in its stead played River Kelpie, who effectively let me 'Dredge-out' my entire deck in practically a single turn. I managed to blow the game wide open with him in play against BUG, and it allowed me to dig deeper into the deck to find a second or third Dread Return to nail down a Zealot or multiple Therapies to crush my opponent's hand.
The sideboard needs a little work, but not much. I was very pleased with it - especially again against BUG as my opponent ran cards like Deed and Leyline. He was playing multiples of each at a time, to where a Reverent Silence off the top could have been a blowout. He was trading threats for an overkill package dedicated to hate-out aggressive decks like Dredge, and because I was able to keep a hand with Grant/Charm the third game, I felt comfortable at the very least knowing I have an out to his Ace. Fortunately, he didn't draw one, and his Deed didn't even have time to hit the board as he was dead on turn two.
Against Burn, the deck pretty much raced and I blew the guy out after he ramped up a few spells to my dome and I managed to Therapy away his remaining spells. The Baubles came in especially handy because they let me know what my clock looks like (I used Mishra's Bauble for example to see an Arid Mesa on top of his deck, which gave me less of a sense of urgency). I feel the Baubles' information is actually quite useful, and to be honest Gitaxian Probe just would be a mistake in a deck like this absolutely requiring all means to Dredge additional cards without falling prey to Misstep.
One 'Time Walk' a game should be plenty to give away already.
NO-Rug was a battle predicated on how fast Alix could Natural Order out a Progenitus, which wasn't too much of a threat barring a hand with no burn to knock-out my Bridges. I was able to circumvent that by exploding with Phantasmagorian-Street Wraith-Bauble long before he had a chance to do anything. Nether Shadow beats were relevant, and a solid Dread Return targeting Zealot was just enough to seal the deal.
I'm really happy with my take on the deck, and considering the vast improvement I was able to make from week to week, shuffling cards in and out of the main and sideboard, I was able to rest on a build that seems quite efficient for what it is trying to do.
For reference, here were my changes and additions going into this event:
-4 Bloodghast
-3 Dakmor Salvage
-1 Gigapede
-1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
+4 Mishra's Bauble
+2 Urza's Bauble
+1 River Kelpie
+1 Phantasmagorian
+1 Sphinx of the Lost Truths
The changes made have sped the deck up exponentially and again, have proven at least in testing and tournament play to be quite effective.
The sideboard remains to be adjusted. In a local meta, the current configuration seems appropriate. However, in an event of "Open Series" magnitude, I would probably cut some hate for some additional targets.
@Hollywood
I played a similar MD, -2 Gigapede +2 Bauble, before I turned to Lion's Eye Diamond and I agree 12 cantrips, 0 Phyrexian Probes and the full set of Phantasmagorian and Nether Shadow is the way to go for non-LED lists.
Do you not find the Dakmor Salvage and Bloodghast engine not increasing your win percentage over Baubles game 2 vs. non-LotV hate? I usually find Baubles to be a liability post-board and always want to SB them out.
I am in the process of reconfiguring the sideboard to possibly board in to that package; the Baubles game one provide so much speed that it's ridiculous, especially with Street Wraith.
Right now, I am more concerned with the sideboard. I like the hate plan, but I want to trim it down a tad.
Also, Phantasmagorian is arguably the best card in this deck. It enables broken plays much faster than a single discard for the end of turn, and cards like Lion's Eye Diamond can become a liability if you're seriously depending on it. I really feel the deck also wants to keep a Gigapede or two in; it gives you the flexibility to confuse your opponent and baits graveyard hate. It becomes more relevant than one might think in certain circumstances.
Sample hands 1-50 w/ Final Fortune's list (aside from -1 Flame-kin Zealot for +1 Sphinx of Lost Truths, which seems almost strictly better in a list with four Phantasmagorian). Testing done using Magic Workstation. You'll just have to trust my playing ability:
Number of cards in starting hand/Was Serum Powder in any opening hand?/Number of Serum Powder uses/Was LED cast?/Winning turn
Hand 1- 7/No/0/No/3
Hand 2- 7/No/0/No/5
Hand 3- 7/No/0/Yes/3
Hand 4- 7/Yes/1/Yes/5
Hand 5- 7/Yes/0/Yes/3
Hand 6- 7/No/0/Yes/2
Hand 7- 6/No/0/Yes/4
Hand 8- 7/Yes/1/No/6
Hand 9- 7/Yes/1/No/4
Hand 10- 7/No/0/Yes/3
Hand 11- 4/Yes/1/Yes/5
Hand 12- 7/Yes/0/Yes/4
Hand 13- 7/No/0/Yes/1
Hand 14- 6/Yes/2/Yes/4
Hand 15- 7/Yes/3/Yes/3
Hand 16- 7/No/0/Yes/3
Hand 17- 7/No/0/Yes/4
Hand 18- 7/Yes/1No/6
Hand 19- 7/Yes/1/Yes/2
Hand 20- 6/Yes/0/Yes/4
Hand 21- 7/No/0/No/5
Hand 22- 7/No/0/Yes/3
Hand 23- 7/Yes/0/No/3
Hand 24- 7/Yes/1/Yes/2
Hand 25- 7/No/0/No/6
Hand 26- 7/No/0/Yes/4
Hand 27- 7/No/0/No/6
Hand 28- 7/No/0/No/4
Hand 29- 7/No/0/No/5
Hand 30- 6/No/0/Yes/4
Hand 31- 7/No/0/No/4
Hand 32- 7/No/0/No/6
Hand 33- 7/No/0/Yes/2
Hand 34- 7/Yes/1/Yes/2
Hand 35- 7/No/0/No/3
Hand 36- 7/Yes/0/No/5
Hand 37- 6/No/0/Yes/4
Hand 38- 7/No/0/No/5
Hand 39- 7/Yes/0/No/4
Hand 40- 7/Yes/0/No/4
Hand 41- 6/No/0/Yes/2
Hand 42- 7/Yes/0/No/6
Hand 43- 7/No/0/Yes/2
Hand 44- 7/No/0/No/6
Hand 45- 7/No/0/No/5
Hand 46- 7/No/0/No/4
Hand 47- 4/No/0/Yes/7
Hand 48- 7/Yes/1/Yes/5
Hand 49- 7/No/0/Yes/2
Hand 50- 7/No/0/No/3
Averages:
Mean starting hand: 6.76
Mode starting hand: 7
Mean winning turn: 3.94
Mode winning turn: 4
Mean winning turn with LED having been cast: 3.296
Mode winning turn with LED having been cast: 2;4
Mean winning turn with LED not having been cast: 4.696
Mode winning turn with LED not having been cast: 6
Mean winning turn with Serum Powder in an opening hand: 4.053
Mode winning turn with Serum Powder in an opening hand: 4
Mean winning turn without Serum Powder in an opening hand: 3.871
Mode winning turn without Serum Powder in an opening hand: 4
Mean winning turn with a use of Serum Powder: 4.000
Mode winning turn with a use of Serum Powder: 2;5
Mean winning turn without a use of Serum Powder: 3.923
Mode winning turn without a use of Serum Powder: 4
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Sample hands 1-50 w/ ajfirecracker's eight Bauble list (aside from -1 River Kelpie for +1 Sphinx of Lost Truths):
Number of cards in starting hand/Was Phantasmagorian binned (before DR-ing Sphinx)?/Winning turn
Hand 1- 7/Yes/4
Hand 2- 7/No/3
Hand 3- 7/Yes/4
Hand 4- 7/Yes/3
Hand 5- 7/Yes/4
Hand 6- 7/Yes/4
Hand 7- 7/No/4
Hand 8- 7/No/6
Hand 9- 7/Yes/3
Hand 10- 7/Yes/4
Hand 11- 7/Yes/4
Hand 12- 6/Yes/5
Hand 13- 7/Yes/3
Hand 14- 7/Yes/4
Hand 15- 7/No/3
Hand 16- 7/Yes/3
Hand 17- 7/Yes/3
Hand 18- 7/Yes/4
Hand 19- 7/Yes/3
Hand 20- 7/Yes/4
Hand 21- 7/Yes/3
Hand 22- 7/No/4
Hand 23- 7/Yes/3
Hand 24- 7/No/3
Hand 25- 7/Yes/4
Hand 26- 7/Yes/4
Hand 27- 7/No/5
Hand 28- 7/Yes/4
Hand 29- 7/No/4
Hand 30- 7/No/3
Hand 31- 7/No/3
Hand 32- 7/Yes/4
Hand 33- 7/Yes/2
Hand 34- 6/Yes/6
Hand 35- 7/Yes/4
Hand 36- 7/No/4
Hand 37- 7/Yes/5
Hand 38- 6/Yes/4
Hand 39- 6/Yes/4
Hand 40- 7/No/4
Hand 41- 7/No/4
Hand 42- 7/Yes/5
Hand 43- 7/Yes/4
Hand 44- 7/Yes/5
Hand 45- 7/Yes/4
Hand 46- 7/Yes/5
Hand 47- 7/Yes/4
Hand 48- 7/Yes/4
Hand 49- 7/Yes/5
Hand 50- 6/Yes/5
Phantasmagorian available in 74% of games before casting Dread Return
Averages:
Mean starting hand: 6.900
Mode starting hand: 7
Mean winning turn: 3.940
Mode winning turn: 4
Mean winning turn with a seven card hand: 3.844
Mode winning turn with a seven card hand: 4
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What do you think about this new creature?
Reaper from the Abyss
Card Type: Creature
Creature Type: Demon
Power/Toughness:6/6
Casting Cost: 3BBB
Card Text: Flying
Morbid -- At the beginning of each end step, if a creature died this turn, destroy target non-Demon creature.
This is a pretty remarkable result. It would suggest (apparently fairly strongly) that Final Fortune's package is (on average) the same speed as my (anti-fast-combo, right?) list.
I would be interested in the relevant stats for my Hexmage-transformable list, but don't really have the time to run it myself. With 3 River Kelpie and the Bloodghast package, I'm beginning to suspect that it's actually a bit faster than the anti-fast-combo list. It needs Phantasmagorian more strongly, though, and unfortunately doesn't really have the room (unless you start cutting Baubles, which I'm reluctant to do for SB reasons).
Just to prevent any potential confusion, that was the maindeck Final Fortune presented above (with the noted change) pitted against the maindeck of the eight Bauble list (with the noted change):
4 GGT
4 Stinky
4 Thug
4 Shambling Shell
8 Baubles
4 Probe
4 Wraith
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
2 Nether Shadow
4 Dread Return
4 Bridge
4 Therapy
3 Sphinx
1 FKZ
2 Phantasmagorian
Also, I'd just like to note that Manaless Dredge won me a game earlier tonight at the weekly Legacy tourney I went to even though I didn't even play the deck. My opponent put me on Manaless since he saw me play it last week, and when he won the roll, he put me on the play. I was playing Reanimator. Pretty sweet.
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Follow the link :
http://www.benelegacy.nl/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3761
I'm not certain whether or not the mean average is as imporant as the exact distribution of turn 1, 2 and 3 wins LED decks have over Bauble decks, becausing racing other deck's fundamental turns is what's relevant.
Thanks for putting in the work tho' Kevin.
I'm not certain whether or not the mean average is as imporant as the exact distribution of turn 1, 2 and 3 wins LED decks have over Bauble decks, becausing racing other deck's fundamental turns is what's relevant.
Thanks for putting in the work tho' Kevin.
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