http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...-8-Junk-Depths)
Tournament report up. Sorry it took so long, I've been pretty busy lately. And please don't be too critical as this is the first one I've ever written.
I'll hopefully be posting a new list in the next few days. I'm hoping to have my own twist on Junk-Depths, and update my regular junk list, I've just been away from my cards for a while while on Vacation! :P
-Matt
Hi! A week without updates in this forum... It's The Rock dying?
Not at all but, I'd be kicking a dead horse if I tried to tell people to find ways to cut goyf. I've removed them all now and the only thing that I can say is that I miss the deeds... as soon I get a chance, I'm tossing 2 somewhere in the 75.
I was on vacation, and just got home. Sorry 'bout that!
I'm actually going to being trying a Hexmage build that isn't so all-in. Basically, the combo is there, but I'm not running Missteps or Wishes, allowing me to run more of the traditional Rock cards. With the Hexmage version, I'm usually Wishing for things that get countered, discarded, or aren't fast enough. I usually just pound face with Knights and such, since my opponents usually just Clique me, keep an open Wasteland, or Stifle my shit.
-Matt
I put this over on salvation today since it looked like this site was down. However it seems timely as someone else was looking for a better list then the current Junk Depths
I've been playing legacy rock for over a year now and have seen a lot of success with it. Recently though I found the need to update the traditional rock build since the introduction of GSZ.
I want to stress a few points here. I play a more traditional build of rock. A deck that goes for incremental advantages over each turn. I've stuck to the traditional color build as well (3 colors g,b,w). I posted on source that I was going to test and re-test a variety of different rock builds to see which I felt was the best. I've finally finished and arrived at my current decklist that I am quite happy with.
Versions of rock that I test included - Traditional with GSZ, traditional with a full SFM package. 4 color (adding red), Junk Depths, Traditional plus the hexmage combo, and also a traditional with a full loam package.
I tested against 4 archtypes which were UB Stoneblade, Fish, NO Rug, and Zoo. I play a little over 20 games with each version of Rock against each archtype.
First a few high level comments on the archetypes I built and tested.
Traditional with GSZ
I could never get any rock lists with GSZ to run like I wanted it to. It's an extremely powerful effect, but rock is generally creature light. GSZ seems to shine when you run more creatures. Ultimately I decided GSZ didn't belong in a more traditional rock build. It may still work as a 1 or 2 of though.
Traditional with a full SFM package
When the deck worked, it worked well. Having 3-4 SFM was overkill though. Being able to cheat in a batterskull against Fish or Zoo was always a GG. However the deck lost the incremental advantages it always had over other decks. I cut 1 creature here or there, to squeeze it in, or I went lighter on the discard. Either way to fit in 3-4 SFM with a minimum of 2 equipments was simply changing the deck to much, and made it less consistent.
4 color Rock
This was simply a horrible idea. It was too shaky, and to easily disrupt-able. This is a shame since I loved the 4 color loam decks. However in testing this deck it did later cue me onto what I now consider a great idea which was Loam.
Junk Depths & Traditional plus hexmage combo
For starters I am not a fan of running the wish version. Which is why I switched over to traditional plus the combo. I ran 4 hexmages and 4 darkpeths, plus loam. To be honest I might be able to make this work even better. The Junk Depths that is rotating around though again takes away the incremental advantages aspect of Rock and tries to go for a quick kill. I got blown out too many times when it was online. For reference I'm not a closed book on going more traditional with it. Here is my current traditional list with the Hexmage Combo.
3 Scrubland
2 Bayou
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
4 Dark Depths
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Volarth's Stronghold
1 Maze of Ith
3 Wasteland
3 Mox Diamond
4 Dark Confidant
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Swords to plowshares
3 Vindicate
2 Life from the loam
2 Sensei's Divining Top
Important things about traditional plus the combo. You want to drop the wish and add in life from the loam. There is way to much synergy between loam, stronghold, hexmage, and dark depths to pass up. Honestly there is way to much synergy in loam with traditional rock period to pass up. You want to keep 3 mox diamonds in this build as it lets you toss an extra dark depths if your hand is flooded with them. If your opponent is able to answer the combo with say a swords the stronghold and loam enable you to reset yourself back up. This was key in the match ups I had previous lost with the Junk Depths list. Like I said, I can get behind this build, but it still needs a little more tweaking. Maybe adding in a Urborg or witness, not sure yet. One last coment is that this decklist preformed the best against Stoneblade. Having access to 4 hexmages in the main made Jace no issue at all.
However below is the deck I ended up with. It's very versatile, sticks to what makes Rock a good deck, and does it well.
Land Base
3 Scrublands
2 Bayou
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Mars Flats
4 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Riftstone Portal
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Volarth's Stronghold
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
Mana Excel
2 Mox Diamond
Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Stoneforge Mystic
Equipment
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
Discard
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
Removal
3 Sword to Plowshares
4 Vindicate
2 Pernicious Deed
Card Advantage
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Life from the Loam
Sideboard
3 Leyline of Sancity
3 Leyline of the void
1 Thrun, the last troll
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Engineered Plague
3 Inquisition of Kozelik
There is A LOT I can say about some of the interactions. The first is I did decided to fit in a bare bones SFM package, and a singleton Loam. I did this because I hate getting multiple Tops, they are pointless when you have more then 1. I found going down to two acceptable however I needed to still generate some CA. This is where Loam comes in. Loam enables me to further maximize my value of Mox Diamonds, Wastelands, Stronghold, Dryad Arbor, Goyf, and Knight.
Previously I ran 2 Jittes, and cut 1 for the batterskul, and cut a Mox diamond for a singleton SFM. I didn't need run 2 since the SFM acts as the tutor.
I was one of the first to advocate the use of Stronghold in Rock and will continue to do so. It's great and when your opponent can finally answer it, if you have the Loam it's just a blowout. I liked the more functional lands that 4 color loam ran so I included a copy of Riftstone Portal to help with the mana, and stick with the GY theme.
I've toyed around adding in some of the cycling lands and threshold lands, but I didn't think about it till to late in testing.
Basically in this package you have the singleton SFM and when it hits it's great, however you still have the core strong package of Rock to rely on. It's ran excellent for me, so I encourage you to sleeve it up and try it.
i actually like the dephts/traditional hybrid the most, and maybe i will try it out soon (just not now because i'm a bit ill right now :(, but i really have to see how it works)
i never liked the wish versions as well, it was to much of an all in on the combo IMO, and easily disruptable
and i do not like SFM in the rock, may be just preference or whatever but i do not think he should be in this deck
Admittedly I need to explore the traditional deck with depths more, my version while I like it better does still have room to grow. I also want to get more value out of LftL as well. I might try and fit in cycling lands. I'll end up doing that more over the next 3 weeks probably.
Traditional Rock with Depths ideas to work through
1. Do I go to 4 mox to become more explosive? (On the chopping block would be a deed probably, this would allow me to dump multiple Urborgs, get more value out of LftL too)
2. If I go to 3 LftL, can I think of way to fit in 5 cycle lands? (Also need to consider up to 2 Urborg)
Just these two ideas together could really make the deck explosive.
3. It may be worth running 1 wish in this build (Acts as a 5th of all important spells, may make the deck more consistent. Key though from previous testing, do not dedicate the deck to this idea, over committing makes the deck weaker).
As a general rule of thumb I've learned it's always good to start with the strict traditional build and tweak from there.
i am against wishes as 1-offs, specially since you will be needing a wishboard, which takes precious sideboardslots, i think in that case wish should be at least a 3-off
i would not play any cycle lands, since they slow the deck,.... aggro loam can afford it because its allmost based on it and runs 25-27 lands, we only run 23-24, but if you want to go loam-heavy you could cut hymn or divining top(sad to say so, because i simply love hymn and top) and add some cycling lands
an alternative would be horizon canopy, which does not slow you down, and gives you extra draw for later in the game, but at the cost of a land-drop
but it is awesome with life from the loam or crucible
going to 4 mox diamonds would only be a matter of space, if you can afford to cut something i would definitely do it, it makes the tempoboost for the first few turns much more consistent, though you will have more dead cards later on (so filtering with divining top would be nice)
in the aggro loam thread was posted a list similar to that (loam-heavy), it had hymn cut completely, also swords to plowshares, and thoughtseize
in their place came in 4 chalice of the void, and some mix of black removal (smother, go for the throat, dismember,..... choose yourself)
one question though, would you consider going from 4 dephts to 2 acceptable, (i only own 2) or what are your experiences with a lower dephts count?
I had originally cut the canopy for a stronghold. I might have to consider putting it back in, we'll see. You can probably get by with 2. You will just see it less in your opening hand or first few turns. You'll probably have to rely on a knight activation to fetch it out.
I started to do some brewing going back to a stock traditional list and working in the combo. I think I will stay with 3 Moxs so far. Might go down to a singleton LftL. Still brewing. Testing tonight against a local ascension deck, stoneblade and fish.
I was considering how the deck would be changed should the wish package be cut from the depths build. I was considering what the most relavent matchups were and it seems like Merfolk, UW stoneblade, NO RUG, Zoo, and BW stoneblade were the biggest factors of the metagame. To me it seems like a LftL and wasteland draw is usually pretty good against most of these decks, with MM and swords zoo cant beat a loam either. I was thinking something along these lines would be good...
Land Base
7 Fetchlands
5 Duals
1 Basic
4 Wasteland
3 Dark Depths
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
Mana Excel
4 Mox Diamond
Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Hexmage
Sorceries
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
3 Life from the Loam
Instants
4 Sword to Plowshares
4 Mental Misstep
This would be a list I would be pretty happy to play as it seems pretty strong against most of the field, but obviously needs testing. Sadly I do not have the time to properly test being I'm at college and I don't know any magic players here anyways.
Mana Excel? Are you guys making spreadsheets with your mana?? *cough* Acceleration..
There's so much attention on Junk Depths lists right now. I personally am not a fan of these lists. I know the argument is and has always been "Junk/Rock just doesn't do anything unfair in a format full of unfair decks" but the thing is...it does. Hymn to Tourach is unfair. Sneaking Batterskull is unfair. Having an 8/8 KotR on turn 4 is unfair. I think Junk Depths lists are diluted versions of what is being called "Traditional" Junk here. Anyone else feel this?
The only thing that's awkward is the amount you use the word awkward.
I'll be honest, I ran Junk Depths against NO RUG and lost quite a few of the games. Resolved Natural Order hurts a lot.
Also, what about cutting Tops for Sylvan Libraries? Cuts down on the constant mana investment in Top...
I'll be honest, right now, I don't personally have a build I like. But, I'm really leaning to Damion's builds. They seem good :)
-Matt
Here's my decklist.
I want to do the dark depths package, but it is very very tight.
Creatures
1x scavenging ooze
2x tarmogoyf
4x knight of the reliquary
4x dark confidant
1x qasali pridemage
1x gaddock teeg
instant
4x swords to plowshare
sorcery
3x vindicate
4x hymn to tourach
4x thoughtseize
3x greensun zenith
1x life from the loam
artifacts
3x mox diamond
3x sensei's divining top
lands
3x bayou
1x maze of ith
3x wasteland
1x bojuka bog
3x marsh flat
4x verdant catacombs
1x plains
1x forest
1x swamp
1x dryad arbor
1x scrubland
1x savannah
1x karakas
1x volrath's stronghold
If i go the dark depths route,
i would have to lose
3x greensun zenith
1x dryad arbor
1x gaddock teeg
1x quasli pridemage
in
3x vampire hexmage
1x dark depth
1x life from the loam
1x tarmogoyf
what do you guys think? (especially you matt)
I think the most important thing right now is not finding lists we like for reasons that we can't explain or may not be as valid as we thought. For now I think the most important thing is to realize what parts of the meta are growing and how hard the matchups are so we know how our deck should be built to combat it.
I don't think that the Hexmage Depths combo is really that great. I mean you win times, but often trying to combo them is just not good in most situations you're in. The thing is that the combo is just inherently good against Jace, and the way the control decks are working now. LftL gives you comparable card advantage that constantly attacks their manabase where their card advantage is to deal with all sorts of problems being they are the controlling decks. Next, GSZ isn't as powerful in this deck as it is in all the other decks that use it. NO RUG uses it as a toolbox/acceleration which is extremely vital to their plan. Other NO decks us this the same way. Zoo decks have also stopped using GSZ because it is really easier just to run more creatures than trying to find specific ones. The next unconventional thing that most people are too ingrained to think about is that Tarmogoyf is often weak in several matchups. Goyf is actually weak against most slow U control decks. Often you never really beat them by just playing a few guys and smash them down, but whenever I played them in Richmond I always beat the U control decks by recurring Loam and destroying their lands and drawing a bunch of cards off Bob.
Just FYI, reasons why I think Depths combo is good against Jace
1. Hexmage can just nuke Jace
2. If you have a Hexmage and a Depths/Active Knight than they can't try to play Jace and bounce a creature. The best thing they can do is just try to brainstorm for an answer or they have to play a flying dude to block. Often the right play is to just activate knight to get a Maze so it will keep them off Jace while at the same time being able to attack every turn.
3. Having extra 2 power creatures means it's easier to have out 2 creatures and on an empty board than they can't play Jace reasonably.
To me NO RUG is a weird matchup. While attacking the opponent’s manabase is not always the right path, this is generally the only path I go down against this deck. I attempt to MM, swords, and unless you have to take something else thoughtseize their mana creatures/GSZ. I also wasteland them as aggressively as a possibly can without trashing my own game plan. Loam is also very strong in this matchup. An important thing to try and do is play down a couple Goyfs or a Knight as they will generally be bigger than all of their creatures and can race a Clique.
All these reasons were why I think that increasing the number of Loams and Diamonds is good in this deck. We aren't trying to be an aggroloam deck, but the Diamonds give us the necessary "extra land drop" we need to play Knights faster and be able to wasteland quickly and Loam gives us the card advantage of recurring wastelands we need.
While this was all food for though, I think all you guys should be able to see the valid points that I brought up and that the structure of the deck itself needs to change to keep up with the metagame.
I've gone down to 2 tops in almost all of the builds I now play for a few reasons. Getting 2 in your hand is pointless. I wanted another form of card advantage and choose a single Life from the Loam over the library as I though it had a much greater impact in the deck. Another aspect that influenced my decision is the library doesn't interact with dark confidant at all, so again there is no real value or syngery in the core aspects of the deck whereas LftL has tons of syngery with your lands, Mox, and more.Originally Posted by sdematt
I would disagree with this. While you may have a shuffle effect on your deck between one draw step and the next most of the time you can line up your draw for Confidant without having to invest one mana a turn to do so. Top gives you better control but it does come at a cost.
Truth. While Top is certainly a little easier to use with Bob, Sylvan Library is nearly as good, especially in the lategame. Library can also act as a 5th Bob in the earlier turns, since it can actually draw you more cards, unlike the Top. For this reason, I've been running 1x Sensei's Top, 1x Life from the Loam, and 1x Sylvan Library.
I like Life From the Loam, but it does not always do anything relevant. When you get a Wastelock online it's pretty bonkers, but otherwise it has usually been somewhat lackluster. I agree that running maybe 4x Mox Diamond and 2-3 Loams would make them a bit more consistent together, but I'm not sure I'm ready to go down that path yet. That's a lot of cards that do very little in certain scenarios, which is something I try to avoid with a deck like Junk. We need nearly everything to be a threat.
I also have found that the Dark Depths combo was less than ideal for our build. Going all in didn't feel right in Junk, when we're designed to grind out games and keep pressure until we can pull out a win, rather than exposing ourselves to a blowout. I think the ideas posted above are good innovations on the idea, but for now I think Classic Junk is my preference, fair or unfair.
Also, Glad to see this thread is alive again, hooray for September.
Not sure I follow you here? Confidant triggers in your upkeep, and doesnt actually draw you a card, it puts it in your hand,and library triggers in your draw step. There is no way for them to interact with each other.
I agree that top and confidant work the best together, I am just saying that drawing more then 1 top is really bad, so I went to 2.
Controlling what I am drawing is not an issue. The cmc is what 1.6 in most versions? Noe does the deck need a 5th confidant. If your running a stronghold you can easy recur your confidant. You already have 4 of them and a minimum of 2 tops.
I would run into games where I got wastelanded out or had key lands like the stronghold or Ith get destroyed. Now I can recur them with no issues and it has kept my deck running so smoothly.
I think he means controlling Sylvan in the draw step sets up Confidant for the following upkeep.
And yes, September brings us all back. Hooray!
-Matt
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