Okay so an interesting thing happened today while testing Modern. My opponent used the Milera/Kitchen Finks/Nantuko Husk combo to gain an arbitrarily large amount of life. The next turn I played Eye of Ugin and searched out Emrakul swung and on my extra turn searched out a second Emrakul, shuffled my library and explained to my opponent that I would now be taking infinite turns and that I would never deck because the 2x Emrakuls would continually shuffle back in. In a real event would it be considered stalling on either side if my opponent refused to scoop and I continually took infinite turns with Emrakuls and swung in while he was at 10000 life? I mean assume I won game 1 and he refuses to scoop game 2 under those conditions, to make it even more interesting say I'm at 3 life and I know he has Lightning Bolt in his deck so I can't just let him take his turn and nuke him with Emrakul until he decks, do I have to sit there and act out infinite turns for the next 45 mins. if my opponent is feeling like a troll?
big links in sigs are obnoxious -PR
Don't disrespect my dojo dude...
Sweep the leg!
Call a judge and explain to him and your opponent that you will now be taking infinite turns and that you will never deck yourself because the Emrakuls would replenish your library and that your opponent would eventually lose by library death.
Originally Posted by GoblinSettler
His opponent wouldn't be losing by 'library death,' it would be due to Emrakul dealing damage over the course of whatever arbitrary number of turns that is necessary to kill him by attacking with Emrakul. The opponent would never see another turn, and the player using Emrakul would be smashing for fifteen points of damage each turn.
The active player would never 'deck' himself due to Emrakul (number two) continually Legend-ruling out each other, tutoring and casting a second one, shuffling his graveyard back into his deck, and still getting that extra turn required to repeat the process until the necessary amount of damage is inflicted.
I just realized I contradicted my own statement. Thanks, need to take some more of those clear pills again,,
The game would be a tie unless you could remove his nantuko husk or Melira, as he could always gain enough life in response to anything you did to not die.
If for some reason his life gain combo required sorcery speed you would win. There is no such thing as gaining infinite life, doing infinite damage, or taking infinite turns; infinity is a concept, not a number, and technically when you perform an "infinite combo" of any sort you must specify the actual number of times you want to repeat it once it has been demonstrated. So if his life gain combo required sorcery speed to perform (which it doesn't in the example) you would just state that you were going to repeat your combo enough times to do more damage than he specified to have gained, and win.
I realize that he can't technically have infi life, just say arbitrarily high to the point where it would reasonably take 5 years of continuously looping Emrakul to kill him. His permanents would quickly get trashed via Emrakul, but yeah for obvious reasons he did specify that he was going to again gain arbitrary amounts of life before they were sacced.
So what you are saying is that even though my infinite loop takes place over the course of 2 turns I can still basically call it an infinite loop and call a judge and explain it and we can declare my opponent the loser even if he has 200000000 life because there would be no way he could escape?
big links in sigs are obnoxious -PR
Don't disrespect my dojo dude...
Sweep the leg!
I realize that he can't technically have infi life, just say arbitrarily high to the point where it would reasonably take 5 years of continuously looping Emrakul to kill him. His permanents would quickly get trashed via Emrakul, but yeah for obvious reasons he did specify that he was going to again gain arbitrary amounts of life before they were sacced.
So what you are saying is that even though my infinite loop takes place over the course of 2 turns I can still basically call it an infinite loop and call a judge and explain it and we can declare my opponent the loser even if he has 200000000 life because there would be no way he could escape?
big links in sigs are obnoxious -PR
Don't disrespect my dojo dude...
Sweep the leg!
Sorry, I forgot about annihilator on Emrakul for some reason. But yes you would win. It doesn't matter that your combo goes over multiple turns, your combo is effectively "infinite" turns.
This appears to be a legitimate loop; with Eye of Ugin, no part of it looks conditional. Loops can indeed span multiple turns.
Thankfully, due to annihilator, your opponent is going to lose his combo (and fast). Even if it didn't have annihilator, you could deck your opponent pretty fast if he didn't have a way to get rid of Eye/Emrakul.In a real event would it be considered stalling on either side if my opponent refused to scoop and I continually took infinite turns with Emrakuls and swung in while he was at 10000 life? I mean assume I won game 1 and he refuses to scoop game 2 under those conditions, to make it even more interesting say I'm at 3 life and I know he has Lightning Bolt in his deck so I can't just let him take his turn and nuke him with Emrakul until he decks, do I have to sit there and act out infinite turns for the next 45 mins. if my opponent is feeling like a troll?
In situations where both players control a non-mandatory loop that interact to make the game-state not advance (like if you had Deceiver/Twin instead of Emrakul), the Active Player chooses a number of times to repeat his loop, followed by the Non-Active Player. After that, the AP (and NAP) have to do something else and advance the game state. You could choose to make enough guys to attack him for X, he could choose to gain Y life, and the game state essentially didn't change.
“It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.”
-David DeLaney
How do you take out a 2nd Emrakul being it is a legendary creature? So when you cast your first Emrakul, you pay your 20 something colorless casting cost. Then on your extra turn you untap all and swing for 15. Then you search out a 2nd Emrakul and you pay your casting cost again to summon him. But won't both Emrakul's go to the graveyard? So you'll have to search and summon Emrakul again on the same turn. So you'll need like 40 mana to search and bring out Emrakul twice in 1 turn.
You get the extra turn by casting Emrakul, not by attacking with it. So on odd-numbered turns he fetches and cast an Emrakul and gets an extra turn; on even-numbered turns he attacks with the previous Emrakul, then fetches and cast another which gets him an extra turn and makes both Emrakuls shuffle back into the library.
YOU'RE GIVING ME A TIME MACHINE IN ORDER TO TREAT MY SLEEP DISORDER.
Have you ever actually played with that deck? You do realize thirty mana is pretty laughable to attain when the player running it gets things going.
That is, however, if we're talking about Legacy and not Modern; Legacy has access to Candelabra which makes a bit of a difference.
Even in modern twelve post can generate 96 mana from glimmerposts and vesuvaposts alone.
Actually on topic, even though you could win through damage could the player with the life total argue that time would be called before you could deal lethal damage and demand a draw or if they won the first game a win?
No; the Emrakul player established a loop and repeated it X times, same as the Milera established a loop to gain the life. Loops are instantaneous.
“It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.”
-David DeLaney
So let me see if I get this right.
Player A establishes a loop and gains 1,000,000 life
Player B initiates a loop to take 1,000,000 turns, which would net 7,500,000 damage and 500,000 annihilator triggers.
Responding to the loop, player A loops again to gain 100,000,000 life, but after the first emrakul attack loses their ability to loop again.
At this point, can player B say they are initiating their loop again, 100,000,000 times or some such to deal 750,000,000 damage?
tl;dr: Post player wins, correct?
Team Albany: What's Legacy?
You cannot know the sweetness of Victory, without first dwelling in the agony of Defeat.
That was answered earlier in the thread; NAP "wins" when both players have loops that combine to stalemate the gamestate.
However, the Emrakul player has to shortcut his way through making the Melira player sac all of his permanents first anyway before he can start looping; the Melira player won't have a loop by the time Emrakul gets to looping.
“It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.”
-David DeLaney
A quite simple example that taught me how to resolve such situation, imagine this creature:
War Penguin - 1U
(0): ~ gains flying until end of turn. Any player may play this ability.
(0): ~ this loses flying until end of turn. Any player may play this ability.
1/1
If you control War Penguin, you won't be able to attack with it as a flying creature since your opponent will be the non-active player and will have the last say. However, you will be able to block flying creatures with it as you're the non-active player during your opponent's turn and will therefor "win".
The seven cardinal sins of Legacy:
1. Discuss the unbanning ofLand TaxEarthcraft.
2. Argue that banning Force of Will would make the format healthier.
3. Play Brainstorm without Fetchlands.
4. Stifle Standstill.
5. Think that Gaea's Blessing will make you Solidarity-proof.
6. Pass priority after playing Infernal Tutor.
7. Fail to playtest against Nourishing Lich (coZ iT wIlL gEt U!).
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