All B/R update speculation.

[KevinTrudeau]

If Brainstorm does indeed get banned, I'm willing to bet it's strictly because WotC wanted to kill off Legacy, not because they honestly thought banning it would be good for the health of the format. Brainstorm, along with Force of Will, is the soul of Legacy; remove it, and you are left with a nasty-ass corpse, getting eaten by nasty-ass maggots and nasty-ass bugs.

Just to reiterate my position regarding the Sept. B/R updates:

Legacy: Nothing

Standard:

Ban ZEN block, M11, SOM block, M12
Unban 9th edition, RAV block, TSP block

Modern: Unban 6ED, MM block, INV block, 7ED, ODY block, ONS block

Vintage: Ignorant of the format

Extended:

Ban all currently legal sets
Unban all sets formerly legal in Extended (including Core Sets) between INV block and RAV block (I'd drop Legacy in an instant if this were to happen)

[I am the brainwasher]

@Kev.Trudeau:
Words cant even express how useful that post was... .
Just saying that BS is the somewhat "soul" of Legacy is enough to give competent statements about any B/R considerations? Wow, I am amazed. Well, I guess you cant expect too much from someone whos interest is obviously just selfish ("Vintage: Ignorant of the format").
What did you intended to acomplish with your post? All sort of narrow-minded, so called "oldSkool" players (and this comes from a guy who played MUC with a single Morphling and 2 Masticore as win cons in 2009, just sayin) agreeing with you, just because of nastolgic and grown old thoughts? Congratz to you man... .
Wish this whole discussion would become a lot more serious in general.

[Sims]

Wish this whole discussion would become a lot more serious in general.

There is no point. The discussions that happen on this site about B/R have next to no impact on actual B/R policy with the DCI. It's all pure speculation, theorycraft, and ego stroking. You want serious discussion on a B/R list? Okay, here's a serious B/R list discussion from '04.

Brain on fire..

Must... lock.. thread...

Ok. Look. I'm only going to say this once. If you have any questions or rebuttals, keep them to yourself.

Oath Sucks. Ok? It's awful. Green is an awful color. Building a control deck around it doesn't make it any better. *see "Druids, Oath of" and "Psychatog" and "Junk, PT" (ok, so junk really isn't a control deck.. well, kinda) Come to think of it, building a combo deck around that color doesn't work too well either. *see "Aluren."

Know why suicide oath was winning in extended back two seasons ago? Extended does not have the following cards: Swords to plowshares, Force of Will. Believe it or not, those cards are powerful enough to be a constant presence in any metagame with the card pool they are legal in. In fact, you may play against those very cards in the next tournament you play in. Or you may even play them yourself. I need a /sarcasm tag really badly.

If you want to play the game where I name a combo, then you name one that stops it, then I name another one.. make a different thread. However, this point counterpoint thing is fucking pointless. Benzo would be moderately playable with entomb. In fact, I would probably play it. I recieve unhealthy pleasure from reanimating fatties. However, if you check my whole existance-of-cards-that-would-slightly-affect-the-extended-metagame-if-they-were-legal arguement above, you will notice that sometimes a big ass fatty isn't that hard to deal with. Also, Tormod's crypt isn't avalable to play in extended. You know, those things you have because you didn't want to lose to Dragon (yet you did anyhow, didn't you?)

Please stop drawing conjecture from extended. It's different cardpools. Ok? We're still more like type 1 than extended. Another thing: The bannings of replenish, skullclamp, etc just because they were banned in extended. Not too bringht. They missed survival of the goddamn fittest. No worries though, it's not like anyone played those cards in old 1.5 anyhow.

This brings us full circle to Oath of Druids, and the fact that green sucks. I know an aggro deck can't handle a turn 2 fatty. Know what? That aggro deck is probably playing green. They weren't going to win anyhow.

Mind twist is a very swingy card. In the absence of good acceleration, it's not that great turn 1. However, turn 4, it empties your opponent's hand. That's pretty frickin' swingy. Of course, this depends on your matchup. I know you aren't playing mind twist in suicide. Why? Because I know you aren't playing suicide. You are a better magic player than that. So I know you didn't just compare mind twist to hymn to tourach. While hymn to tourach is actually more cost effective than a mind twist, Mind Twist happens to be infinately splashable for such a devistating effect.

Metalworker is fine. Metalworker in the current card pool is at just about the right power level for the format. After all, goblin lacky is still legal. Guess what, it's also an artifact and a creature.

I refuse to comment on the very specualtion that a "broken replenish" deck exists. I believe that to be an oxymoron. If by boken you mean "slow and disruptable" then.. nevermind.

In conclusion,

-Discussing B/R changes just make you look dumb. It makes you look like you don't know what you are talking about. I might have a thousand or more mistakes in what I have written above. I most likely do not.

- I blame people who discuss B/R changes like they are smarter than R&D for the change and seperation of the lists. You may be smarter than R&D. That's ok, so is my toaster. Just don't do it. Ok? Don't.

- Green sucks.

Important parts bolded for significance.

[CorpT]

There is no point. The discussions that happen on this site about B/R have next to no impact on actual B/R policy with the DCI. It's all pure speculation, theorycraft, and ego stroking. You want serious discussion on a B/R list? Okay, here's a serious B/R list discussion from '04.

True. I just hope Tom LaPille manages to put enough clicks together to get to a MODO practice room and lose to Mental Misstep twice. Even when he's playing Great Sable Stag. That should be enough to get Misstep banned.

[KevinTrudeau]

@Kev.Trudeau:
Words cant even express how useful that post was... .
Just saying that BS is the somewhat "soul" of Legacy is enough to give competent statements about any B/R considerations? Wow, I am amazed. Well, I guess you cant expect too much from someone whos interest is obviously just selfish ("Vintage: Ignorant of the format").
What did you intended to acomplish with your post? All sort of narrow-minded, so called "oldSkool" players (and this comes from a guy who played MUC with a single Morphling and 2 Masticore as win cons in 2009, just sayin) agreeing with you, just because of nastolgic and grown old thoughts? Congratz to you man... .
Wish this whole discussion would become a lot more serious in general.

I was being a bit facetiously myopic throughout the entirety of that last post. I thought the "nasty-ass" mantra would denote that, but I apologize for any confusion (though I am pretty much completely ignorant of all matters Vintage).

My honest thoughts and opinions:
-Brainstorm didn't suddenly become more broken these last few months; why has there been a sudden surge of proponents for the banning of a beloved, tried-and-true Legacy staple (I know, I know, subjective argumentation)?
-The format hasn't stabilized long enough to discern whether Mental Misstep is bad for the health of Legacy. Wait until December.

[Gheizen64]

So you run through the street throwing germans and blacks the "n-words" against their head and advise them to "grow up"? This post is full of arrogance and ignorance... disgusting

K, understood. I've never ever have called someone racist or n* or anything else, not even on the internet, but actually you managed to feel like i did when i was speaking about your ideas and managed to switch the blame to me. This just feel you looked for an excuse to dodge a conversation, i hope it isn't the case.

[Koby]

You can't just say Blue. There are a TON of different lists for blue with little overlap. Also nice job crossing out Bob Control. Look at the vintage top 8 from worlds. Two BOB GUSH CONTROL.

Gush is Gush is Gush.

Adding Bobs or adding Trygon Predator doesn't change the other 45 cards in the deck that are essentially a Blue control shell. You're missing the Forest for a Tree.

[3eowulf]

Gush is Gush is Gush.

Adding Bobs or adding Trygon Predator doesn't change the other 45 cards in the deck that are essentially a Blue control shell. You're missing the Forest for a Tree.

Except the fact that GAT (dryad beats), Gush Storm (Tendrils) and Menendian's Worlds Deck (TinkerBot) have a very different gameplan...

In looking at similiar decklist, it's you that are missing the difference.

[Prkchpsndwiches]

Gush is Gush is Gush.

Adding Bobs or adding Trygon Predator doesn't change the other 45 cards in the deck that are essentially a Blue control shell. You're missing the Forest for a Tree.

Not true. Rich Shay Gush Storm Control vs Paul M/Stephen M Bob/Gush Control. Totally different. Also you lumped Fish in with blue, which doesn't typically run Gush....

[Koby]

Except the fact that GAT (dryad beats), Gush Storm (Tendrils) and Menendian's Worlds Deck (TinkerBot) have a very different gameplan...

In looking at similiar decklist, it's you that are missing the difference.

OK, I'll give you that it's not 45 cards. It's merely 35 cards shared between:
GAT, Gush Control, and Gush Storm.

If I ignore the names of the "blue" fetches and just call them "fetches", that difference shrinks to 38 overlapping cards. 38/60 cards are identical, which is more than 63%.

I still maintain that the deck is essentially Gush + flavor of kill condition. One runs creatures, another runs Bobs and Missteps, and the third runs Tendrils of Agony and Library. The deck operates in the complete same mechanism with varying degrees of flavor. This isn't the difference between Goblins/Landstill/Combo - it's the difference between Sword of Fire/Ice, Feast/Famine, Light/Shadow in a UW Stoneblade deck.



So what's the point? Gush is the archetype, and varying flavors don't constitute a new deck, but rather mirror the play style of its pilot.

I'll repeat my earlier assertion - Vintage only has four archetypes - Blue, Bazaar, Workshop, and Oath*. Even Oath can be considered a blue deck, which gives the option to consider Fish a successful strategy.

[KobeBryan]

If Brainstorm does indeed get banned, I'm willing to bet it's strictly because WotC wanted to kill off Legacy, not because they honestly thought banning it would be good for the health of the format. Brainstorm, along with Force of Will, is the soul of Legacy; remove it, and you are left with a nasty-ass corpse, getting eaten by nasty-ass maggots and nasty-ass bugs.

Just to reiterate my position regarding the Sept. B/R updates:

Legacy: Nothing

Standard:

Ban ZEN block, M11, SOM block, M12
Unban 9th edition, RAV block, TSP block

Modern: Unban 6ED, MM block, INV block, 7ED, ODY block, ONS block

Vintage: Ignorant of the format

Extended:

Ban all currently legal sets
Unban all sets formerly legal in Extended (including Core Sets) between INV block and RAV block (I'd drop Legacy in an instant if this were to happen)

How can you unban 9th ed, rav, and tsp block in standard?

[3eowulf]

OK, I'll give you that it's not 45 cards. It's merely 35 cards shared between:
GAT, Gush Control, and Gush Storm.

If I ignore the names of the "blue" fetches and just call them "fetches", that difference shrinks to 38 overlapping cards. 38/60 cards are identical, which is more than 63%.

I still maintain that the deck is essentially Gush + flavor of kill condition. One runs creatures, another runs Bobs and Missteps, and the third runs Tendrils of Agony and Library. The deck operates in the complete same mechanism with varying degrees of flavor. This isn't the difference between Goblins/Landstill/Combo - it's the difference between Sword of Fire/Ice, Feast/Famine, Light/Shadow in a UW Stoneblade deck.

So what's the point? Gush is the archetype, and varying flavors don't constitute a new deck, but rather mirror the play style of its pilot.

I'll repeat my earlier assertion - Vintage only has four archetypes - Blue, Bazaar, Workshop, and Oath*. Even Oath can be considered a blue deck, which gives the option to consider Fish a successful strategy.

Since you don't understand my point about the strategic plan of those decks and continue to pretend Gush+cards=Blue deck=1 archetype of four, could you please tell me what are these top2 decks?

They are neither Bazaar, Workshop or Oath decks, and they definitely aren't playing Gush, so they can't be a specific flavor of a "blue deck". Are you saying that those are two rogue decks, or there's a flaw in your reasoning?

[Richard Cheese]

Since you don't understand my point about the strategic plan of those decks and continue to pretend Gush+cards=Blue deck=1 archetype of four, could you please tell me what are these top2 decks?

They are neither Bazaar, Workshop or Oath decks, and they definitely aren't playing Gush, so they can't be a specific flavor of a "blue deck". Are you saying that those are two rogue decks, or there's a flaw in your reasoning?

Still just Vintage Blue shell.

1 of every restricted card
Force of Will
Mana Drain
Win Condition

That is basically the shell for every Vintage deck that isn't Dredge or MUD right?

[Prkchpsndwiches]

Still just Vintage Blue shell.

1 of every restricted card
Force of Will
Mana Drain
Win Condition

That is basically the shell for every Vintage deck that isn't Dredge or MUD right?

Again........ Fish.

[keys]

Still just Vintage Blue shell.

1 of every restricted card
Force of Will
Mana Drain
Win Condition

That is basically the shell for every Vintage deck that isn't Dredge or MUD right?

This is a pretty undeveloped view of the metagame.

FYI:

1. Good Vintage decks do not just play 1 of every restricted card. There is a lot of nuanced decision making that goes into whether cards like Gifts, Crypt, or LoA make the cut.

2. Ok

3. Drain isn't played in a lot of blue control lists, and the correct number is never obvious in those that do.

4. Choice of win condition has a big influence on the deck. Oath of Druids is pretty different from Tinker is pretty different from Quirion Dryad is pretty different from Grindstone. All of these are blue archtypes but do not look or play the same.

[DragoFireheart]

Ban Mental Misstep? Oh look, Storm Combo is going to come back, then CounterTop, then we have the same shit we had 4 months ago before MMS got printed.

Frankly I hope they leave it alone. With Hivemind being able to shit on CounterTop, Storm being able to shit on non-Counter non-Merfolk, and Dredge being able to shit on everything else, expect to see a combo format.

Or better yet: ban mental misstep, and then ban Aether Vial so control decks have a shot at playing.

[ESG]

True. I just hope Tom LaPille manages to put enough clicks together to get to a MODO practice room and lose to Mental Misstep twice. Even when he's playing Great Sable Stag. That should be enough to get Misstep banned.

Actually, you'll find this interesting: I was at a 71-person unsactioned Legacy event last weekend for a Lotus, and Tom was playing in it. He was running UW Stoneforge, so he had Mental Missteps. I saw no Great Sable Stags.

[crovakiet]

Actually, you'll find this interesting: I was at a 71-person unsactioned Legacy event last weekend for a Lotus, and Tom was playing in it. He was running UW Stoneforge, so he had Mental Missteps. I saw no Great Sable Stags.

Sounds interesting, especially if it had Tom playing UW Mystic for the lulz. Is there a report anywhere for this tournament showing top 8 results and/or match summaries?

[Solaran_X]

Still just Vintage Blue shell.

1 of every restricted card
Force of Will
Mana Drain
Win Condition

That is basically the shell for every Vintage deck that isn't Dredge or MUD right?

1. There are 44 Restricted cards in Vintage.
2. Add 4 Force of Will. 48 cards now.
3. Add 4 Mana Drains. 52 cards now.
4. Add win condition. Let's say Blightsteel, since Tinker is counted as a Restricted card. And let's include Voltaic Key, since Time Vault is also restricted. 54 cards now.

Where is your mana base? Or are you supposed to play this deck with 2 lands, a Lotus, five Moxes, a Mana Crypt, a Mana Vault, and a Sol Ring?

You, sir, know NOTHING about Vintage. My deck runs 19 of the 44 Restricted cards (invalidates your first point), does run Force of Will, doesn't run Mana Drains (invalidates your third point), does have a win condition. And it's the same as the list that took 4th at Vintage Worlds in GenCon - so it's not some bad jank deck. It's a finely tuned Bob Gush Control list.

What you listed isn't the shell for anything but a very, very bad EDH deck (and illegal, with 4x Force and 4x Drain).

[TeenieBopper]

Wow. The three people who actually give a shit about such a shitty format are all here on a site that has nothing to do with said shitty format (just a different shitty format).