TomiF- I havent played The Gate for awhile now but it is still one of my favorite decks and I always haunt this thread.
Anyway Re: Hivemind combo and your SB in general, I would suggest some combination of 3 surgical extraction/extirpate to start and then a playset of either sundial of the infinite or possibly even lich's mirror.
I know both are extremely narrow and sundial is probably the better (although more narrow) of the two but humor me for a sec. The upside to these is both are essentially free to cast and uncounterable answers to hivemind when they SNT so they are every bit as fast as the HM players combo and both are reusable. They also both allow you to still completely tap out in your turn since the HM player will be casting SNT during his turn.
The mirror can even win games against aggro decks like zoo if they are depleted when they reset you. I was actually surprised by how effective it can be. I have not tested very extensively with the mirror though so this is mainly theoryhammer here but in the absence of really any other options I would look to these two if you expect to encounter HM in force as splashing colors is not an option.
The downside to lich's mirror of course is that you start at ground zero again so if the HM player does have multiple pacts they can just use 1 to reset you and follow up with the second pact to kill you next turn. This though requires them to have a 4 card combo which isnt always that likely, especially with the amount of disruption The Gate maindecks.
There really isnt a good answer to leyline for The Gate that I am aware of but at least these two options would allow you time to get Dystopia online to remove it.
Lastly you could consider phyrexian metamorph for the SB too if you are really that worried about leyline since it does answer emrakul/progenitus without targeting. Personally though I would take the above suggestions and take my chances with leyline.
Anyway hope I gave you a few ideas. Cheers.
Edit: I actually just thought of another option that could possibly work out, maybe with some form of acceleration i.e. rits or mox...trinisphere
In fact I wonder if this could find a place MD in The Gate since many of this decks spells already cost 3-4? It obviously wrecks countermagic and any type of tempo oriented deck. GftT players could opt to run Dismember and/or Snuff Out instead and Cabal therapy would remain uneffected lategame due to its alternate casting cost. Vial effects would still function but The Gate has plenty of answers to creature based strategys.
Sadistic Sacrament I have tested and I have found it to do too little too slow. It removes 3 cards from their library which is often too little because it does nothing to their hand or their board and it costing 3 gives opponent time to find it's needed piece to their hand. I'd think Extirpate would be better here. And speaking of that, extirpate-effects usually isn't needed because against most decks discarding their worst threat from their hand is enough to stall them.
Vampire Hexmage I may consider if planeswalkers become a big problem and I don't feel they deserve sideboard slots right now.
Phyrexian Crusader is a good card, but yet again I don't see aggro matchups to be too bad when I have already Dystopia in my side.
Sundias of the Infinite is narrow as hell, but it seems to be only reasonable answer to Hive Mind. Lich's Mirror is as narrow as Sundial and dead against multiple pacts and it pretty much is uncastable without acceleration.
The reason why I'd like to get an answer to leyline is, that without it I have found my disruption to be usually enough, if I know I'm facing hive mind and know what hand to keep and what not.
I'm not really afraid of Emrakul or Progenitus because I have plenty of answers to them. It is the leyline that screws my disruption and half of my answers to big monsters.
I'm not going to use acceleration that is card disadvantage. Card advantage from lots of cards I'm playing win games. So Trinisphere would land too late with my list.
How is Dark Ritual in this deck? I would also like to see some current decklist for this deck
Koga Clan forever, the best legacy team in L.A.
Its stated in the primer and all over this topic that it makes this deck incosistent. Some have had luck with it. For recent lists I would check tcdecks.Originally Posted by dethangel666
there are 2 different list i have found, the more traditional ones with abyssal persecutor, and the lists running dark ritual an phyrexian obliterator in persecutors slot
Is there a newer primer then one on first page?
I'm having a very difficult time with storm combo.
I have 3 nulls in the board, 3 extirpates. I have two open slots in the SB. I can use inquisition or I can improve my matchup with zoo by adding phyrexian crusader.
I run the abyassal version, so i have 3 cabal therapies, 2 MD phyrexian revoker, 4 hymns, 4 duress.
They always manage to go off on me.
what would you do.
Honestly, I'd just accept the fact that Storm combo is usually going to beat this strategy. Tune to beat Zoo, Merfolk, and other Control/Aggro/control decks-- and hope you don't run into a good storm player.
Playing a discard deck in a Dredge heavy meta seems like an odd choice to me. You must really like mono black alot to choose it in that meta. Hope your board can win games two and three for you.
When other people do not assert themselves, they may still have something to be proud of, something that they believe is unrivalled, but it is just that they have not got the same vulgarity of throwing their weight about and imposing themselves and their beliefs on other people. - Dunduzu Kalui Chisiza
If you think a topic is dumb, don't add to it. Pretty simple. - Bardo
Against storm combo: mindbreak trap or Shadow of Doubt (dragonstorm).
Here's the list I'm running:
21x Swamp
4x Dark Confidant
4x Vampire Nighthawk
4x Gatekeeper of Malakir
4x Phyrexian Obliterator
3x Duress
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Mental Misstep
3x Disfigure
2x Dismember
3x Bitterblossom
2x Jitte
SB:
4x Relic of Progenitus
3x Perish
3x Extirpate
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
1x Duress
1x Bitterblossom
1x Jitte
I've played this a few times in the last few weeks and here's how I did:
3-0-1
3-0-0
2-1-2
1-0-3
2-0-1
Beating:
Merfolk
Infect (2 times)
GW Maverick
12 Post Eldrazi
BUR Team America
BUW Stifle/Mask Dreadnaught
Reanimator
Artifact/Junk
Death and Taxes
UB Painter Stone
Tieing:
UW Stoneblade
Losing to:
UW Stoneblade (3 times)
BGR Zoo
GW Maverick
Deadguy Ale
Aggro Loam
Sooo as you can see Stoneblade is a terrible match up and I'm not sure what/how to SB best against them. I had games where I Extripated my opponent's Stoneforge and tore apart their hand with Tourach and they still won =(
Also I don't know if I'm fully satisfied with the Disfigure/Dismember package. Disfigure is nice but I want a better 1cc removal spell. I could put more Dismembers in but the life loss is an issue given how much else of it is in the deck.
Well its a black deck so you can actually with black mana :P
Yeah but I want 1cc removal for turn 1/2 drops and if I use Dismember for that I'm down 4.
Maybe the deck could handle 4 Dismembers but I'm not sure.
If you're looking for 1cc removal for small, early threats, how about Vendetta?
Vendetta is an interesting idea I hadn't considered however it doesn't hit black which is an issue (Dark Confidant has been a prime target for Disfigure), and the lifeloss makes it somewhat unappealing. Whereas Vendetta is good turn 1 or 2 at killing small creatures, it becomes worse and worse as larger creatures come out (similar to Disfigure but Vendetta can actually kill them, just at a high price) whereas Dismember is the opposite, being somewhat weak in the first few turns but getting better as the game goes on. I feel that by running Mental Misstep now, I might be able to shift my removal towards more late game and may just opt for more Dismembers. More testing will need to be done.
Anyways I made top 8 at the Grand Prix Montreal Legacy side event with the deck list I posted. I'll try to recall the rounds.
Round 1 vs. NO RUG
Game 1: I keep him at bay and land a Nighthawk, Bitterblossom and Jitte but he rips a NO and I can't race the Progenitus
Game 2: I Dismember his first turn Dryad Arbor and Hymn away one of the only other lands in his hand and while he's mana screwed drop an Obliteratior and beat face
Game 3: This was a tense match, I get lots of removal and discard some of which he counters but I Hymn away a NO a turn before he could play it and am relieved. Sadly he then drops Sylvan Library followed by Jace and with only a lonely Nighthawk think I'm pretty much screwed. To my surprise he can't seem to top deck a NO or any big threats which leads to a long stalling time with Jace and Fire/Ice until he finally finds it and sends out Progentius. I then promptly wiped the board with Perish and am able to finish him off.
Round 2 vs. Dredge
Game 1: I Duress away and kill his discard outlets while slowly beating him down with Gatekeeper and Bitterblossom tokens. He gets 2 Bridges and an Ichorid in his yard along with Dread Return and Angel of Despair so I Disfigure my own Gatekeeper after he brings back Ichorid to remove the bridges and win on the back of Faeries
Game 2: Turn 2 Confidant and a slow start for him puts me in a good position. I Extirpate his Bridges and Dismember his Imp so he dumps his hand after which I drop a Relic and remove his graveyard leaving him pretty much empty and win soon after.
Round 3 vs. BANT Aggro
Game 1: I lose to 2 very large Knight of the Relinquary and Jitte
Game 2: I won this but in all honesty I can't remember what happened at all
Game 3: He mulls to 5 and I keep a hand of mostly lands and 2 Perishes and a Gatekeeper. He's stuck at 1 plains for a bunch of turns but all I draw is more land, Disfigure and another Gatekeeper. Being greedy I hold onto the Gatekeepers praying for other creatures and we draw go for a bit until I cave and drop one to start the beats. Eventually he top decks a land and begins playing creatures while all I have is more land and more removal. So for the next bunch of turns I beat him down with 2 Gatekeepers while killing every creature he plays and discarding his hand. At 6 life he STP one of my Gatekeepers leaving him at 4 with no cards in hand and me with a single Gatekeeper in play and mostly land in my hand. Next turn he top decks a land, I top a Mental Misstep. The turn before I would kill him he rips a Ponder which I Misstep and with that sealing the game, he shows me what he would have Pondered which was something like Stoneforge/Knight/Rhox..... whew!
Rounds 4 & 5 were intentional draws into Top 8, to which I then lost to Flashless Hulk (you can go to that thread and read Xantid Swarm's account of the match) and won a measly $15.
However this gave me enough time to ditch out and make it to the concert I wanted to go to that night on time so in the end it wasn't so bad.
DoomPenguin: How will your decklist be now without Mental Misstep?
In testing with some friends, I noticed that I'm not really fond of running 4 of the beatstick of choice.
I'd change my build to something like this:
17 Swamp
4 Wasteland
4 Dark Confidant
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Gatekeeper Of Malakir
3 Abyssal Persecutor
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn To Tourach
3 Bitterblossom
3 Go For The Throat
2 Dismember
3 Innocent Blood
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword Of Fire And Ice
As of now, my sideboard consists of my 4th Bitterblossom........the rest I make as I go along.
@Doompenguin: I was Norman's Gate playing friend. Sorry that you couldn't go further than just round 1 of top 8.
I will test this build in a tournament on saturday:
Not sure if I should take something out for +3 or 4 Yixlid Jailer against Dredge? Perhaps -2 Pithing Needle, +2 Yixlid Jailer. Anyone with more experience than me with this deck who can give some input on my sb?
Don't you fear to lose too much life with phyrexian mana when you play 6 Dismember?
Also, it's better to play some lands in everything that is not Belcher.
Thank you, I'm obviosly too tired and my mind is concentrated on work. Had the decklist in my head and not on paper: 3 Dismember is supposed to be 3 Bitterblossom and 20 Swamps need to be added...
Ps. Belcher should play 1 land :)
Well black phyrexian mana isnt really a problem when you are playing it in a black deck :P
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