The September 20th 2011 Banned / Restricted List Update Reaction Thread

[Zilla]

Mental Misstep needed to be banned. Here's why:

It was by far the best card in the format. We all knew it the moment we saw New Phyrexia spoiled.

This is just false. If you were to ask veteran Legacy players what the objectively strongest card in the format was before Misstep's ban, I promise you the majority wouldn't give Misstep as their answer. Misstep was a very very strong card, but objectively speaking, it's pretty widely agreed that Brainstorm is the strongest card in the format. Even more so without Misstep in the picture to stop it.

Is an environment with ~5 playable decks more skill rewarding than a diverse field of (semi)competitive decks, where there's always the fear of losing to Randomness.dec? I sure don't think so. Innovation and homebrewed decks have always been the thing that made Legacy a unique format. Playing legacy is not only about playing perfectly in matchups you've tested a billion times, if I wanted that I could just play standard. It is also deckbuilding skills, developing new strategies against unknown archetypes and also a lot of metagaming.

I agree that homebrewed innovative decks are one of the defining traits of Legacy. But here's the deal: the more predictable the metagame, the more successfully you can build a homebrewed innovative deck that exploits weaknesses in that metagame. With a totally wide open field, it's pretty much dumb luck if you do well with your homebrewed deck.

In that sense, a highly stable, predictable metagame is actually very good for homebrewers and innovators. It also rewards skill much more highly in that regard.

[CorpT]

You realize that they make magic sets a year in advance right? If they had actually predicted that Misstep + Snapcaster Mage would be as good as most of us think, they wouldn't have printed one of them (most likely Misstep). Snapcaster Mage was already at the press by the time Misstep's foothold on legacy was apparent.

They didn't even see Deceiver Exarch + Splinter Twin despite Pestermite + Kiki-Jiki and Pestermite + Splinter Twin existing years before DE + ST. There's no way they thought about Mental Misstep + Snapcaster.

[Draener]

This is just false. If you were to ask veteran Legacy players what the objectively strongest card in the format was before Misstep's ban, I promise you the majority wouldn't give Misstep as their answer. Misstep was a very very strong card, but objectively speaking, it's pretty widely agreed that Brainstorm is the strongest card in the format. Even more so without Misstep in the picture to stop it.



I agree that homebrewed innovative decks are one of the defining traits of Legacy. But here's the deal: the more predictable the metagame, the more successfully you can build a homebrewed innovative deck that exploits weaknesses in that metagame. With a totally wide open field, it's pretty much dumb luck if you do well with your homebrewed deck.

In that sense, a highly stable, predictable metagame is actually very good for homebrewers and innovators. It also rewards skill much more highly in that regard.

Thank you Zilla, for putting what I wanted to say into such eloquent words. You can't realistically build a new *interactive* deck without a good idea what you will face. The greater the consistency of the decks you will face, the more you will be rewarded for finding the weakness of these strategies and exploiting them.

[Admiral_Arzar]

You know who thinks it's sweet to play against 8 different decks in an 8 round tournament? People who don't like to win, or people that play combo. This is not EDH, Legacy is a competitive environment, and it should reward skill more-so than it does.

I'm pretty sure always knowing what you'll play against rewards people with too much time on their hands to playtest, not skill. Not knowing what you'll play against - and still managing to win - is what separates the men from the boys in this format. If you want a perfectly sculpted meta where you can play against the same four or five decks every round, standard is always available.

I am 100% positive u are one of those people I would talk mad shit 2 if I sat across from them in a tournament. But what exactly defines "normal" game? Playing in a format where you consistently see Stoneforge mirrors that go 2 time and drag tournaments out? Games that take 20 mins each to finish? Go play standard if you want that. Legacy is a fast format, if you can't handle Zoo and combo ... play something else. What this argument seems like to me is "my StoneforgeBullshit.deck is no longer at the top of the pole and no longer has a shot at beating most everything I'm paired against." Awesome ... welcome to how Legacy should be.

I think I love you.

[joemauer]

I for one like playing against eight different decks rather than one or two in a tournament, but maybe that is why I like Legacy.

Home-brewed decks were great during the MM period, if you played MM or skipped one mana costing spells when making a deck.

[Draener]

While it's true that such a format would substantially reward playtesting, the reason it does so is because if you play test a lot, you will be more likely to make the statistically correct play. Making less mistakes is what I consider skill based.

Also when you play against a wide variety of decks with drastically different strategies, there is a much greater likelyhood that you will play a deck that is 70-30 in their favor or yours. This means that you could play a baboon and still lose, which is what I believe diminishes the returns from 'skill' based play.

This effect is of course lessened if you play a combo deck, or (to a lesser extent) a deck with force of will because there is a greater likely-hood you can play around only a small number of cards that are likely to affect you (thus reducing to what your exactly playing against to 6-8 cards regardless of the deck).

[paK0]

I am 100% positive u are one of those people I would talk mad shit 2 if I sat across from them in a tournament. But what exactly defines "normal" game? Playing in a format where you consistently see Stoneforge mirrors that go 2 time and drag tournaments out? Games that take 20 mins each to finish? Go play standard if you want that. Legacy is a fast format, if you can't handle Zoo and combo ... play something else. What this argument seems like to me is "my StoneforgeBullshit.deck is no longer at the top of the pole and no longer has a shot at beating most everything I'm paired against." Awesome ... welcome to how Legacy should be.

I'm just a guy that likes it if games last past turn three.

Just because Legacy was this for the past years does not mean it was the best possible state.

I played before MMS and during and I will play after, but just because I don't like to masturbate on Tendrils like you do does not mean I have a wrong opinion.

[CorpT]

I'm just a guy that likes it if games last past turn three.

Just because Legacy was this for the past years does not mean it was the best possible state.

I played before MMS and during and I will play after, but just because I don't like to masturbate on Tendrils like you do does not mean I have a wrong opinion.

But Merfolk and Zoo are decks any moron can use, right?

Let me recap your thoughts:

Combo: For people who like to masturbate on Tendrils
Merfolk/Zoo: For morons who like to dump their hand on turn 3
Control: For sophisticated gentlemen who enjoy a skill based game to determine who triumphs

Did I get that right? I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that you like to play control.

[AngryTroll]

Combo: For people who like to play with themselves
Merfolk/Zoo: For morons who like to dump their hand on turn 3
Control: For sophisticated gentlemen who enjoy a skill based game to determine who triumphs

(combo edited to include non-Tendrils combo like High Tide, Dredge, Four Horsemen, etc)

That just about sums it up, yes.

No offense to Combo, Merfolk, and Zoo players, but I enjoy long, drawn out games with lots of incremental advantages culminating in a win or a loss. Creatures? Bah, the stack is where the action happens.

[Draener]

I think that it is much less reasonable to play an aggro deck now that mental misstep is banned (or at least non FOW aggro). I find decks with a lot of extreme variance in win % to be a lot less skill based, which is not to say that they are easy to play. They might take a lot of skill to get to the point where you can competently play a storm deck, but once you can you can pretty much free win dumb dork.dec, which is always a significant part of the metagame.

I actually play all three of the arch-types for reference but favor control and aggro.

[DragoFireheart]

(combo edited to include non-Tendrils combo like High Tide, Dredge, Four Horsemen, etc)

That just about sums it up, yes.

No offense to Combo, Merfolk, and Zoo players, but I enjoy long, drawn out games with lots of incremental advantages culminating in a win or a loss. Creatures? Bah, the stack is where the action happens.

- Same. Combo is too fast while aggro is too simple. I also find control to be the most fun deck style to play. It's interactive and makes for a long, enjoyable game. It's why I like decks like CounterTop and Landstill.

@ CorpT: Why are you so hostile to control players/decks?

[joemauer]

I believe playing against eight different decks versus one or two does not require more or less skill, just different skills.

Also, I think playing with and against combo decks like ANT and high tide takes a heck of a lot more skill than playing with and against combo decks like show and tell and natural order.

[DragoFireheart]

Also, I think playing with and against combo decks like ANT and high tide takes a heck of a lot more skill than playing with and against combo decks like show and tell and natural order.

- I absolutely agree with you. Storm decks take a hell of a lot of skill to play.

[IsThisACatInAHat?]

You know who thinks it's sweet to play against 8 different decks in an 8 round tournament? People who don't like to win, or people that play combo. This is not EDH, Legacy is a competitive environment, and it should reward skill more-so than it does.

Just want to bring this comment back around for an encore because it was so fucking good. Misstep rewarded good players for being good and punished bad players for being bad, if only because it meant that you couldn't bring something like Goblins or 12post and expect to roll a field of decks that were all looking the other way. Misstep's ban is least fair to those who deserve to win most and that really sucks for Legacy's legitimacy as a serious format.

[Admiral_Arzar]

I'm just a guy that likes it if games last past turn three.

Just because Legacy was this for the past years does not mean it was the best possible state.

I played before MMS and during and I will play after, but just because I don't like to masturbate on Tendrils like you do does not mean I have a wrong opinion.

There are formats specifically designed for players like you. Hint: they aren't eternal formats. I would rather Legacy not be shaped into a clone of modern and standard, where there is a rule about how fast decks can win, and any deck breaking that rule gets banned.

EDIT: I like to masturbate with tendrils.

Just want to bring this comment back around for an encore because it was so fucking good. Misstep rewarded good players for being good and punished bad players for being bad, if only because it meant that you couldn't bring something like Goblins or 12post and expect to roll a field of decks that were all looking the other way. Misstep's ban is least fair to those who deserve to win most and that really sucks for Legacy's legitimacy as a serious format.

His comment was "fucking good," but only because it was so retarded and bass-ackwards that I laughed out loud in my cubicle at work, and then started showing it to friends so they could laugh. Saying that you "deserve to win more" because you play blue just makes this entire load of QQing more lulzy. The "good players play control" stereotype is hilarious, and seeing it perpetuated here just makes me lol. Apparently, blue has to be dominant for a format to be legitimate. God forbid that there be a nonblue DTB. Of course, you might be being sarcastic. If so, my hat is off to you *gasp, pun intended*.

[joemauer]

I'm just a guy that likes it if games last past turn three.

You may like standard.

[CorpT]

@ CorpT: Why are you so hostile to control players/decks?

I don't dislike control players/decks. I dislike pompous douche bags who think that Misstep your Nacatl, Standstill requires skill. Or SFM, Misstep your bolt, Batterskull is skill. Unfortunately, the overlap between control players and pompous douche bags who think that Zoo is for morons and Misstep your Bolt is skill is pretty thick. See this thread. You might find a couple examples.

[DragoFireheart]

I don't dislike control players/decks. I dislike pompous douche bags who think that Misstep your Nacatl, Standstill requires skill. Or SFM, Misstep your bolt, Batterskull is skill. Unfortunately, the overlap between control players and pompous douche bags who think that Zoo is for morons and Misstep your Bolt is skill is pretty thick. See this thread. You might find a couple examples.

- I don't think I'm seeing that. Zoo might be more simple but I don't think (myself at least) it's implied it's for morons.

[DragoFireheart]

You may like standard.

- Why must Legacy be a game of less than 4 turns?

[Admiral_Arzar]

- Why must Legacy be a game of less than 4 turns?

Nobody said it must be. I'm fine with all archetypes coexisting in Legacy, and games of whatever length between them. There are a lot of haters on here whining about games lasting LESS than four turns, however.

I don't dislike control players/decks. I dislike pompous douche bags who think that Misstep your Nacatl, Standstill requires skill. Or SFM, Misstep your bolt, Batterskull is skill. Unfortunately, the overlap between control players and pompous douche bags who think that Zoo is for morons and Misstep your Bolt is skill is pretty thick. See this thread. You might find a couple examples.

God this post is amazing. I used to be that pompous d-bag, too :(.