Can't have it all i guess.
I'd rather kill Vendillion Clique, Noble Hierarch, Birds,
Mother of Runes or Bob without paying mana for it.
Cards that come to mind for dealing with the SFM/Batterskull Problem:
Warren Weirding
Tin-Street Hooligan
Gempalm Incinerator
Krosan Grip
Multiple Gutshots(lolz)
True strength lies in action. Let the weak react to me! -Kamahl, Pit Fighter
I agree that a burn spell is superior to Fanatic. SFM is certainly viable in the new meta; many versions didn't even run MM to begin with. If they need 5 mana at sorcery speed to cast Batterskull, we can reliably keep them off it long enough to win. If they can instant play a Batterskull on 3 mana, it's harder to pull through. Now granted, we could just rely on post board artifact hate, but I want a good game 1 as well if I can do it through a versatile card.
I think the question is Bolt vs. Tarfire. Now, about a year about, everyone said that Tarfire was not viable, and many played Bolt. Why? I contend the answer is Zoo. Recently, with Zoo out of the picture b/c of MM, everyone went to Tarfire since Nacatl wasn't a concern. However, in the new meta, Zoo is back in play and sure to be a popular deck, if for no other reason than people who own it will be wanting to play their one drops again.
Bolt may be the way to go. I am going to test the following flex slot configuration:
4 Bolt
2 Warren Wierding
3 Gempalm
2 MWM
1 Hooligan
The idea is to have a toolbox of removal. MWM is a concession to my feeling that aggro will make a resurgence, and to help fuel Gempalm for more consistent removal.
What I like about Bolt is that it also gives you a reasonable chance at shooting down an early Tarmo or Knight, which is something that Tarfire will almost never do. It deals with Nacatl, which I predict will make a comeback. Like Tarfire, it gives you the outs to Heirarch, SFM, Bob, and Mother.
The only real drawback to Bolt is that you can't draw them off your Ringleaders. I need to test this more, but my feeling is that by the time you are hitting Ringleaders, you don't really need the burn to win. You can power through with Gempalms, WW, and just plain brute force (ie, throw more goblins at the problem). My initial feeling is that I'd rather have the superior answer on turns 1-4 to as many problem creatures as I can than something that fuels late game card advantage. Hence, my hypothesis is that Bolt > Tarfire > Fanatic.
I have 30 goblins in the deck, so if I get Ringleaders up and running, I should still average 2 cards per reveal.
Proposed Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Thorn
3 Perish
3 Ancient Grudge
1 Sharpshooter
Perish over Pyro because my main deck removal handles things that Pyro would handle. I want outs to giant Knights, Progenitus, and late game Goyfs. Sharpshooter also helps in matchups that Pyro would come in for.
Thoughts welcome.
1Dropp zoo was pretty damn good in the mm metagame, if it wouldnt then it wouldnt be a deck to beat right? Zoo never fell of the scene.
Seen a couple of goblin decks running tuk-tuk Scrapers as their artifact hating Goblin. Thought Tin Street Hooligan is alot faster but works less of vials and lackey / instigator.
I've been playing the deck for a while and pre-MM I used to run a playset of bolts since I don't feel four Incinerators is enough removal for my meta. Tarfires are nice since you can hit them with Ringleader, but I think I will go back to bolts because of the 'Goyf factor. It also adds a tad more reach.
Unlike what various people (who propably haven't played the deck much if at all) claim in articles, I've found that hitting just one goblin off of Ringleader is usually enough. Even scrying four lands/vial(s) to the bottom of your deck is not terrible late game.
I also have picked up a Tarfire with Matron, cause I didn't have the mana left to play an Incinerator. I'm not sure about Bolt>Tarfire in goblins.Originally Posted by Serva
Still I think since everyone takes out Pyrokinesis from SB with the argument of spot removal MD, why don't we play Kinesis MD instead of Bolts? They are both not tutorable and are prior for removing creatures, than hitting faces. So my list would look like this:
2 Bolts
2 Kinesis
2 Tarfire
1 Warren Weirding
3 Incinerator
1 Stingscourger
1 Sharpshooter
1 TSH
(-1 SGC in Core)
Gobbos: Kings of flavortext!
Well here's my list with a white splash
Maindeck - Stalling Marshall with White Splash
4 vials
4 Lackeys
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Mogg War Marshall
4 Piledrivers
4 Gempalms
4 Matrons
4 Warchiefs
4 Ringleaders
3 Siege Gangs
22 Land
4 wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Plateau
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Mountains
Sideboard
1 Sharpshooter
1 Stingscourger ( v Emrikul )
3 Retribution of the Meek ( v Progenitus )
4 Disenchant ( v equipment, Moat,E.plague etc )
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Chalice of the Void ( Replaced 3 REB now MM banned and I fear Combo )
OK I've 3 siege gangs, but I find it hard to drop to 2 as I hope for Lackey > Siege Gang starts, followed up by Piledrivers. Failing that I look for synergy from MWM to pump piledrivers, and then matron ringleader to overwhelm with goblins mid game. Of course I use a full set of Ports and wastelands as a central part of the strategy.
I know many fellow warchiefs discard the white splash, but at the start of this new thread even Gobbolord himself questioned if it should be looked at more closely.
The SB is meant to try and cover all eventualities in an unknown meta. The 4th Disenchant is just personal preference as I hate scooping to Moat.
Lightning Bolt seems better but the fact that I can't search for it keeps me away from playing it. Tarfire might not be at it's best against Zoo but it's advantages against other decks make up for that. Against zoo I wouldn't rely so heavily on Gempalm Incinerator in game one since more often then not you won't have enough goblins to deal with their creatures.
Stingscourger does a better job against the critters that matter (Tarmogoyf and Knight of the Reliquary); most of the time I would play it over edict effects since it targets (bouncing Emrakul with their own Show and Tell is sweet).
Gut Shot feels to narrow at this point. Free spells are the rage but it still doesn't reliably kill Stoneforge Mystic, whereas Tarfire kills it and all the one drops mentioned in favor of Gut Shot plus it's tutorable.
I want to ask you something: I've been playing gobbos for years, even with the MM's rise, i didn't quit the deck.
And by testing the deck, I'm really confused about rishadan and wastelnd main purposes. I've been playing with out wastelands, just 3 rishadan and I can say that I don't miss wastes. I think that I will cut port too.
I prefer to improove matrons targets and just play Aggro with 3 lords effects and 6 haste effects and incresaing the chances in revealing more goobos with ringleader.
My list is:
// Lands
5 [M11] Mountain (3)
3 [MM] Rishadan Port
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
2 [R] Badlands
2 [R] Taiga
// Creatures
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
1 [LRW] Wort, Boggart Auntie
4 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
1 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
2 [M11] Goblin Chieftain
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [US] Goblin Matron
1 [10E] Goblin King
2 [GP] Tin Street Hooligan
1 [PLC] Stingscourger
// Spells
3 [MOR] Warren Weirding
4 [DS] AEther Vial
Any thoughts?
Battle doesn't need a purpose; the battle is its own purpose. You don't ask why a plague spreads or a field burns. Don't ask why I fight.
Black Knight
I played Bolt with success because 3 toughness guys were more present back in the days (And Bolt was way better in the Vengevine era, killing the namesake creature, Rootwalla, and Mongrael usually). Now, if goyfless-Maverick continue to perform well (at least over here) Tarfire seems better, increasing the consistency of the deck, while dealing with their problematic creatures.
Super Bizarros Team. Beating everything with small green dudes and big waves.
I'm not sure what your meta looks like, but I would never cut Wasteland. I've won a fair number of games simply by keeping my opponent off of 3 mana. Wasteland is also invaluable against Mutavault during a grinding Fish match, punishes newer players for sketchy hand keeps and eats greedy mana bases for breakfast. I've even blown out a doomsday player with a mised waste on his Shelldock Isle. The look on his face was priceless.
Port, on the other hand, is hit and miss. When it's good, it's good. When it isn't, I'm always wishing it was a mountain. I run 3 in my main due to availability, but I have yet to find myself wanting a 4th.
Ok, I got your point. Wasteland is a great card and can win a game by destroyng a non-basic land, I got it.
But the next time that you play goblins thnks if the wasteland woulnbt be better a goblin/mountain. Cause I just feel that is better to cast a creature, since our mana curve has a lot of 3cmc cards and I win more games tutoring some goblin then crackling wasteland.
I just don't see wasteland in the strategy of this deck. I just prefer ti play aggro, and hooligans, lords and matrons helped me a lot....
Battle doesn't need a purpose; the battle is its own purpose. You don't ask why a plague spreads or a field burns. Don't ask why I fight.
Black Knight
With AEther Vial you can do both. While you are useing Wasteland and Rishadan Port to do a number on their mana base, Vial is ticking away and dropping goblins into play free of charge at instant speed and through counters.
One could say it's simmilar to the way suicide decks operated a few years back, with a significant difference. While those decks had to chose weather to apply pressure or disruption Goblins don't have to make that kind of a sacrifice because they can do both simultaneously.
Wasteland is an all star player in this deck. Arguing against its supreme level of usefulness is ridiculous.
Hello guys, a recently bought mono red goblin deck, but i still have no wasteland and no port. Do you think it's worth playing this deck without these lands? It will take me few months to buy these lands and I'm wondering if it's worth taking this deck to the tournament? Or is it better to take another deck with me?
Greetings for all of you guys,
I've been following this thread for a long time, just learning with the Goblins Lords, but never having any relevant thing to comment.
Well, this time I write to seek for some piece of advice:
I will play a tournament this Saturday with a Rg Goblin list and I plan to use 4 Mental Misstep maindeck. Since it will be banned from October on, (in a few days!) I wanted just to give a last try (it’s really my only try) at jwr1985’s plan.
You guys who have played with MM have any good advice on playing this card? (e.g.: “counter the first thing you get a chance to”; or “save it to protect your Lackey”; etc.)
I think I’ll use the following sideboard:
1 Goblin Chieftain
3 Pyrokinesis
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Tormod’s Crypt
4 Thorn of Amethyst (or Chalice of the Void?)
Would you recommend siding out MM in any matchup? What to side in in place of it?
Also… on my testing, I found out I am not to confident on playing against Merfolk. I would really like to have some tips from you, on playing against them.
How am I supposed to develop my strategy line / What do I need mostly to search for?
a) Guarantee any first drop?
b) Guarantee Vial?
c) (a) or (b) + Mental Misstep as backup?
d) Look for Piledriver as soon as possible?
e) Try to gain as much card advantage as soon as possible?
f) other…
I think I get a little lost between these plans…
Any help is appreciated.
I liked so much the conciseness of the wisdom contained on your phrase that I have considered to make it a signature quote...
I never had the feeling that MM was a dead card. Even in lategame I got to counter Noble Hirachs and others. So it's a good thing to keep 4 of them MD game 1. For your early game, there is not so much to protect your lackey. When you play Mountain, Lackey, Go, I would counter whatever he's playing (Removal, Creature, Brainstorm). I'd even counter his one drop if you're on the draw, 'cause turn 2 you might see goyf or SFM.
For the plan against Merfolk: I'd stick to the one-drops. They need to have an answer for anything you play, while Vial is better than Lackey in that matchup. But even if turn 1 lackey is countered and you have MWM or Piledriver in hand and even warchief, just go for it, what better can you draw if you mull down. Especially when you mull down, you will loose card advantage...
Gobbos: Kings of flavortext!
On playing MM- Counter the first 1cmc spell they play. I almost always mull to a Lackey or Vial, so if I'm lucky enough to also have a MM I use it at the first possible opportunity to help my guys gain tempo. You'll usually use it on another MM, a removal spell, or a Brainstorm. But yes, I would try using it on the first 1 drop they cast, if only because you can't be certain you'll get another chance to use it. Don't bother trying to save MM to protect your Lackey with. Your opponent can always just play a Goyf to shut your Lackey down.
Sideboard- Cheiftain seems weak. I'd cut him for a 4th Crypt or a Relic. 3 Pieces of GY hate never seems to be enough. Also, Sharpshooter is good enough for the Maindeck. If you get the Sharpshooter and Chieftain out of your sideboard you'll have room for 2 Red Elemental Blasts which can really help again Merfolk and Combo.
Sideboarding- Clearly anything with Stoneforge Mystic gets the Ancient Grudges in. Aside from that the SB is pretty easy. Thorn for decks that try to play tons of non-creature spells (Storm, Enchantress), Crypts for Recursion decks (Dredge, Aggro Loam, Reanimator), Pyros for anything with creatures (Zoo, Goblins, whathaveyou).
Siding out MM- Clearly you should side it out if you're playing manaless Dredge or Aggro-Loam (neither relies on 1 cc spells). Pay attention to the number of 1 cmc spells you see your opponent cast Game 1. If you only see 1 or 2 you can probably do without the MMs.
Merfolk- You want a Lackey or Vial. It doesn't matter which. You want to use Gempalms to gain card advantage and keep them from building a board. If you are on the draw and they cast a T1 Vial try countering it with MM. If they land a Vial, don't worry about it. They can't use it to play card drawing creatures to the extent that you can. Piledriver is your MVP. You can sometimes win with one big swing if the board is stalemated. Just Waste out their Mutavaults and turn all your guys sideways. More often than not they don't have the removal piece they need and they're dead to Pro Blue. Anyway, the MVPs of the Merfolk matchup are Piledriver, Gempalm, and Sharpshooter.
You were wondering...
a) Guarantee any first drop?
Yes, mull to a Lackey or Vial.
b) Guarantee Vial?
No, guaranteed Lackey/Vial.
c) (a) or (b) + Mental Misstep as backup?
If you have MM then you're looking good, but Lackey/Vial is more important.
d) Look for Piledriver as soon as possible?
He's pretty awesome, and you'll often need him to chump block and shut down blue dudes carrying Jittes.
e) Try to gain as much card advantage as soon as possible?
Not as soon as possible. That's a long game strategy.
f) other…
So many possibilities...
I hope I helped.
Hmm... that is something I was a bit worried about: "MM being a dead card".
But according to what you (and jwr1985) say, this is not really the case. Good.
Regarding the Merfolk match up, sometimes I get tempted to keep a (initial) hand without a 1st drop, but with good resources, like, for example: a Piledriver, a Warchief and a Matron.
Even then, would you suggest me to maintain the principle of “mulliganing after a 1st drop”?
(Thank you for the help!)
First of all, I thank you for all the valuable information!
About the topics:
Mental Misstep:
I think now I’m getting the point: “Go after the 1st drops. If by chance, I get a MM with it, good! If not, keep to the main plan.”
Sideboard:
I’m not sure what to cut maindeck to fit in Chieftain and Sharpshooter and make room for 2 more cards in the sideboard. Maybe it’ll help if I present the list I intend to play:
LANDS (22)
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
2 Taiga
6 Red Fetches
6 Mountain
CORE (25)
-1 SGC
FLEX (13)
4 Mental Misstep
3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Stingscourger
3 Tarfire (I'm trying to prevent me from loosing to SFM / Batterskull. Any other option would be better here?)
1 Goblin Chieftain (in addition I was thinking of running another one on the sideboard, like I wrote before)
1 TSH
Maybe should I just cut the TSH for Sharpshooter, and get rid of the other Chieftain copy on the sideboard?
This way, will I not suffer too much from artifact locks / attacks in Game 1? I guess I’m a little afraid of not having responses for everything they throw at me…
Sideboarding:
Against SFM’s decks, would it be good to side in the Pyrokinesis as well? Or is it too much, and only the Grudges do the work? (In this case, should I mull after a Grudge?)
The same think against Affinity: should I use Pyros and Grudges?
Would it be good to run Pyrokinesis against Merfolk too? In these situations, what to take out for the sideboarded cards?
Merfolk:
On the Merfolk match up, if by any chance I am able to place a 1st drop and them a Matron in play, what it would be better to search for?
About “Wasting their Mutavault”, if I start with/draw a Wasteland, should I save it in hand to waste as a “surprise effect”? Even if I don’t have many lands?
Or should I just play it and wait for then to play a Mutavault? (There's a risk of them wasting my Wasteland, in this case)
For me, Sharpshooter seemed bad against Merfolk, you know, because all their lords that pump their creatures really big... What would be the proper use of it, in this case?
I know that’s too much questions in a too short time, but I think there are so much for me to learn on the details of "fine-playing" Goblins, and I really want to make all the right plays on the tournament I’ll play in two days
Last edited by andrebonotto; 09-22-2011 at 02:38 PM. Reason: To correct punctuation.
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