Probably the same list.
As for PiF, I dont see that card beeing very great in TES builds as of now. It´s just too expensive and you need at least 2-3 Rituals to make it good but in TES, you have only 8 Rituals but 12 artifacts.
It may be good as a Wishtarget though...
DCI: 68 10 43 34Originally Posted by Mordel
In my next tournament i will test PiF as a maindeck one-off, replacing the Etw-Slot. It seems better to get it with an IT than a BW. But time and testing will show if this is good.
Seems like a second Ad Nauseam would just be better. The card is basically a blank if you draw it early, and if you're using infernal tutor, Ad Naus is probably a better target. To me, this card seems perfect for the board. Blow your load, they counter. Wish for PiF, do it again! The card gets better as the game drags on.
Idea for a post-Misstep, post-PiF TES-style deck:
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning WIsh
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Duress
4 Flusterstorm
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Grapeshot
1 Deathmark
1 Thoughtseize
1 Meltdown
1 Shattering Spree
3 Pyroblast
2 Echoing Truth
1 Wipe Away
Some of my reasoning: with Past in Flames shoring up the matchup against blue a bit, we may no longer need the white splash for Chant effects. If we cut Chants and Silence, we gain the enormous benefit of much less shaky manabase. To keep the total amount of protection the same, I've added Flusterstorm. I often find myself casting Chants defensively (e.g. in response to opposing Glimpses and Dark Rituals), perhaps as often as half of the time. Flusterstorm is versatile and I conjecture that it can fill the role of Chant effectively. Without Chant, we can probably not play Diminishing Returns, so that slot has been replaced by a wish-target Past in Flames.
"I'm willing to imagine a TES where Past in Flames replaces Ill-Gotten Gains entirely, and we just don't play Diminishing Returns." - me, 29/09/2011
Founding member of Team Scrubbad: Legacy Legends
You don't think thoughtseize would fill this role better?
This is not a rhetorical question, just an open ended one.
Past of Flames is just weaker than the second Ad Nauseam in the maindeck, it's a dead draw in the early game. It only gets better as the game progresses, by then you can just Burning Wish for it.
You realize Orim's Chant is better than ever right now? With Misstep gone, Stifles, Snares, Pierces, and other situation cards are coming in against us. Chant shuts them all down, where Duress does not. It's why it's in the deck to begin with.
Flusterstorm is terrible, we play Lion's Eye Diamond.
I play Returns all the time without protection.
Past in Flames in the main may indeed be wrong. The second maindeck Ad Nauseam just feels very awkward to me. Maybe we should just be playing an additional land in that slot. (Badlands?)
I'm not arguing that Chant is worse post-Misstep than it was while Misstep was legal. The deck above was designed with the idea that Chant may no longer be necessary. Splashing for powerful protection hurts the mana. We can make the mana better by playing different protection. I think a mix of proactive and reactive protection (Duress + Flusterstorm) might be right, instead of additional proactive protection like Thoughtseize. I think the additional angle Flusterstorm gives you might be rewarding, especially to those with higher skill levels.
Admittedly, there is a bad interaction with Lion's Eye Diamond in that Flusterstorm can't protect Tutor+Crack. However, if Stifle returns to the format (bringing tempo decks with it) I think making some effort to scoop less to Wasteland is appropriate. (Flusterstorm also protects a natural or a non-LED Tendrils from Stifle.)
I continue to contend that unprotected Diminishing Returns (and even Diminishing Returns in general) are garbage, and any illusion of regular success with them is due to confirmation bias.
"I'm willing to imagine a TES where Past in Flames replaces Ill-Gotten Gains entirely, and we just don't play Diminishing Returns." - me, 29/09/2011
Founding member of Team Scrubbad: Legacy Legends
I continue to contend that unprotected Diminishing Returns (and even Diminishing Returns in general) are garbage, and any illusion of regular success with them is due to confirmation bias.
May I ask how long have you been playing TES?
Diminishing Returns is the best way to turn a losable game into a winnable one, and does not require life total to do it. It can make a players hand they kept on the first turn into a auto mulligan and force game loss. It used to have the function of making Burning Wish have more legal targets since you removed ten cards each use.
The times I have won off of a random Diminshing Returns is atleast over half against blue based control. It's a pretty viable way to win when options are not there otherwise.. Since TES has alot of routes to victory, having a hail mary in the bag of tricks is pretty nice since many opponents cannot read the exact plays TES will do besides having something to do with LED or Dark Ritual most of the time.
Last edited by Shax; 09-23-2011 at 05:40 PM. Reason: balla walla wala
Team Shit Sandwich; smelling bad so you don't have to.
I would argue for Past in flames over Ill-Gotten Gains (main deck)
I have won so many games I have no business winning due to Diminishing Returns. That card can randomly be amazing and helps you win when you are in a losing situation. I've also won a couple games at 1 life off of a hail mary DR. The pros to DR highly outweigh the cons in my opinion.
I would also like to test a Past in Flames Maindeck over the 2nd Ad Nauseam. It might be better but who knows. It seems better against control than a 2nd ad nauseam or an igg, even tho the TES mu is good against control. Even more now that misstep is banned.
What do you not understand about Diminishing Returns being the only cost efficient, Burning Wish enabled Storm engine available? Provided you know how much and which mana to float, Diminishing Returns is the fastest, safest option vs. aggro and the only "oh shit" button you have vs. aggro-control off Burning Wish. Until they unban Mind's Desire, which is never going to happen, you have to play with Diminishing Returns because it's the only Storm engine for Burning Wish that gives you a chance of winning when Empty the Warren's time window has already passed.
If you're honestly dropping games with Diminishing Returns vs. aggro-control that much, just SB an Infernal Tutor and go the cost inefficient, life dependent path.
@Thefringthing
Calling the second Ad Nauseam "clunky" boggles my mind, I'd play with the third Ad Nauseam if I could because naturally drawing Ad Nauseam is arguably one of the strongest plays in this deck.
Honestly, the MD is pretty much set and the only interesting argument I've seen is replacing MD Tendrils for MD ETW or the old 4 vs 3 Chrome Mox, 1 SB Infernal Tutor, proper disruption package debates.
PiH has been garbage fwiw, you can throw it in the SB for the odd times it's useful but that's about it. I wouldn't even cut IGG for it, because at least IGG is a useful SB option vs. aggro if you bring it in game 2/3.
What do you not understand about Diminishing Returns being the only cost efficient, Burning Wish enabled Storm engine available? Provided you know how much and which mana to float, Diminishing Returns is the fastest, safest option vs. aggro and the only "oh shit" button you have vs. aggro-control off Burning Wish. Until they unban Mind's Desire, which is never going to happen, you have to play with Diminishing Returns because it's the only Storm engine for Burning Wish that gives you a chance of winning when Empty the Warren's time window has already passed.
If you're honestly dropping games with Diminishing Returns vs. aggro-control that much, just SB an Infernal Tutor and go the cost inefficient, life dependent path.
@Thefringthing
Calling the second Ad Nauseam "clunky" boggles my mind, I'd play with the third Ad Nauseam if I could because naturally drawing Ad Nauseam is arguably one of the strongest plays in this deck.
Honestly, the MD is pretty much set and the only interesting argument I've seen is replacing MD Tendrils for MD ETW or the old 4 vs 3 Chrome Mox, 1 SB Infernal Tutor, proper disruption package debates.
PiH has been garbage fwiw, you can throw it in the SB for the odd times it's useful but that's about it. I wouldn't even cut IGG for it, because at least IGG is a useful SB option vs. aggro if you bring it in game 2/3.
And still you play Pyroblast...
Pyroblast is a very debated and situational sideboard card. it works with LED in ways flutterstorm doesn't because you can cast it targeting a land prior to breaking the diamond.
Pyroblast is a very debated and situational sideboard card. it works with LED in ways flutterstorm doesn't because you can cast it targeting a land prior to breaking the diamond.
What a crazy play...no seriously one extra storm for one red is not a reason to play this card.
Flusterstorm is way more usefull because it hits discard spells like Toughtseize or Hymn to Tourach.
I just think it's funny/don't understand that Bryant says that Flusterstorm is terrible because it doesn't play well with LED while he plays Pyroblast in the board. Only advantage of Pyroblast is to counter a blind Counterbalance, which doesn't happen a lot of time these days.
If someone don't know why we play some cards please read the primer.
Blast protects mainly your other 8 protection spells or counters random balance, clique,...
4 flusterstorm and 4 duress main with 3 pyroblast in the board is really bad with led.
e.) Protection/Utility - In the early days of The EPIC Storm the deck relied on laying down a Xantid Swarm and winning the turn after. Blue decks adapted to answer X/1 creatures on turn 1, meaning that the deck had to adapt to compete. Xantid was cut for Orim’s Chant, but is often in and out of the main deck to compliment Orim’s Chant. Also complimenting Chant is Duress, Duress is there to protect Orim’s Chant or to take problematic cards like Counterbalance out of the opponent’s hand. Out of the sideboard the deck plays Red Elemental Blast and/or Pyroblast to deal with Force of Will on Orim’s Chant mainly. However, it can also be used to kill a Counterbalance- a huge threat to The EPIC Storm. Recently with the printing of Silence, many people opt for a split between Orim’s Chant and Silence because of cards that name cards, such as – Runed Halo, Meddling mage, Cabal Therapy, ect.
Flusterstorm hitting Hymn or thoughtseize is very relevant. You guys should give it a shot in the board sometime, instead of REB.
Well, please read my posts all well.
I never said that 4 Duress and 3/4 Flusterstorm MD was good (it is indeed a bad choice imho). I said that the SB Pyroblasts are no better than the SB Flusterstorms because Flusterstorm hits way more things nowadays (now that CBTop is no longer a viable deck choice and that we see more discard spells like Thoughtseize or Hymn to Tourach). With that said, I still don't understand how can people think Pyroblast is good when Flusterstorm is "terrible".
Divert is better. And we didn't play it for years.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
