Draener pretty much covered my response to this, and probably better than I would have. My claim about the difference between the dominance of blue-- as in 2 blue decks are dominating, or as in blue is everywhere in every deck-- was backed up by the observations that blue was already everywhere and that that's a function of FoW and brainstorm. The DCI's point can be interpreted as saying that 1) all of a sudden there was an explosion of different blue decks that were made by MM, or 2) those two decks that were blue that did explode did so because of MM. The latter is just stupid: they exploded because they're able to exploit blue's strengths while remaining very threat heavy. They can essentially win on the spot. Misstep helps, but calling it the main offender would be like calling the knight the most broken piece on the chessboard. So I gave the DCI the benefit of the doubt and immediately assumed they meant the former. Unfortunately, though, despite my giving them credit, that makes little more sense. It's easily testable: just look at the meta. There simply wasn't an absurd explosion of blue archetypes.Originally Posted by UnderwaterGuy
So that part of my post that you quoted makes more sense in the context of the rest of what I said. Protip: read the full post.
1st the ban is based upon HATE MAIL, which means Wizards/DCI cannot be trusted.
2nd you did make an effort to post a reply.
Source?
The seven cardinal sins of Legacy:
1. Discuss the unbanning ofLand TaxEarthcraft.
2. Argue that banning Force of Will would make the format healthier.
3. Play Brainstorm without Fetchlands.
4. Stifle Standstill.
5. Think that Gaea's Blessing will make you Solidarity-proof.
6. Pass priority after playing Infernal Tutor.
7. Fail to playtest against Nourishing Lich (coZ iT wIlL gEt U!).
Mental Misstep IS better than FoW in the MM-format. No matter how much theorizing you can do above, the fact is MM is better, even when the format was shifting towards 3cmc/4cmc bombs, when it did, FoW became more relevant again, but never was MM underpowered during that period.
Not losing a card pitched to MM is HUGE, and is a big drawback of FoW. Many people forget that pitching a card to FoW is often times a strategy used to tax the blue control player's resource.
Decks that I care about:
Steel Stompy
UWx Landstill
Dreadstalker
DDFT (10% practice)
Mangara on MWS? You must be masochistic. -kiblast
I mean, it seems like the obvious solution to your problem is to rally up everyone you can to send hate mail to Wizards so they'll immediately fix your grievance. It worked for the new borders, it worked for Mythic Rares, it worked for the M10 Rules Changes...right?
...And even if for some reason your conjecture is actually right, I'm confused. Wouldn't this mean that Wizards can be trusted, since they listen to their customers? All that would mean is that people got tired of hearing all of the "adapt or die" bullshit that they hear from overly-competitive people since they want to play more than they want to compete, and therefore want a format that allows them to play decks with one-drops instead of being ecstatic that they only have to prepare for three different decks every time they go to a tournament.
Players has been bitching about the card since wizards banned MM upon the announcement of Modern.
Also the most recent "major tournament" was won by Dredge (which was said to be dead because of MM)
Sure I have no evidence to support this; but wizards has always respond to players complains, the magic backs/expansion symbols, removing demonic symbols, the reserve list (Chronicles/4th edition) and the emergency banning of Memory Jar... [there are many others]
I prefer tournament results for a ban, not this speedy, emergency banning crap.
I also dont believe Wizards and DCI are the same entity... It's not right... especially when this game is played like a poker game.
That's all I read. Enough of your strawmen and conjecture.
This basically sums up my views on the Misstep ban. If people want a format with 3 decks they can metagame against and be uber competitive, standard exists. Legacy is the best format (IMO) because of the diversity, and fun that comes with that. It was no longer fun for me (or a lot of other players, from what I've seen) while Misstep was round.
Lord of the Chalice
Stompy Discord: https://discord.gg/6cesvkz
We saw this with Mystical as well. After the ban people went back and made it into some boogeyman that it never was. You make it sound like Mental Misstep punched in the dick and fucked your sister on your bed. Misstep was not better, in Legacy, than Spell Snare or Spell Pierce. The number of decks that ran Misstep instead of a counter that fit better because of the MM hype is legion.
FoW's drawback could matter in "blue control", which is an archtype I could care the less. The problem with FoW is that its "drawback" barely matters in blue tempo and it doesn't matter at all in blue combo. Notice how the decks winning tournaments happen to fall in those two categories. Now tell me how can you stop a deck that uses FoW and MM solely as a way to slow you down, that doesn't require you to slow down yourself or play these cards, and then you singlehandedly fix the format without having to ban any card.
If these tempo decks only had MM available, you could use moxes and other mana accelerators to race them without relying on 1cc spells, however accelerators inherently have that "HUGE" (lol) drawback of FoW, and they also inherently cancel the "card disadvantage" that FoW has that supposedly makes it fair; So FoW seems to invalidate the best strategy available against MM-powered tempo decks.
On the other hand, racing FoW-based tempo decks seems to require you to play a lot of redundant 1cc spells and also no acceleration that is card disadvantage, but this happens to make MM that much better. So MM invalidates the best strategy against FoW-powered tempo decks (which isn't very good to begin with).
Therefore, the best tempo decks run both MM and FoW, because even if the opponent doesn't play 1cc cards, MM pitches to FoW, and because MM is a dead card in this case, there's no "card disadvantage" in playing FoW. People seem to forget that FoW makes all your blue cards better by turning dead cards into gas, and that it's only "card disadvantage" when you are forced to pitch a card you actually need.
Take the tournament data from Top 16 from the last three months, and you'll notice that the best decks kept playing both cards all this time, and MM only seems more prevalent because of the few nonblue decklists that also played it, not because blue control decks suddenly started taking FoW out of their lists.
Blue tempo with MM but without FoW would be much fairer, because you could actually build a deck that invalidated their strategy. Blue tempo with FoW has been known to dominate since before the format was born, and blue combo with FoW ends with their cards routinely banned. And this will always be this way until someone at R&D decides to print a card that actually does anything against these decks, ban pieces of the blue shell, or people get bored of the format and leave to play Modern.
Please stop talking about whether Force of Will is broken or not. It obviously is, and rather than "the glue that holds vintage together" it would be better to call it "the rug under which you hide the filth until there's so much that you can no longer conceal it".
WTF?
Mental Misstep was the second best card in Legacy, after Brainstorm. It was the most played card in Legacy as well.
`What I think MM did was show off the power of Force of will and Brainstorm. Every professional believes the combination of those two cards is the most powerful in legacy.Think about it, why did MM strengthen blue the most? The answer is because even though it was a narrow card but powerful card it just didn't matter because it helped the two already most powerful cards in the format.
MM lost its value no problem brainstorm it away and shuffle your library with a fetch land now that mm just transformed into a card that can actually win the game after you survived the early game (Coughjacecough). The second thing was that the card was blue so it naturally put the blue count to make Force of will more powerful and what is better to pitch to force then a narrow yet powerful card like mm when its usefulness died. Mental Misstep is only broken in this format due to brainstorm and force. MM can't exist in an environment that is reliant on 1 drops and that also allows for the existence of force and brainstorm all at the same time. The card would not be no where as near as game changing in modern due to the lack of the big two of the color blue.
1st - If McDonalds didn't listen to their customers, they wouldn't still be serving millions of customers a day. Same with Wizards or any other large company. They want to produce and support a game that is fun above all else.
2nd - I did use the word PRODUCTIVE. Arguing over why Misstep was banned or why it shouldn't have been banned is not productive. Seeking a way to deal without it in decklists is productive.
Wizards said they printed Misstep for a specific purpose, and it didn't really accomplish that purpose. They banned the card because of what it did to the format. Now we need to be concentrating on the steps forward, as opposed to loathing the steps already taken.
So, according to some of you, wotc should have banned FoW and not Mental Misstep ?
To me FoW is not really in the essence of legacy (brainstorm, stp, dark ritual are) so i would have no problem with that. I would prefer to see FoW banned than brainstorm or MM.
No one here advocate for such a stupid thing like the banning of FoW.
This is not even remotely true.
At a rough estimate one mana is roughly one infinity times more than zero mana.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
At least Brainstorm and Force of Will are interesting cards that require sound decision making. If you don't have a blue card to pitch, Force is dead, so the downside is real, especially in 3-color builds; it also affects your deck-building (blue count) and costs you a card (Sometimes it's a daze or some other card of limited use, but plenty of times it's a brainstorm or another force.) Misstep was too good for being so easy to use and add to decks. It's greatest sin was crippling an eclectic variety of combo decks that are interesting to play and develop. Good Riddance.
If combo gets out of control, I hope Wizards prints some strong anti-combo cards that aren't limited to that use and are not blue, rather than ban important combo pieces, one by one. I actually like the idea of MM that was only for non-creature spells.
Agreed. I'm pretty fucking sure that we would have seen 89023756389045 Snares and Pierces if those cards were better than Misstep. Also, the meta BEFORE Misstep would barely have changed when it was printed, if those cards were so good. Spikey, I would like to know what drug you're on right now, and if I could please borrow some ASAP, because I want to see and think crazy shit.
Lord of the Chalice
Stompy Discord: https://discord.gg/6cesvkz
Because everyone always plays the best cards, amirite? That's why tournaments are so homogeneous... Magic players are nothing if not exceptional at evaluating cards. Like Tarmogoyf, Vengevine or Lorescale Coatl.
How relevant was Misstep against NO RUG or Stoneblade? If you answered as relevant as tits on a nun, you're correct ( and sick like me). And how relevant was it against Fish outside of that 17 or 18% of the time you had it for their turn 1 vial? If you again answered as relevant as a purity ring on prom night, you're correct again! Pro tip: if your miracle card is bad against 1/3 of a given field, and the TOP 1/3 at that, it's probably overhyped. But you're right, it must be the drugs.
It's arguable that this was a significant contributing factor to their being the best/most popular decks in the format before Misstep was banned.
How about we make a "I Miss Mental Misstep" thread? You guys can talk about the good ole days when there was a free counter running rampant. You guys can develop theories about how WotC screwed over it's customer base by listening to it's customers base, in that thread.
Whether Mental Misstep was broken or not, it did not work out too well in the Legacy format. Whether it was coincidence or not that Stoneblade & NoRug started trampling the SCGs tourneys after mental misstep showed up, we may never know. But we do know the end effect was the banning of MM, to hopefully get back the diversity the format had immediately prior to the printing of MM.
If you don't like diversity in your metagames try out block or standard.
If you like games that will always last longer than three turns try draft or standard.
If you just really enjoyed playing with a free counterspell that hits one mana costs spells try Vintage or standard.
If none of those formats interest you then post on the "I Miss Mental Misstep" thread, where you dream what Legacy would have been with Snapcaster Mage + Mental Misstep.
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