The September 20th 2011 Banned / Restricted List Update Reaction Thread

[RJM]

After really stewing on it for a while, and reading pretty much every thread we have across the various forums, and playing with it a number of times on Cockatrice... I'm pretty close to sure that the only truly viable reason I can understand Misstep getting the ban so quickly, is because of the printing of Snapcaster Mage. It's pretty damn degenerate.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

After really stewing on it for a while, and reading pretty much every thread we have across the various forums, and playing with it a number of times on Cockatrice... I'm pretty close to sure that the only truly viable reason I can understand Misstep getting the ban so quickly, is because of the printing of Snapcaster Mage. It's pretty damn degenerate.

If that was the argument, I'd be happy with it. Or, at least, a lot happier.

[RJM]

If that was the argument, I'd be happy with it. Or, at least, a lot happier.

I don't know that "that's the argument" in any official capacity, for whatever that would be worth. But it is what I'm generally coming to terms with in accepting the ban as quickly as we got it. :-)

[Nerrzull]

This Banning / Unbanning .... and similar SHI. is going on my nerves .... and FU..... my valet!

Come on WoTC make up some strategy about Banning! FFS!

People will adapt and build around it!

Best thing right now is to play online and stop dropping money in fire!

Some ridiculously strong thing are floating around still ... and MM ... witch only could stop 1.st turn powerful drops (like lackey or vial) or pesky 1 mana removals (swords/path) ... is out.

As i understand .... Wizards would like to see more creature based decks .... how can u play such a thing with low cost pest removals like that!

Now again ... gobos and folk will rake across Legacy! And it was just becoming interesting! They should have let it some more time to develop!

Innnistrad is pretty disappointing so far!

IS THERE A HELMSMAN AT WIZARDS? WHAT IS THE COURSE IN WITCH MAGIC IS HEADING?!

[coraz86]

After really stewing on it for a while, and reading pretty much every thread we have across the various forums, and playing with it a number of times on Cockatrice... I'm pretty close to sure that the only truly viable reason I can understand Misstep getting the ban so quickly, is because of the printing of Snapcaster Mage. It's pretty damn degenerate.

Just as long as they don't follow the lead established in Modern, where they specifically banned Jitte because SFM can dig it up....then banned SFM, but didn't follow that logical argument and unban Jitte.

As has been said by many people here, and will no doubt be reiterated, the fundamental problem at the root of all this is not the bannings themselves, but the vagnificent communication of the bannings. Turian and Forsythe both used to give excellent B&R updates; even if I wasn't happy that one of my favorite cards was getting the axe, at least I understood the logic and could agree that it was for the best. Whatever the DCI is doing, it's completely beyond question that they need a better mouthpiece to convey it.

[CorpT]

As has been said by many people here, and will no doubt be reiterated, the fundamental problem at the root of all this is not the bannings themselves, but the vagnificent communication of the bannings. Turian and Forsythe both used to give excellent B&R updates; even if I wasn't happy that one of my favorite cards was getting the axe, at least I understood the logic and could agree that it was for the best. Whatever the DCI is doing, it's completely beyond question that they need a better mouthpiece to convey it.

This is very, very true. No one will mock this explanation for years on end like LaPille's "explanations" are still mocked. Regardless of how you feel about the banning, at least they put competent people in charge of explaining the thought process. That counts for quite a bit.

[joemauer]

How many will actually play Lands and how many will carry it to top 8s? It is way too slow and will be. Lands will be as viable as it was in the MM era.

ANT was still played in Europe. However with MM combo could evolve and produce decks like Hive Mind because people couldn't pack up storm combo decks as easily. Isn't that good for diversity? Seeing new decks around?

I'd rather play BUG Landstill over Enlightened tutor thopter deck as a control player.

Lands uses Exploration & Manabond, so Mental Misstep was a serious hurdle.

Hive Mind was around before Mental Misstep,see magic league. Mental Misstep let it exploit the format.

You do know BUG landstill was a deck before Mental Misstep came around, right?


Also, all these people acting like Mental Misstep was their only hope versus Aether Vial?!? You guys realize that the two decks that used Aether Vial the most, before and after Mental Misstep was printed, were Merfolk and Goblins. These decks quickly added(goblins not so quickly) Misstep to their own decks which protected them from your Missteps.

[troopatroop]

Lands uses Exploration & Manabond, so Mental Misstep was a serious hurdle.

Hive Mind was around before Mental Misstep,see magic league. Mental Misstep let it exploit the format.

You do know BUG landstill was a deck before Mental Misstep came around, right?


Also, all these people acting like Mental Misstep was their only hope versus Aether Vial?!? You guys realize that the two decks that used Aether Vial the most, before and after Mental Misstep was printed, were Merfolk and Goblins. These decks quickly added(goblins not so quickly) Misstep to their own decks which protected them from your Missteps.

I agree with all of this. Mental Misstep was always too good not to play, and it had its affects.


I welcome the new period of change, but I just see no reason not to play Storm now, or some form of Combo. The Combo players so clearly win with MM gone, and if Control is losing as well? Combo Winter. Like, Okay? I guess Chalice is better, but not even...

[Lemnear]

Lands uses Exploration & Manabond, so Mental Misstep was a serious hurdle.

Hive Mind was around before Mental Misstep,see magic league. Mental Misstep let it exploit the format.

You do know BUG landstill was a deck before Mental Misstep came around, right?


Also, all these people acting like Mental Misstep was their only hope versus Aether Vial?!? You guys realize that the two decks that used Aether Vial the most, before and after Mental Misstep was printed, were Merfolk and Goblins. These decks quickly added(goblins not so quickly) Misstep to their own decks which protected them from your Missteps.

A deck that wasn't played in tournaments over the last 6 months, totaly depending on 8-One-Drops got killed? Who cares? Pet-deckers, no one else

The most goblin Players didn't Play misstep for dumb reasons like Not being a goblin for ringleader (See Forum) and DID complain that without their Vial and Lackey being Auto-win, Goblins are unplayable and Misstep kills "diversity"

Meerfolk played it against spot-removal against their lords like StP and Zoo's Burn.

[Lemnear]

After really stewing on it for a while, and reading pretty much every thread we have across the various forums, and playing with it a number of times on Cockatrice... I'm pretty close to sure that the only truly viable reason I can understand Misstep getting the ban so quickly, is because of the printing of Snapcaster Mage. It's pretty damn degenerate.

I did bring this up too, just a Week ago. Could be the Second time WotC prints a card to justify banning another one (Vengevine/Survival). But I can't see this here. People bitched before SCM was spoilered.

[xfxf]

I welcome the new period of change,

New period of change was last month. Now it's back to the same old if you haven't noticed.

[GoblinSettler]

A deck that wasn't played in tournaments over the last 6 months, totaly depending on 8-One-Drops got killed? Who cares? Pet-deckers, no one else

The most goblin Players didn't Play misstep for dumb reasons like Not being a goblin for ringleader (See Forum) and DID complain that without their Vial and Lackey being Auto-win, Goblins are unplayable and Misstep kills "diversity"

Meerfolk played it against spot-removal against their lords like StP and Zoo's Burn.

I'm coming at this from the point of view of a 'pet-decker'.

Seriously, the Misstep meta was maybe the best Goblins has had in a long time. Storm wrecks Goblins. ANT, TES, Spring Tide were pretty much gone. With a slower format, the one drops aren't as important. Against a field of midrange decks, Goblins can grind out via card advantage all day. As a bonus, mono-red picked up a way to handle spot removal.

Now that Misstep is gone, Goblins is probably much worse. In addition to being a target for sideboard hate again, combo is back in a big way.

Goblins lists will need to adapt more now than during Misstep-era.

[sir]

I'm pretty close to sure that the only truly viable reason I can understand Misstep getting the ban so quickly, is because of the printing of Snapcaster Mage. It's pretty damn degenerate.

Yeah, the two together would have been bad.

Seriously, the Misstep meta was maybe the best Goblins has had in a long time. Storm wrecks Goblins. ANT, TES, Spring Tide were pretty much gone. With a slower format, the one drops aren't as important. Against a field of midrange decks, Goblins can grind out via card advantage all day. As a bonus, mono-red picked up a way to handle spot removal.

Now that Misstep is gone, Goblins is probably much worse. In addition to being a target for sideboard hate again, combo is back in a big way.

Goblins lists will need to adapt more now than during Misstep-era.

Unusual, interesting viewpoint -- from someone who stuck it out. Heh, a lot of people sold their Goblins or, like, there was one guy I heard from who quit MTG in a rage after he bought into Legacy by filling out Goblins, bought his Piledrivers and Wastelands and Rishadan Port, and then Misstep was printed, and he felt discouraged. (!)

What I've always gathered though is that Goblins was a top-tier deck before, which posted great results all the time, and under Misstep it certainly was not. What has substantively changed that makes Combo more of a problem post-Misstep than it was before Misstep was printed?

[Admiral_Arzar]

What has substantively changed that makes Combo more of a problem post-Misstep than it was before Misstep was printed?

Nothing. People are crying that there will be a combo winter because that's what people who hate combo do. There was no such thing before the printing of Misstep, and there won't be one now, unless everyone suddenly decides to play combo because they think it's the best thing ever (unlikely).

[sir]

Yeah, I have to agree, unless we're missing something, or something.

[Solar Ice]

Nothing. People are crying that there will be a combo winter because that's what people who hate combo do. There was no such thing before the printing of Misstep, and there won't be one now, unless everyone suddenly decides to play combo because they think it's the best thing ever (unlikely).

Yes 100%. I totally agree with this ban, it really is the best thing that WotC could have done for Legacy.

I am also amazed that so many pleople on this forum, it seems, love having their one drops constantly countered and refuse to accept combo as a legitimate archetype (not to mention extremely skill intensive in the case of ANT/TES/SI/DDFT) that people actually like to play. People really need to accept the fact that combo/goblins/elves and a host of other decks are viable again (and not "pet-decks" as some here like to call them). Too many caw-blade mirror-loving Standard players in this thread, it seems. What the hell is wrong with having a diverse metagame?

Really, this discussion, apart from going nowhere, is getting really tiresome. Less bitching and moanng and m0Ar deckbuilding please.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Yes 100%. I totally agree with this ban, it really is the best thing that WotC could have done for Legacy.

I am also amazed that so many pleople on this forum, it seems, love having their one drops constantly countered and refuse to accept combo as a legitimate archetype (not to mention extremely skill intensive in the case of ANT/TES/SI/DDFT) that people actually like to play. People really need to accept the fact that combo/goblins/elves and a host of other decks are viable again (and not "pet-decks" as some here like to call them). Too many caw-blade mirror-loving Standard players in this thread, it seems. What the hell is wrong with having a diverse metagame?

Agreed on all counts. The explanation is that this forum (as well as MTGSalvation) is full of blue-playing elitists who think countering spells is the only way to play magic, and also believe that control is the only skill-testing archetype in the game.

[Richard Cheese]

Haters gonna hate right?

[Koby]

I, for one, am looking forward to so called combo winter. It will mean that new creative solutions to the overabundance of combo decks will become formed. In this category I see UW Tempo, Maverick, Tempo Thresh, and other hate-bear styled aggro-control decks will be played, which is where the most fun of Legacy exists anyway.

[Lemnear]

I'm coming at this from the point of view of a 'pet-decker'.

Seriously, the Misstep meta was maybe the best Goblins has had in a long time. Storm wrecks Goblins. ANT, TES, Spring Tide were pretty much gone. With a slower format, the one drops aren't as important. Against a field of midrange decks, Goblins can grind out via card advantage all day. As a bonus, mono-red picked up a way to handle spot removal.

Now that Misstep is gone, Goblins is probably much worse. In addition to being a target for sideboard hate again, combo is back in a big way.

Goblins lists will need to adapt more now than during Misstep-era.

Agree with this 100%. Warren Instigator was very strong during that time but as I said: People got their Vial countered and their Lackey sworded, loosing games. Then those people tend to join the "misstep is overpowered" wagon, stop playing Goblins instead of metagaming (Instigator is that good) and play misstep themselves