Team Grixis (UBr tempo)

[wcm8]

Updated list 02/26/2013:

19 Lands:
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland

16 Creatures:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Dark Confidant
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Deathrite Shaman

25 Spells:
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning
4 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize
3 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce

Sideboard (a work in progress)
X Red Elemental Blast
X Pyroblast
X Thoughtseize
X Hymn to Tourach
X Sulfuric Vortex
X Ancient Grudge
X Perish
X Shattering Spree
X Engineered Explosives
X Nihil Spellbomb
X Tormod's Crypt
X Extirpate / Surgical Extraction
X Tormod's Crypt
X Sulfur Elemental
X Rough // Tumble
X Electrickery
X Engineered Plague
X Izzet Staticaster
X Dread of Night
X Submerge
X Divert
X Misdirection
X Vendilion Clique
X Grim Lavamancer

Other considerations: Forked Bolt, Fire//Ice, Dismember, Diabolic Edict, Dead//Gone, Kira, Great Glass-Spinner, Jace TMS, Hydroblast/BEB/Chill, Dead/Gone, Pyroclasm, Firespout, Price of Progress (as a SB blow-out card vs. certain decks), Virtue's Ruin, Counter/Top etc.

Rationale

Dark Confidant is a powerful creature, and the current build is designed to take advantage of the constant stream of cards he provides. When/If your creatures become outclassed by the opposition, you can start directing burn at your opponent. Deathrite Shaman helps provide reach as well as fixing mana and providing some resiliency to Wasteland. The lone Tropical Island is there to help him eat creatures and also grant access to some sideboard cards -- Grixis provides plenty of sideboard options for beating difficult matchups.

Older Lists

You can find older lists scattered throughout this thread. Most involve a slightly higher land count, more removal, and alternative creature options (e.g. Tombstalker, Snapcaster Mage, Vendilion Clique, etc.) While a more middle-of-the-road build is certainly viable, I feel that this approach lacks the advantages provided by playing Green as a tertiary splash color in a tempo deck. BUG and RUG both have tools available to them that seem to outclass the options available to Grixis at the moment. I think that Grixis is currently just a few cards off from being a tier 1 competitive alternative to RUG and BUG.

[JustPAT4]

Seems like a really nice fit for Delver of secrets. However, it is a bit awkward with the stifle plan.

Dropping green seems fine, but I must say that I really dislike the anti-synergy between Tombstalker and Snapcaster Mage. Especially 4 stalkers seems excessive. Maybe 2? Only maybe. I've heard some buzz about Mental Note being a way to power both cards.

I'd be tempted to replace Tombstalker with a few copies of V-Clique, and then you'd get extra value out of running unearth which seems outstanding with Snappy and Clique.

I also think that the Bloodstained Mires should just be Polluted Deltas and then you could try to fit a basic swamp and a basic island.

This is kinda what I'm thinking:

3 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Phantasmal Image
2 Vendilion Clique

2 Dismember
3 Lightning Bolt

3 Hymn to Tourach

4 Stifle

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder

2 Unearth

4 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare/Spell Pierce

2 Jace the Mind Sculptor

3 Wasteland
1 Riptide Laboratory
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Island
1 Swamp


Jace seems like it fixes so many holes that this deck could encounter in the mid-late game.

It'd also be really nice to fit some number of Thoughtsieze or Inquisition of Kozilek. And I also really like the flexibility provided by Fire/Ice.

Still it looks like fun and it seems like there are many ways people could tweek based on individual playstyle or particular metas. The build I posted looks like a middling approach. One could easily go heavier or lighter on countermagic, could include more reach/removal effects like Fire/Ice, Diabolic Edic, or Go for the Throat, more hand manipulation in the form of Thoughtsieze, or IoK, or more deck manipulation in the form of additional Ponders.

Cheers,

Pat

[wcm8]

I would play Predict before playing Mental Note if that's an effect you're looking for.

Jace seems really bad in this current metagame, though he could certainly be a good 2-of in the sideboard to bring in against certain decks.

Tombstalker wins games that Clique doesn't. Especially with the other creatures being small, you'll want to see Stalker in just about every game.

Im not a big fan of Unearth. I think Reanimate would be better because the life loss is negligible and you can recover the opponents creatures that you killed/discarded. You could also randomly blow out Reanimator opponents with it.

[wcm8]

Also I should stress that the reason to even play black in a deck like this is for discard and Tombstalker. If you want a deck that isn't taking advantage of them, I would just play straight UR Canadian-style thresh or New Horizons. Tombstalker is a 4-turn clock on it's own, but between fetchlands, bolts, FoWs and perhaps a few swings with Delver, he demands an almost immediate answer.

I could see -maybe- cutting stifle since it is somewhat situational and at odds with a T1 Delver, but it can sometimes just blow opponents out. If I were to replace it, I'd look at Spell Pierce.

[JustPAT4]

Also I should stress that the reason to even play black in a deck like this is for Hymn and Tombstalker

That's fine. Makes sense. However the synergy between snapcaster and tombstalker really is epically bad. Maybe Snapcaster isn't the best choice for this build then, considering how hungry he is for situational spells?

Im not a big fan of Unearth. I think Reanimate would be better because the life loss is negligible and you can recover the opponents creatures that you killed/discarded. You could also randomly blow out Reanimator opponents with it.

That seems reasonable. Although the synergy between Snapcaster and Unearth is pretty savage. With Snappy in the yard, B brings it back, then for another B you can get back any other dude, or can cast another convenient instant/sorcery. Reanimate can fill this role as well, though the life loss will not always be negligible.

[serendib]

4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Underground Sea
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth/Badlands
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tombstalker
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
3 Daze
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Dismember/Go for the Throat
4 Force of Will

are you sure snapcaster + tombstalker is a good idea ?
They are not friends.

[wcm8]

Please test the deck before assuming that the dis-synergy is so relevant. Tombstalker and Goyf play fine together, and it's not like you're going to be flashing back lands or FoW. The main card we are interested in flashing back is Lightning Bolt, the rest are incidental possibilities.

Creatures that -don't- work well with Stalker: nimble mongoose, grim lavamancer. Snapcaster is a late game card whose inclusion is actually somewhat just of a test. I could easily see him being replaced by 3 Vendilion Clique. But the reason is not because you suddenly won't have flashback targets/be able to cast Tombstalker.

[bfeingersh]

Snapcaster probably goes fine with Tombstalker. I'm playing a list with 2 Snapcasters and 2 Lavamancers and they don't tend to get in the way. Not every card in the deck is there to get flashed back, like WCM said you will have fetches, wastelands, forces, and creatures that got countered to pitch to delve.

I really think my list could use some Tombstalker beef. It's not quite Team Grixis but it shares a few cards, but mine is more of a Wizard Vial deck. It's just not very good at closing out games at this point. Here's what I'm bringing to a tournament this weekend (sideboard still up in the air):


//Creatures:
4x Dark Confidant
4x Spellstutter Sprite
3x Vendilion Clique
2x Snapcaster Mage
2x Grim Lavamancer

//Artifacts:
4x Aether Vial
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Feast and Famine

//Instants:
4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
1x Counterspell
2x Spell Snare
1x Ghastly Demise
1x Go for the Throat
1x Diabolic Edict
2x Terminate
1x Dismember

//Lands:
4x Underground Sea
3x Volcanic Island
1x Island
4x Polluted Delta
4x Scalding Tarn
4x Wasteland
2x Riptide Laboratory

//Sideboard:
3x Perish
4x Leyline of the Void
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Ghastly Demise
1x Spell Pierce
4x Duress

[wcm8]

Updated the opening post. Thinking this deck could be great right now, because it has most of the same positive matchups as RUG, but having black patches up some of the problems that deck has. The only disadvantage seems to be not having Nimble Mongoose against control decks -- Thoughtseize helps out quite a bit here though.

[wert]

There is another thread which is going in the same direction, maybe a merge?
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...k-Grixis-Tempo

[wcm8]

There is another thread which is going in the same direction, maybe a merge?
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...k-Grixis-Tempo

Yeah I'd be fine with a merge. Fwiw I posted my topic first ;)

[wcm8]

Testing has been good for the build so far. I think just using RUG's removal suite (4 Bolt, 2 Forked Bolt/Chain Lightning) is fine because you can just ignore their creatures for the most part and race with flyers and dome them with burn. 2-3 Perish + other stuff in the SB can usually handle Maverick just fine in the SB games.

[Tombstalker]

wcm8- I've posted a similar list in the TA thread but I'm happy to post here instead/too. I think the majority of this deck we can agree on but the 3rd creature is up for testing and debate. Personally I found scm too mana intensive in RUG so I would anticipate the same here although I haven't tested it here yet.

One thing I think we should keep in mind is that our main competition RUG tempo. If this deck can't do tempo better than no one will play it over RUG.

Here's a variation of both our lists I am going to test tomorrow:

CRUEL TEMPO
Lands 18
4 polluted delta
4 scalding Tarn
3 underground sea
1 badlands
2 volcanic island
4 wasteland

Creatures 8
4 delver of secrets
4 tombstalker

Spells
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 lightning bolt
2 chain lightning
2 snuff out

4 force of will
4 daze
2 spell pierce
4 stifle
4 thoughtseize

This list focuses on pure aggression and feeding tombstalkers/delvers. If nothing else I think the name is pretty cool :)

[wcm8]

I don't think the list *needs* all 3 Snapcasters, but I would play at least 2. They provide a form of mid-game advantage and can make your burn spells more lethal. If you drop down to 2, add another burn spell (I really think Forked Bolt is better than Chain Lightning right now, although this could change).

I've been testing the 4th Underground Sea as the 19th land in my list, and so far, so good although I think it could also be a Badlands. Like other 3-color tempo decks, I don't think this deck can afford to run basics, because you'll end up losing far more games due to color-screw than you do to Wasteland.

The combination of Dread of Night and Perish in the SB has proven to be awesome against Maverick in my testing.

[wcm8]

I noticed this deck on TC decks today:

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...6&iddeck=57814

This list is pretty much the same as what I'm testing with the following changes:

-4 Thoughtseize
-3 Forked Bolt
-2 Snapcaster Mage

+4 Spell Snare
+3 Dismember
+2 Vendilion Clique

Regarding Spell Snare: I've never been a huge fan of the card, and I think Thoughtseize is more powerful card against a bigger variety of decks. I mean sure, mid-to-late game I'd probably rather have Snare in hand, but as with all tempo decks, we are focused on the early game.

For me, Forked Bolt has been killing most of the creatures I've been wanting to kill anyways, and bigger stuff like KotR will often be able to shrug off a Dismember. It can also lead to the occasional 2-for-1 blowout, as well as functioning as additional burn for the last few points of damage.

As for Vendilion Clique, I like the card and can understand the inclusion, but the combination of Snapcaster + Thoughtseize/Bolt is just too good to pass up.

In any case, I will be testing my list 'for realsies' this weekend and will report back after the tournament.

[Tombstalker]

I look forward to your results! Ive been playing CT as my go-to deck while testing UBr tempo and I gotta say I dont see why this deck doesnt unseat CT as a DTB. It has far better matchups against mav, bant and esperblade, and I still think its favored against CT.

Im a fan of forked bolt in canadian and there I run 2, but why in this deck where all the threats fly? i havent tried FB in grixis colors but it seems like here chain lightning would be superior since we dont need to clear the way for geese/goyfs. Also I dont see a good reason not to be running at least 1-2 snuff outs to smash the real threats like KotR etc. This is where canadian suffers and we have the chance to run one of the greatest removals aside from StP.

Lastly I have been testing with a single clique plus 2 reanimates main. Clique is clique and the 1-of means ill never see dublicates since I always hated running more than 1 in traditional TA. Here it basically serves as the 9th flyer/5th discard and is the only 3cc spell I run.
The 2 reanimates are pretty insane I highly recommend them. Between counters, removal and discard there is never a shortage of creatures to choose from and theres nothing like putting a 8/8 KotR or geist on the board and then following it up with a tombstalker. If nothing else it could be a nice target for snapcaster to target snapcaster for another bolt. IDK.

[wcm8]

Since I am utilizing Snapcaster, I can't really justify running Snuff Out instead of Dismember.

In any case, Forked Bolt plays an important role against Maverick by slowing them down significantly by killing their Heirarchs, Mothers, Arbors, and any other X/1 or X/2 creatures. Time is of the essence in winning against Maverick, because they have a much stronger late game. Forked Bolt is often actually going to do -more- damage to an opponent in many games, because in addition to killing their one-drop, you're also pinging them for one. It's basically like a Darkblast on steroids.

We are still playing a mana denial deck, which means their early KotR/GSZ-for-3 will be usually be in Daze-range, especially if you can kill their mana dorks.

In game 1 against Maverick, save your Force of Wills for Knights, Swords to Plowshares, and possibly SFM (assuming you don't have enough burn to deal with their equipment carriers). Burn kills pretty much everything else in their deck. And of course, Thoughtseize can pre-emptively kill whatever.

[Curby]

How would you tweak this deck to fight combo decks like ANT, Charbelcher, and High Tide? By the way, I'm using a lower land version without Hymn, since I can't guarantee BB in early turns.

I'm thinking of the following in the main:

4 Thoughtseize/Inquisition
4 Force of Will
3-4 Daze
3-4 Spell Pierce/Spell Snare

I'm thinking some combination of Chalice, Surgical Extraction, Pyrostatic Pillar, REB and either Mindbreak Trap or Flusterstorm in the side. I can probably devote 4-6 sideboard slots to combo because it's quite prevalent at my store.

[wcm8]

How would you tweak this deck to fight combo decks like ANT, Charbelcher, and High Tide? By the way, I'm using a lower land version without Hymn, since I can't guarantee BB in early turns.

I'm thinking of the following in the main:

4 Thoughtseize/Inquisition
4 Force of Will
3-4 Daze
3-4 Spell Pierce/Spell Snare

I'm thinking some combination of Chalice, Surgical Extraction, Pyrostatic Pillar, REB and either Mindbreak Trap or Flusterstorm in the side. I can probably devote 4-6 sideboard slots to combo because it's quite prevalent at my store.

If you check out my current list, you'll see that the deck is already pretty well situated against combo. But you could probably drop some of the Forked Bolts in the maindeck for Spell Pierces/Spell Snare/more discard.

The SB choices you outlined are ok, although I'm not so sure about Chalice -- are you planning on setting that to 0 to counter Storm? I would also look into playing Engineered Explosives and/or Pyroclasm somewhere in the 75 as a way to deal with Belcher's Empty the Warrens. Against High Tide, an additional REB would be good. Extirpate/Surgical Extraction are also useful against combo after you disrupt them a bit.

[Curby]

Not enough people at my local store tonight for an event, but I played against an unoptimized Affinity list. He was a decent player new to Legacy and to his deck; I was likewise new to my deck. Here was my first draft:

3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

4 Delver of Secrets
3 Dark Confidant
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique

4 Brainstorm
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Ponder
3 Spell Pierce
3 Stifle
2 Thoughtseize
3 Daze
2 Cunning Wish
4 Force of Will

Sideboard
2 Shattering Spree
2 Extirpate
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Echoing Truth
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Reanimate
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Smash to Smithereens


I've always been fascinated with Cunning Wish, so I tried to add a couple to see where it led me. He kept dropping Ethersworn Canonist and Grafdigger's Cage, which made both Wish and Snapcaster hard to use. I knew Wish was probably a bad idea due to the mana requirements, but I like toolbox designs and I was hoping that it would work. I'll probably make a more mana-intensive BUG or Esper control deck and try it there.

Also, Spell Pierce wasn't terribly useful, partially because Affinity allows him to not care about mana. Spell Snare would have hit Plating and Canonist, and while it misses a bunch of stuff as well, maybe it's worth the slots. Daze was pretty much useless in every game.

I'm pretty happy with the manabase. Keeping the black and red splashes rather light lets me cast pretty much anything any time. The fetch-heavy design helps keep Brainstorm and Ponder at the top of their game, though I wonder if -1 Ponder +1 Bob would make sense ... I'd rather draw things rather than just look at them.

I'm really digging the Unearth/Reanimate idea for the Cunning Wish slots. All my guys are tiny (tend to die), and Unearth>Clique>"discard" or Unearth>Snapcaster>Bolt/Brainstorm seem like ridiculously powerful plays for just 1-2 mana. If I can afford the life loss, I might run Reanimate to hit the opposing yard.

So I'll try:

-3 Pierce, +3 Snare
-2 Wish, +2 Unearth
-1 Inquisition, +1 Thoughtseize (With lower casting costs, hopefully I can afford the life loss of Thoughtseize)

The sideboard was partially built as a wishboard. Pending changes:

-1 Red Elemental Blast
-1 Diabolic Edict
+2 additional creature removal or burn
-1 Smash to Smithereens, +1 Shattering Spree
-1 Reanimate, +1 Echoing Truth

Something like Pyroclasm or Infest would have wrecked him. I'm pretty sure I can recover better than he can. I'd say replace Truths with sweepers, but those are there to deal with resolved enchantments and other things that Grixis would rather not have on the board but can't destroy directly.

With 25 maindeck cards that affect or depend on the top card of my deck, sculpting appropriately is a skill I'm going to have to work on a LOT. Most of my decks are single color (Stax, Merfolk, Death and Taxes, The Gate) or don't care about the top card as much (Zoo) so I haven't had much Brainstorm experience.

Anyway, tl;dr. Neat deck, needs work, I suck. Suggestions welcome.