[Deck] Burn

[Azel Orfat]

A Burn deck made top8 in Eternal Weekend (spanish tournament). Here is the list:
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...4&iddeck=50088

I guess he wanted to go well prepared against Batterskull. I hope to see more burn good results in next tournaments ^^

[Kanadell~]

I also did Top8 in a legacy league tournament in my city. I went undefeated all the 5 rounds, but I lost 2-1 vs Cephalid breakfast in the first match of the Top8.

BTW, Sulfuric vortex saved me from dying many times.

[Kanadell~]

I also did Top8 in a legacy league tournament in my city. I went undefeated all the 5 rounds, but I lost 2-1 vs Cephalid breakfast in the first match of the Top8.

BTW, Sulfuric vortex saved me from dying many times.

[NecroYawgmoth]

Yeah.... We are also testing and playing with Vortex in the main, the last month. Seems really good, and is better than most people think. [even if it costs 3]

About the creature-debate [Figure VS Kargan]: We don't think that any creature besides Marauders is good enough to be played in Burn.

[Kanadell~]

Yeah.... We are also testing and playing with Vortex in the main, the last month. Seems really good, and is better than most people think. [even if it costs 3]

About the creature-debate [Figure VS Kargan]: We don't think that any creature besides Marauders is good enough to be played in Burn.

Yes man, my metagame is full of Stoneforge + Jitte/Batterskull and Nighthawk vampire, and Sulfuric vortex was simply awesome vs that life gain decks, and also those 2 extra points per turn help a lot. I love this card.

And with Figure vs Kargan I'll stay with the figure cause it's a t1 drop and t2 you can't pump it, attack and bolt the opponent. I think FoD is better than Kargan but I'll test Kargan to see how it does.

[dontbiteitholmes]

As far as creatures in Burn go everyone is sleeping on Mogg Fanatic. Yes he got worse when they changed combat, but still he's never completely dead, he often swings multiple times when dropped turn 1, he kills several relevant creatures, he owns Bridge From Below, he doesn't throw away the game like Guide, and he can block Batterskull/Goyf/big dudes then sac, buying you that one extra turn / one extra draw you need to put the game away.

[paeng4983]

Have anyone tried to use Koth?

[dontbiteitholmes]

Have anyone tried to use Koth?

Way too slow. 4 mana is just not going to happen on turn 4 with this deck most of the time. Even if you do land Koth Goyf blocks 4/4's all day and good luck ever getting that ultimate off.

In all fairness, no I've never tested Koth in Legacy, I can just infer he's too slow.

There are several 3cmc spells I like that are almost always better than Koth anyways. They are Volcanic Fallout, FlameBreak, Sulfuric Vortex, and Ensnaring Bridge. Obviously you can't run all of them but they can all be back breaking vs. various good decks. I think the hardest part of making Burn work is picking the correct 3 drops. Very few people play Burn correctly or lists that are even close to good (see scgTN coverage if you don't know what I mean) The deck is not terrible by any means when built correctly in the right meta. Obviously you are a complete dog to Tendrils and High Tide can be pretty bad times, but if multicolored control decks, midrange decks, and aggro decks are the current flavor you should be just fine.

Burn built correctly is favorable vs. Merfolk, Goblins, Elves, BUg, Junk, Zoo, and any number of random decks. Proper MD/SB considerations can make UW 50-60%, but pretty much every other aggro deck should roll over to you.

[Matthias]

Burn vs Boros

Hi, there seems to be a thread about Boros burn, but it's quite outdated, so I'm asking myself whether this is because the addition of white would make the deck much worse. I thought the addition of white might be great as you can play Steppe Lynx, Helix and Path to Exile. Rough List:

4 Goblin Guide
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Keldon Marauder

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Chain Lightning
4 Path to Exile
4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress

4 Plateau
4 Mountain
4 Arid Mesa
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills

Is that any good? Or is this just a bad hybrid, slower than burn and with worse creatures than zoo?

[Kanadell~]

Burn vs Boros

Hi, there seems to be a thread about Boros burn, but it's quite outdated, so I'm asking myself whether this is because the addition of white would make the deck much worse. I thought the addition of white might be great as you can play Steppe Lynx, Helix and Path to Exile. Rough List:

4 Goblin Guide
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Keldon Marauder

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Chain Lightning
4 Path to Exile
4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress

4 Plateau
4 Mountain
4 Arid Mesa
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills

Is that any good? Or is this just a bad hybrid, slower than burn and with worse creatures than zoo?

It is obviously competitive, i've seen many decks like that one you're posting. And also many of them include Taigas for tarmos, kirds and Wild nacatl.
And for Koth no one has tested it at least in burn (some Dragon Stompy decks actually run it) 'cause by turn 4 you'll have already won or have the opponent to 5-8 life so you can kill him turn 5. If this does not happen you'll probably lose that game so Koth is not needed in a burn deck 'cause it's not a damage source by itself and it can be easily dazed. Sulfuric vortex is muuuch better in that slot since it can save you from any life-gain source (like jittes) and does 2 damage per turn if it goes unanswered.

[Cire]

Did anyone ever try something like this?

20 Lands
20 Bolt spells (including bump in the night)
4 Probe
4 Mana morph
4 Street Wraith
4 Goblin Guide
2 Fireblast
2 Price of Progress

It would seem pretty solid at first glance, but since i'm not a burn player i'm curious why this list would suffer in practice?

[Sims]

Did anyone ever try something like this?

20 Lands
20 Bolt spells (including bump in the night)
4 Probe
4 Mana morph
4 Street Wraith
4 Goblin Guide
2 Fireblast
2 Price of Progress

It would seem pretty solid at first glance, but since i'm not a burn player i'm curious why this list would suffer in practice?

the concept of a "bauble burn" deck has been around for a while. When Mishra's bauble was first released, people figured that running 8 free cantrips would enable you to run just the bread and butter burn spells and you'd be fine, but in practice it failed pretty horribly due to the fact that the cantrips were delayed and it made mulligan desicions much harder.

Do you keep this hand when you're on the draw?

Mountain, Fetch, fireblast, rift bolt, bolt, chain, lava spike.

What if that hand is-

mountain, fetch, fireblast, bolt, 3x cyclers.

Is it still a safe keep? We can't gaurantee those cyclers will find business and not land or more cyclers. With some of those costing life or in the case of manamorphose costing 2 mana to get going, it's difficult to gauge how productive that hand can be.

It didn't really work then with the baubles, I don't see it working now as the cyclers still can't gaurantee you the gas you need when you need it as opposed to just running more burn in those slots.

[ThoSha]

The only build who is justified to run that many cantrips includes Kiln Fiend.
Its a nice sideplan to have double use from your bolts, so you can bolt opposing creatures and still swing for 15. But i guess i dont have to mention how horrible a single removalspell kills this gameplan. Not even mentioning consistency.

[Kanadell~]

The only build who is justified to run that many cantrips includes Kiln Fiend.
Its a nice sideplan to have double use from your bolts, so you can bolt opposing creatures and still swing for 15. But i guess i dont have to mention how horrible a single removalspell kills this gameplan. Not even mentioning consistency.

Even with Kiln Fiend they're not worth to include. Baubleburn is a suboptimal build and Kiln Fiend is not that good. Grim lavamancer and goblin guide are better creatures by far.

[Cire]

I understand the problem of Baubles specifically, but I don't think the immediate cantrips would work the same way. For example the build I posted could be equated to

20 Land
20 Lightning Bolts
12 Cantrips
8 (special cards: lets just say these cards are burn for now)

As such if I see a a cantrip in my opening hand I can treat it a 2/5th land & 3/5th burn...for the purposes of making easy calculations I would simply treat 1 cycle as a land or Burn : treating it unfavorably in context to the rest of my hand in order to make the safest choice. 2 cycles would roughly be 1 land and 1 Burn. 3 cycles would be 1 land 2 burn. Or at least how I'll treat them in my opening hand mulligan choices

so for your examples I would simply see them as

Mountain, Fetch, fireblast, rift bolt, bolt, chain, lava spike. (2 lands, 5 Burn)

mountain, fetch, fireblast, bolt, 3x cyclers. (3 lands, 4 burn)

Would you keep 3 lands and 4 burn... probably IMO so i'll keep that hand...


Regardless I differ to your opinions since this is simply theory and that is no substitute for practice and experience

[Azel Orfat]

I want to return playing this deck (I basically abandoned it because I hated MM xD) so I wanted to ask you about some points because I've been a little disconnected about Legacy during last months. I was very happy with Sullivan's list: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...3&iddeck=42252 but I don't know if it would require some adaptation because it was a Pre New Phyrexia list.

I almost didn't test against Stoneblade so I wanted to ask you about the matchup. I guess we need to ensure killing the Mystic and even if we get it, it will be difficult to be consistent/fast enough to win before they can get the Batterskull activated due to their counterwall. I think that Sulfuric Vortex would be a great card here (in fact probably the best answer to this deck). One of my problems is the mana base. I don't want more than 20 lands and I think that we can't play Vortex with consistency with just 20 lands. I really think that it's a very powerful card but I find it difficult to fit in the list, even in side. Also, I guess that it's not great to mix it with Flame Rift and I agree with Sullivan about the problems with Daze/Spell Pierce on 3cost cards (and now with MM out, Daze and Spell Pierce will surely see lot of play).

What cards would you board in against Stoneblade? I think that REB would be fine in this pairing, now even more with Snapcaster. It could help to ensure killing the Mystic. Besides, we don't have too many spells that can target creatures so I think that Searing Blaze could be worth. Also I suppose that some artifact removal would be also needed to have some chance if we can't avoid Batteskull comes into play.

I also have doubts about the number of fetchlands. I like to play with more than 8 but now stifle decks seem to be rising. Anyway, I think that they used to board them out against us, so I suppose that it's not a problem.

About the metagame, I hope that with blue decks on top, the field gets rebalanced decreasing combo decks and appearing again aggro decks like Zoo and Goblins that are good pairings for us. Or maybe it's just my wish xD

[Curby]

@Cire you don't really understand the problems of cantrips. You just can't get around the problems of blind mulligans. If you get a single land and two cantrips, will that cantrip into the perfect 2-3 land hand? Will you be stranded on 1 mana for the first five turns? You have no idea what you're actually keeping or throwing away. You could be safe and just throw out "dangerous" hands, but then you're starting with a lower average hand size, and throwing out the benefit of running cantrips in the first place (get rid of chaff and only run the highest density of top tier spells).

Burn's got enough gas now that it doesn't really need baubles anyway. There's enough usable burn/creatures that you can fill the slots.

[Curby]

@Cire you don't really understand the problems of cantrips. You just can't get around the problems of blind mulligans. If you get a single land and two cantrips, will that cantrip into the perfect 2-3 land hand? Will you be stranded on 1 mana for the first five turns? You have no idea what you're actually keeping or throwing away. You could be safe and just throw out "dangerous" hands, but then you're starting with a lower average hand size, and throwing out the benefit of running cantrips in the first place (get rid of chaff and only run the highest density of top tier spells).

Burn's got enough gas now that it doesn't really need baubles anyway. There's enough usable burn/creatures that you can fill the slots.

[ThoSha]

I want to return playing this deck (I basically abandoned it because I hated MM xD) so I wanted to ask you about some points because I've been a little disconnected about Legacy during last months. I was very happy with Sullivan's list: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...3&iddeck=42252 but I don't know if it would require some adaptation because it was a Pre New Phyrexia list.

I almost didn't test against Stoneblade so I wanted to ask you about the matchup. I guess we need to ensure killing the Mystic and even if we get it, it will be difficult to be consistent/fast enough to win before they can get the Batterskull activated due to their counterwall. I think that Sulfuric Vortex would be a great card here (in fact probably the best answer to this deck). One of my problems is the mana base. I don't want more than 20 lands and I think that we can't play Vortex with consistency with just 20 lands. I really think that it's a very powerful card but I find it difficult to fit in the list, even in side. Also, I guess that it's not great to mix it with Flame Rift and I agree with Sullivan about the problems with Daze/Spell Pierce on 3cost cards (and now with MM out, Daze and Spell Pierce will surely see lot of play).

What cards would you board in against Stoneblade? I think that REB would be fine in this pairing, now even more with Snapcaster. It could help to ensure killing the Mystic. Besides, we don't have too many spells that can target creatures so I think that Searing Blaze could be worth. Also I suppose that some artifact removal would be also needed to have some chance if we can't avoid Batteskull comes into play.

I also have doubts about the number of fetchlands. I like to play with more than 8 but now stifle decks seem to be rising. Anyway, I think that they used to board them out against us, so I suppose that it's not a problem.

About the metagame, I hope that with blue decks on top, the field gets rebalanced decreasing combo decks and appearing again aggro decks like Zoo and Goblins that are good pairings for us. Or maybe it's just my wish xD

I share your opinion. Right now burn seems to be viable again, and i also chose the sullivan list. It doesnt really need updates i think, i've been doing fine with the exact list in the new snapcaster meta and im certainly bringing this deck to GP Amsterdam. It just wins games in 5-10 minutes and is that much fun to play.

The only thing i thought of was running maybe 4 blasts less for some pyrostatic pillars, because they are a beating on high tide and storm. Still not sure how this will work out, but in testing 4 blasts were enough for the blue decks.

[Azel Orfat]

@ThoSha: You can also consider Tormod's Crypt in those slots. Reanimator is a DTB right now and maybe with REB+Tormod you could have some chance. It could also help if you face some Past in Flames based deck. I think it could also be worth against Ill-Gotten Gains and of course against Dredge.

Good luck at the GP, I hope you get a good result with Burn ^^