Grave Titan was explored when Goblins and other tribal decks were more popular but was still questionably subpar. Since Elesh Norn's printing, I think she is the best out against Tribal/swarms. You don't need Grave Titan outside of tribal since you rather have a faster dude or Ancestor's Chosen against fast combo, and Iona/shroud dudes/Terrastadon/slow-rick-roll with Ichorids/zombies against control.
Decks that I care about:
Steel Stompy
UWx Landstill
Dreadstalker
DDFT (10% practice)
Mangara on MWS? You must be masochistic. -kiblastOriginally Posted by Gheizen64
@ Golden Kid:
As for any other DR target he would only be winmore in the Maindeck and I can't see him in the Sideboard either, as we have acces to a hole bunch of dudes, who are slightly superior.
@ Vandalize:
I like your approach with Brainstorm ( you didn't cut 4 Studys for 4 Brainstorms as many other have done befor), but I have some mixed feelings towards the card.
I'll just point out why I personal feel that the card don't belong in the deck, but I hope that you'll give some good reasons to run them in return.
-BS doesn't let us discard cards. Now you have allready mentioned that your list runs a good amount of discard, a fact that can't be dissmissed, but I seems to me that you have forgoten that we'll take some mulligans from time to time. BS is basicly a dead card in your hand if you don't have anything in the grave.
This can also be important after they blowed away our graveyard in G2 if we don't have a permanent discardoutlet outside. With Study we can start allover again, yet with BS we don't have so much luck.
Take also in credit that if you fail to find another dredger while you dredge with Brainstorm you are in quite a bad position.
-You talked about playing BS for its instant speed against Decks running Daze/FoW to protect your Breakthrough, but if you play against Tempo while you are afraid of Daze (i.e. if you have only 1 land) they'll probably waste it anyways befor you are able to cast your Breakthrough in your next mainphase. If this would be the case (i.e. they waste your land in their turn) then you also can't play the Brainstorm save, do to the fact that you might just run blindly into a Crypt.
( Btw on a sidenote: I've talked with some Canadian Thresh players and they all said that Delver of Secrets doesn't belong in the deck. Now I'm certainly not qualiefied enough to give a good reason on my own to the subject, but while playing against Canadian with other decks I've allways hated Moongose for the fact that they have shroud and not for their body size. Delver actually doesn't seem so scary).
Then again I can also see many scenarios where BS is really a hell of a card, but most of them just seem like magic christmas land to me (or basicly scenarios where I'd win with a Study aswell).
I don't think that Hokus (did he made first or second place at BoM with Dredge?) needs to copycat stuff from Feldman :S.Perhaps, you could give them a try before dismissing them, or just because some "pro" guy said it sucks, as you usually do (Oh, hi there Feldman Copycats!).
Also keep in mind that the deck isn't a new invention and almost everything has been tryed out so far, including Brainstorm.
Our music means nothing, except for what it means to
you.
First,I did not participate at BoM. You are referring to Erik Hegeman,Brot ohne Kruste on this Forum he postet his results on here.
Second, I do not at all consider Feldman "pro". I read his article and think it sucks.Hard.
But yeah, I most certainly don't copy Feldman's lists. And I played this deck years before the article.
Third, I might seem a bit arrogant on this behalf. Dredge was called the German deck before for a reason. Genious deck designers(concerning dredge) live in my state. Also, it is my Pet-Deck. I tested almost every card I could imagine in this deck, also Brainstorm.
And this card just does not make the cut at all because of the above mentioned reasons.
This man is a truthspeaker! You deserve a beer - if you see me in Ghent, you may present yourself to me as The Speaker of Truths and I will buy you a beer of choice
I wasn't harassing you HokusSchmokus, I was just pinpointing for dudes that can't really try things, and just take the lists from other guys. Sorry if I was misunterstood. I really can't stand some: "I'll play Feldman's list next tourney, bla bla bla."
@Brainstorm,
The card has worked better in the DDD list with Phantasmagorian and stuff, because it speed up the combo, and took Street Wraith's spot in the deck.
The DDD list doesn't activate Cephalid Coliseum turn 2, and it's rare to happen on turn 3, so Brainstorm allowed me to dredge further into the deck, AND allowed some tricks and as countermagic bait.
Still, I've tested more in the 8-dork list, and it showed up some nice results so far. I don't know if it was luck, but I had 2 games where I was able to block through lethal Goyf + Clique swing by dredging instant speed and blocking with Narcomoebas, followed by an Elesh Norn reanimation next turn.
Careful Study is the weakest link in the 8-dork list (because I can't play with less than 12 dredgers). So, if I was supposed to cut 2 cards to give Brainstorm a chance, it would be the 15th land and 1 CS. And it has worked fine so far, but I'll test it a little more to find a conclusion.
Let your Dredge 6 be: Narco, Narco, Narco, Bridge, Bridge, Dread Return
I can mostly see where you're coming from, but I agree with Hokus that Brainstorm is not an option, at least not in the 8 dork list. It could have a chance in 4eaks Hybrid list over Street Wraith, but not in the traditional LEDless build. That list is just at a point where it doesn't want/need any further draw effects beyond the usual 12. The decklist is way too tight. And aside from that, Brainstorm doesn't discard, which is much more of a deal than you seem to admit.
As of cutting Careful Study... I can absolutely understand where that idea comes from. I've thought like that as well when I wasn't as expierienced with the desk as I am now. Careful Study is worse than the dorks as discard outlet. It's worse than the other 8 daw spells as ... well, draw spell. So why not cut it. I have tested like 10 things in those slots and I can tell you that I'll never do that again. Careful Study is just the glue that keeps the deck together, playing multiple roles in a deck that needs certain pieces in order to work. You can test it of course, but personally I'll never play any less than 4 copies in any Dredge list I'lll ever build, I think.
@Hokus: Doh!, my bad :S.
Our music means nothing, except for what it means to
you.
The tournament yesterday had only 8 players so I couldn't really be bothered doing a proper play-by-play report
I couldn't get a 2nd elesh norn so I put a terastodon in instead because the guy who gave me a lift there was playing enchantress (bad mu I think)
Round 1 I bet enchantress (lol)
Game 1 he punted hugely because he played a city of solitude (he had no enchantress effect out and obviously it doesn't affect me at all) so when I therapy him he can't respond with his enlightened tutor, I make him discard it so he can't search for elephant grass / moat and I kill him
Game 2 he says "Pre game action?" and im like fuck but his leyline is white, not black (good thing i side out 2 therapies for angel and teradon). He puts permanents on the board and multiple sterling groves mean I can't deal with his multiple lock pieces with terastodon or angel of despair
Game 3 He has the white leyline again but I took out my 2 other therapies for winds of change. I just make a 10/10 troll on turn 2 and he can't deal with it
Round 2 I lost to merfolk
Game 1 My turn 1 Putrid imp gets dazed (should I have tried to play around this?). I get back in the game and I am winning the war of attrition despite him having a jitte but very late in the game he has nothing in hand or on board except lands and aether vial, next turn my ichorid will kill him but he topdecks a coralhelm to block it and I deck out :(
In this game I was milling my black creatures in awkward clumps so I had to feed Ichorids to other ichorids, maybe if I just waited until I mill more Imps and thugs then I can mount more of an offense later in the game but I'm not sure
It's also possible that I should have stopped dredging earlier, live and learn
Game 2 I'm in a good position but it goes to time so I lose the match 1-0
In one of the games I he played a tormod's crypt and it was the only grave hate I saw all day
Round 3 I lost to zoo
Game 1 was forgettable, we both mulled a lot and I guess he just got there
Game 2 I win with an elesh norn
Game 3 I win next turn with an elesh norn but with me on very low life he just topdecks a burn spell and I die (his only other card in hand was a basic forest) (admittedly he did have sylvan library)
I made another couple of misplays against the zoo player, not making elesh norn as early as i could have in one of the games and when he alpha strike with 2 kird apes and a pridemage and a goyf, i block all his guys with thugs and zombies thinking it doesnt really matter (it's all chump blocks anyway). But I put the thug in front of the pridemage and before damage he sacs his pridemage to kill his own sylvan library, which kills my bridges and means my thug doesnt die so I can't put my narcomoeba on top. (The other thug eats a path to exile)
It was a good learning experience and the new store that it was at is very spacious and the owner is very nice (Baydragon Botany, if anybody here is from auckland)
I tested some post SB games against a high tide player after and Winds of Change is definitely MVP if you draw it
The meta was
1 Elves
1 Dredge
1 Junk
1 Fish
1 High Tide
1 Zoo
1 Enchantress
1 Other (Not sure)
I'm considering maining an Elesh Norn
Against creature decks it's just a complete blow out
Against non-creature decks it's fine because it's like a double FKZ
I dont understand the hate for copying lists off other people
Seeing something on starcity and thinking 'oh yeah that seems ok, Ill give it a go' isn't really any different to seeing a suggestion here and thinking 'oh yeah, that's worth a try'
As you can probably tell by the 8-man turnout legacy isn't the biggest format over here so you rarely have an opportunity to test against others except during the actual events (or like 5 minutes before they start)
Ill probably play the same list in the next event because I want to try it properly with the second elesh norn
Also I feel like I can't play the deck properly as it is so I might as well get some more practise in before I make any changes I don't appreciate the impact of
What do you guys think about Probe vs Wraith in the 4eak's hybrid list?
Probe has a great synergy with therapy, but can be countered and doesnt feed Ichorids
EDIT:
I guess it depends on the meta. On a Storm decks meta Probe could be better than SW even despite Wraith beeing a draw spell and fueling the dredge/timewalk us a round; but in a control enviroment, for sure, the SW has the edge...
Last edited by Godmode; 10-05-2011 at 01:39 PM.
The whole point of Street Wraith in his hybrid list was the uncounterable part. The Ichorid food was a pretty relevant bonus.
Probe is nice with Therapy, but if you pratice, and have a little knowledge of what's happening in the Legacy metagame, you shouldn't really need Probe make Therapy a beast. Just pratice against several decks and you'll see.
It isn't that hard, FoW/Daze/Swords to Plowshares are common targets due to protection for my Ichorids/Dread Returns. Still Batterskull and Natural Order are other silly victims of CT.
Let your Dredge 6 be: Narco, Narco, Narco, Bridge, Bridge, Dread Return
I disagree, having a 100% chance to hit is always better then any other percentage. Knowing what creature to name against Team America or naming Lion's Eye Diamond/Infernal Tutor/Burning Wish against TES can be the difference in winning or loosing the game.
.Benie.
I playtested a few games against Team America and I have mixed feelings. If they’re on the play a turn one thoughtseize can either take your discard outlets (dorks) or it can take your gas like breakthrough and or careful study. Cards like stifle are pretty bad too because they can stifle your coliseum triggers.
They run a slew of removal spells in GFTT and smother to either remove their own creatures against your bridges or simply destroy your narcomoebas/Ichorids at the upkeep before you’re able to utilize them in your mainphase. After its all said and done you find yourself slow dredging against them which doesn’t cut it when they’re building up FOWs, Daze, and stifles for your narc triggers..
Which was another thing I forgot to mention. These decks still run Wasteland to keep you off the coliseum or make it difficult to cast anything without running into daze. Battling the deck seems like an uphill battle.
Played in a small tourney this week, so here we go with a short report:
Do to my lack of being creative I simply picked up my usual list with a little sideboard change:
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Colliuseum
3 Tarnish Citadell
4 Purtrid Imp
2 Tireless Tribe
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
4 Golgaria Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
1 Darkblast
3 Firestorm
2 Dread Return
3 Carefull Study
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
Side:
4 Ancient Grudge
4 Natures Claim
1 Ray of Revelation
4 Winds of Change
1 Iona, Shield of the Emeria
1 Terrastodon
Round 1: UWb Thopter Combo
G1: I win the die roll and start with a PImp, followed by a Cephalid Colliuseum. Triple Therapy later I was able to sculp most of his hand and produce enough zombies in the process to finish with the next attack.
I know that he runs E.Tutor and Relics+ Wheel of Sun and Moon, so I board as followed:
-1 DR, -3 Firestorm, -1 Darkblast, -2 Study, +3 Grudge, +3 Claim, +1 Ray
G2: I keep a strong hand with 3 Lands, Ancient Grudge, 2 Trolls and a Breakthrough. The DDD plan fails do to his turn 2 Relic, however simply force him to activate it in response to my Grudge, then discard via Breakthrough and activate Colliuseum to go nuts.
Round 2:Old school Rock (feat. Reccuring Nightmare)
G1: Once again I can start with a permanent discardoutlet (only this time its a Tribe), while he blindly aims a Therapy at me, but fails to snipe away my draw spells. Long story short: 13 Zombies and a 16/16 Troll eat his face on turn 3.
Once again I know what he will board (playing in a local tourney for a while has some benefits^^).
-1 Thug, -1 Dr, -1 Study, -1 Tribe + 4 Winds of Change
Boarding Winds against Rock, am I stupid ? Well I knew that his hate only contains 4 Extiraptes, so I just wanted to produces as many preasure as fast as possible.
G2: The game can be described in one sentence: Winds of Change for 6.
Round 3:Merfolk
G1: He gets some early preassure and I'm forced to slow dredge, because I got only 1 lone City of Brass and I don't want to run my PImp into Daze and my lone land into a Wasteland. However I'm lucky enough to get some Therapys early on (losing only 1 Bridge to Cursecatcher, wich is acceptable in my eyes) to sculp his hand down to 1 Daze and some flesh. Yet I still needed to fill my grave again, in order to keep on beating with Ichorids, so I used DR to get back a Tribe and simply beat him with Ichorids and Zombies.
Boarding:
+4 Ancient Grudge, -1 Thug, -1 Study, -1 DR, -1 Tribe
G2: He kept a very aggressive hand, with Vial and 3 Lords, but with no hate except for a lonely Jitte, while I just looked at the 2 Firestorms in my hand and smiled. Again long story short: Firestorm fried his fish, a flashbacked Grudge got rid of his Jitte and my zombie horde did it once again.
Round4: Canadian Thresh
We simply I.D. to ensure place 1/2, but play it out, as he wanted to test for Amsterdam
G1: I mull down to 5 on the draw, yet with quite a decent hand, containing Firestorm, 2xTroll, City and Study.As I din't draw anything relevant, I simply discard via Firestorm eot and proceed to drege, but unfortunately both Trolls are unable to bring any friends to the party so I can't really do anything else, ecept watching how I get eaten by a pair of Nimble Mongose.
Boarding:
-1 Dr, -1 Darkblast, -1 Study, -1 Firestorm +4 Ancient Grudge
G2: My first PImp gets Forced, but I'm still able to discard via Study. An early Crypt on his side forces me again to blow it up with Ancient Grudge (loosing nothing really important in the process), leaving me again with an emtpy grave. Meanwhile a lone Mongose had started to chip away my life. As I didn't wanted to wait untill I could discard again I simply ramped to 3 Mana and hardcasted a Stinkweed Imp, blocking his attack for a while. Shortly after I'm able to discard via Firestorm and just go nuts via Colliuseum.
G3: This game was even more painfull then G1, as he just has everything (including a playset Daze, 2 Goyfs, multiple Stifle and so on..). Well thats how it goes, sometimes you simply get crushed ;).
Our music means nothing, except for what it means to
you.
Hi!
What criteria are you following to side?, i mean, i usually know what cards i have to side but i have problems to decide what cards i must cut, i'm currently playing Ian Rogerson's version from Gen Con Legacy Champs, so i have Iona in the maindeck and 4 firestorm in the side, i usually cut 4 study for 4 firestorm, and a maximum of 2 cabals against aggro decks like Goblins -i don't want to cut 4 because i need some to kill my narcos and generate zombies-, but against other decks? In wich pairs is allright to cut one DR?
Why you prefer to have 1 darkblast over Iona in the maindeck?.
I'm surpised with winds of change, in which pairs you side it?, what is exactly the function?.
Thanks! ^^
Last edited by Sigyn; 10-08-2011 at 02:04 PM.
You prefer the 1 DB in the main because its an additional dredger. How many times have you needed to dredge and the lowly DB got you there. Its happened. If that was Iona you'd be sitting there twiddling your thumbs.
Winds of change was brought up by Richard Feldman if not by anyone else before him and they're basically your Breakthrough 7-8. You usually bring in the Winds against faster combo decks so the chances of opening an explosive hand are higher with more "breakthroughs". Also the added benefit is that you get to screw with your opponents hand while they're trying to sculpt their combo.
I actually ended up cutting Winds. It was only ever brought in against other combo and I usually didn't see it. I'd just prefer having additional slots dedicated to something else. Plus against other combos I could still go off before they did. I've beaten Hive Mind, TES, and the Mirror Dredge in tourneys before. those matchups aren't completely horrible.
Last edited by Que; 10-08-2011 at 04:18 PM.
I see... thanks for the answer!, do you usually beat Hive Mind or TES in G1? I think playing against TES is a bit hard without going as fast as possible and DR Iona.
I also found really hard playing against reanimator, what do you think about it?
Any more developments or feedback on this or similar lists?
I've settled on Putrid Imp in the main. My SB has changed:
// Sideboard
SB: 3 Tireless Tribe
SB: 3 Ancient Grudge
SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 2 Ray of Revelation
SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
SB: 1 Ancestor's Chosen
Again, I'm still drawing in all games (assuming my opponent lets me). I'm DDDing in most of them.
G1, I focus on speed and consistency.
Against combo, G2 and G3 I keep the same focus, but with a slight drop in consistency for DR targets.
Against [permission and GY-Hate] or [Leyline or Wheel], G2 and G3 I focus on consistency and resilience to GY-hate. Most of the draw spells are sided out.
Against everything else, G2 and G3 I focus mostly on speed and consistency, with light-answers to GY-hate.
peace,
4eak
Depends on your list. The more consistent dredge build with no dedicated DR targets in the main will most likely have a rough time against Hive Mind and TES G1. Of course this is curtailed by your ability to hit cabal therapy blind. Its huge against those types of decks.
The greedier dredge build with Sphinx of Lost Truths and Flame-Kin main have the ability to win straight out turn 2. And I actually mean turn 2. None of this zombie horde with giant grave troll turn 3 and then passing the turn. In my current metagame infested with combo I have actually opted for the greedier build.
Reanimator is a difficult matchup I'm not going to lie. They have counter magic and a reanimated Elesh Norm means curtains. Of course I'd like to get in more games against the deck
I think this list (4 Phantas, 4 Putrid Imps) could be the way to go for the future, At least in metagames where you expect a lot of control and few combo. In my testings I was very pleased with the Phantasmagorian list, but as soon as I faced Combo decks like storm, I saw that I just have to play first against those. We're almost as fast as they are, so if we manage to play twice in the match we can very well win the match. If we always draw, we can just pray for them having to mull into oblivion.
That being said, I returned to the pre-MM list for a combo heavier metagame, which means -4 Phantas, -1 Dredger, +4 Tireless Tribe, +1 Land in comparison to the hybrid list.
The sideoard should always contain 3-4 Grudges, 4 Claims plus 1-2 more Leyline removal and a few utility DR targets.
I think Reanimator is about as close as we can get to an autoloss. I have found it to be a very tough MU. Only winning with luck, like them mullin to four.
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