To be fair, Jace 2.0 is quite a problem for Lands, mainly due to its ultimate. That's why a lot of list run stuff like Creeping Tar Pit. However, in my experience, the best you can do/try is to keep them off of 4 mana in the first place.
Still, having played Lands for quite a long time, I advise against playing it if you really want to do well in big tournaments (especially talking about GP Amsterdam here). It's not even all that much about the abysmal combo matchup but about the deck itself. You can easily dominate local metagames with it but at a GP you'll want a more reliable deck that doesn't depend as much on its oppening hand as Lands does. Wasteland, Port, Mox, Exploration, Intuition, Fetchland, Tolaria West looks pretty fine but once your opponent counters the Intuition you're basically in topdeck mode.
(All this applies to the standard UG(b/w) version of Lands)
Still, Lands will always be the deck to have the most fun with. It's like a giant puzzle you half to solve: super challenging but providing a very rewarding feeling when you manage to get yourself out of a sticky situation over the course of like 10 turns.
The seven cardinal sins of Legacy:
1. Discuss the unbanning ofLand TaxEarthcraft.
2. Argue that banning Force of Will would make the format healthier.
3. Play Brainstorm without Fetchlands.
4. Stifle Standstill.
5. Think that Gaea's Blessing will make you Solidarity-proof.
6. Pass priority after playing Infernal Tutor.
7. Fail to playtest against Nourishing Lich (coZ iT wIlL gEt U!).
What about Horn of greed to get rid of Topdeck mode?? Or minimize it?
We don't want the opponents to get extra draws though.Originally Posted by GoldenCid
I do agree with Julian though. The problem is my meta game isn't as large as GP, but the players are quite good. That is the main place I play so I want to make Lands good enough/become good enough playing it to do well there. If I can't, there doesn't seem to be a point owning all the cards for it.
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the best card that hasn't been considered yet is brainstorm.
Why would a deck like Lands want to play brainstorm though? If its in our opening hand or we draw it early awesome, but once we have the Loam going, it just gets dredged and takes up space in our list. Through out my time playing this deck I have found it very hard to cut cards from it. You don't want the Land count to get too low and you want to make sure you can get the Loam engine running with an exploration or manabond. So there is now way I could find spots to run brainstorm
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4 Fetches
3 Tropical Island
2 Taiga
1 Forest
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Porn
4 Maze of Ith
1 Tabernacle
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Chasm
1 Academy Ruins
1 Raging Ravine
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Riftstone Portal
1 Karakas/Tormod's Crypt (Meta call, this)
2 Tranquil Thicket
3 Tolaria West
4 Mox Diamond
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Zuran Orb
1 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Burning Wish
3 Life from the Loam
4 Brainstorm
4 Exploration
3 Manabond
Relevant Wish Targets:
Loam
Devastating Dreams
Hull Breach
Worm Harvest
Brainstorm has been the nuts like 70-85% of the time it resolved, either finding loam/burning wish, acceleration or tolaria west for the second half of a soft lock combo (tabernacle/maze, ee/ruins). Also, brainstorm with manabond is silly, as is brainstorming into mox diamond. Also, 1 land + multiple mox + brainstorm + wish/loam. NUTS.
lastly, complaining about dredging away brainstorm is like complaining about dredging away intuition. It's pointless and inevitably going to happen. Part of playing the deck.
Wasn't Enlightened Tutor the next big thing in Monolands control? Or I'm missing something?
Any reason to play Raging Ravine over a Creeping Tar Pit? Also how has Cephalid Colosseum been?
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Ravine taps for both green and red--a lot better than tapping for blue and black--and that is relevant at times, mainly for casting Wish into Devastating Dreams. Cephalid has been alright thus far, though I must say that the greastest value I've gotten from it is the fact that it simply taps for U. the added ability is really gravy on top of that.
Last edited by Antonius; 09-28-2011 at 05:15 AM.
So say you cut Cephalid what would you run? Think Tar Pit could take that spot?
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Do you think that burning wish and brainstorm are better than intuition?
I got to test Brainstorm in an - albeit small - tourney recently and like the results so far. Your topdecks get way better, making it easier to keep a hand like 6 lands, enchantment (which I would really like to keep with this deck).
I was not running Burning Wish, though - in RUG the targets are not all that appealing to me. I would love to have access to Perish or Redistribution of the Meek, an answer to Planeswalkers or something like that.
My list was:
36 land, 4 mox
4 brainstorm
4 loam
3 intuition
4 exploration
3 manabond
1 ee
1 zuran orb
I actually think that running burning wish isn't a bad idea, but I actually took that list and cut Cephalid Coliseum for a Bayou to open up having black in the sideboard. Dark Confidant is just nutty in the board
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Creeping Tar Pit + Kessig Wolf Run seems nice.
Should I say Inkmoth Nexus?
Man, I took a break from Magic for a few months, and things done changed. What happened to Enlightened Tutor? Why is Brainstorm of interest when we already have more Intuition and/or Top? In particular - how can the deck consistently stabilize in the first few turns if you have no tutoring in the form of Intuition or Enlightened Tutor? Sticking a lock piece early in the game is crucial in a lot of matchups.
As for Inkmoth Nexus/Kessig Wolf Run, I really like the idea, as I actually don't like black very much at all and would prefer to cut Tar Pit and black entirely. Out of the board, it offers Confidant and that's about it. I think that, especially in the white versions of the decks that rely more on bullet lands and artifacts (some of which have casting costs that actually hurt when Bob flips them - e.g. Smokestack), having quick tutoring in the form of Knight of the Reliquary is better from the board. Wolf Run/Nexus also offers a much faster way to end the game than the usual Mindslaver/Tar Pit/Factory tricks, which has been a perennial annoyance for this deck.
Next, what about Buried Ruin? There was chatter about it when M12 came out, and I think it's a great companion to Academy Ruins. It makes the deck able to dredge more aggressively, and sets up pretty interesting Intuition piles, especially against slower, more controlling decks (e.g. Buried Ruin/Crucible of Worlds/Life from the Loam)
Finally, I've found mana consistency to be an issue with the 4 and 5 color versions of the deck. I think the most promising build is a GUw configuration that plays the Enlightened Tutor package, as well as Kessig Wolf Run and Inkmoth Nexus, with Wolf Run being the only thing not being green, blue, or white. To activate Wolf Run, I would probably rely on Mox Diamond and possible one Taiga, although I might not even run the Taiga as the deck is usually able to stick one Diamond over the course of the game. This is something I'm going to try start testing.
I'm not sure what happened to the advocates of E.Tutor - I was never much of a fan. I thought Tutor - at least in those lists that cut Intuition/Manabond to make room for Tutor/Artifacts - makes finding Loam very hard. I never wanted to keep any hand without Loam because you might easiliy simply never find one.
Brainstorm on the other hand finds both Loam/Enchantment and is less clunky than Intuition (which you still run) - in my first try at it, I cut the 4th Intuition, 4th Manabond and two situational artifacts (Ensnaring Bridge and Oblivion Stone) for the Brainstorms. I guess situations will come up where not having the artifacts is bad - a resolved Progenitus comes to mind. But there will be situations as well where being able to execute your plan A (Loam/Enchantment) better will lead to winning -- I'm not sure which situation will be more common, yet.
What are the advantages of Buried Ruin over Academy Ruins (or of having both over just one)? If you're blue anyway, I like Academy Ruins' not needing a landdrop for every recursion better than Buried Ruins' not needing a draw.
I'm not sure whether I like the Wolf Run idea. You get to convert every spare mana into x-3 points of power. For this you need to be red and run a colorless do-nothing-land.
That brings me to the 'open land slot' question. For me, the following are obligatory:
4 Maze, Tabernacle, Chasm
4 Port, 4 Waste, Ghost Quarter
4 Fetch, 3 Tropical Island, Forest
3 Tolaria West, 3 Tranquil Thicket
Academy Ruins, Karakas (?)
which leaves you with 5 slots (given 36 land) in which I run:
Bayou, Creeping Tar Pit, 3 Mishra's Factory
I guess you could do: Taiga, Wolf Run, 3 Inkmoth Nexus - but I think this looks worse both defensively against decks where you want to block (Merfolk, Goblins, to some extend Zoo) and Planeswalkers. The increase in game ending speed looks rather marginal, too.
I'm not sure what happened to the advocates of E.Tutor - I was never much of a fan. I thought Tutor - at least in those lists that cut Intuition/Manabond to make room for Tutor/Artifacts - makes finding Loam very hard. I never wanted to keep any hand without Loam because you might easily simply never find one.
Brainstorm on the other hand finds both Loam/Enchantment and is less clunky than Intuition (which you still run) - in my first try at it, I cut the 4th Intuition, 4th Manabond and two situational artifacts (Ensnaring Bridge and Oblivion Stone) for the Brainstorms. I guess situations will come up where not having the artifacts is bad -- a resolved Progenitus comes to mind. But there will be situations as well where being able to better execute your plan A (Loam/Enchantment) will lead to winning -- I'm not sure which situation will be more common, yet.
What are the advantages of Buried Ruin over Academy Ruins (or of having both over just one)? If you're blue anyway, I like Academy Ruins' not needing a landdrop for every recursion better than Buried Ruins' not needing a draw.
I'm not sure whether I like the Wolf Run idea. You get to convert every spare mana into X-3 points of power. For this you need to be red and run a colorless do-nothing-land. I tend to never have much mana to spare anyway -- between Ports, Loaming, and activating a manland.
That brings me to the 'open land slot' question. For me, the following are obligatory:
4 Maze, Tabernacle, Chasm
4 Port, 4 Waste, Ghost Quarter
4 Fetch, 3 Tropical Island, Forest
3 Tolaria West, 3 Tranquil Thicket
Academy Ruins, Karakas (?)
which leaves you with 5 slots (given 36 land) in which I run:
Bayou, Creeping Tar Pit, 3 Mishra's Factory
I guess you could do: Taiga, Wolf Run, 2-3 Inkmoth Nexus - but I think this looks worse both defensively against decks where you want to block (Merfolk, Goblins, to some extend Zoo) and against Planeswalkers. The increase in game ending speed looks rather marginal, too.
Well, we already have a good matchup against Goblins, Merfolk, and Zoo, so I don't think that's really a big concern. But when things get tough against aggro, the role of the Factories is to buy time by chump blocking - they don't usually trade with tarmogoyf, etc. Inkmoth Nexus, on the other hand, can also chump, and on top of that there's the possibility of killing the creature over the course of a few turns. Its evasion also helps, since early game Factories seldom get in for much damage, whereas with Nexus, it seems like you can often get a head start on poison count when Factory would otherwise be a do-nothing.
I'm here for two things: First, how is the BUG Landstill matchup? What We should do to improve this?
Second, I'm looking for help in this list:
4 Exploration
4 Life from the Loam
4 Mox Diamond
3 Manabond
3 Intuition
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Enginereed Explosives
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Mindslaver
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Maze of Ith
1 Glacial Chasm
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Tolaria West
2 Tranquil Thicket
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Mishra's Factory (Should I play Treetop Village to increase my chances against Jaces?)
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas
Sideboard:
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Ethersworn Canonist (Flex Slot)
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Zuran Orb
I'm posting it thanks to iostream sugesting the topic about KotR. I'm not really impressed with Dark Confidants, so I decided keep it just Bant. Except for the Mindslaver in main and 3 Canonists (I really don't know what I should use instead) I'm really happy about my decklist.
Last weekend I played in a small tournament (40ish people is small for you in Europe and US, right?) with the deck and ended 3-3. I won against Reanimator, Zoo and Boros and lose for TES (But I won one game, so for me I'm the moral champion), BUGstill and Elves. I was testing Jaces along with Reliquary, but they wasn't that good - Reliquary, on other side, was awesome all day.
Well, that's my 2 cents.
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