[Deck] Dredge

[Que]

Eh, If you want to improve the reanimator matchup, why not a Faerie Macabre? It does the job without having to pay 2 life and feeds Ichorid.

Ah forgot about that card. Would def be better than surgical. Were most likely taking one ofs anyway. If we take the Elesh, the odds become wayyy better imo. That and the only way to stop Macabre would be with a stifle effect ect.

[K1w1]

I know the guy Hokus is talking about. I played at the same tourney where he did the 2nd out of 59.
Now to your conversation about dread return
Yes, you're right - this card has a good sacrifice effect, but you don't need it.
In Game 1 you should almost always win the game without Dread Return and any targets, because you're running 4 Ichorid instead of 3 and you can kill your opponent faster when you just attack with Ichorid + Zombies. Dread Return slows you.
Sure, you don't wanna attack in fear losing your bridges. But if you just lose 1 Bridge for maybe 9 dmg to the other, no problem or not? Game 2, you can board in dread return + targets ( btw good too, because they don't know your targets in game 1 )
If you're scared about Ooze Game 1. You have your Firestorm main.
I agree with changing 1 Tarnished Citadel with 1 Tireless Tribe / Darkblast

Another thing is the Reanimator matchup.
Sure, it's a freewin for reanimater with elesh norn.
So i always board 4 leyline of the void and for Show and Tell i have cabal therapy. So all in all, there isn't a problem.
I like this list. The only change i will do is taking Chain of Vapor in my SB. Awesome caaaaaard :)

K1w1

[Vandalize]

The major problem with not having 2 Dread Returns main deck is that if you start developing slowly, you might not stand a chance against a fat guy like Knight of the Reliquary. And big GGT is always a good beater :)

But, I haven't tested the no-dr main list to check consistency and speed yet. I'm going to give it a good try. Specially now that I've got my set of foil Ichorids and Cabal Therapies :D

[K1w1]

Yeah, but for Knight of the Reliquary you have Firestorm. And you can still explode with Breakthrough, Cephalid Colusseum and Careful Study. ( You can also do it when your opponent searches for a B'Bog.)
A GGT can GGt can be easily removed with StoP or PtE or sth. else.
Sure you get life, but you don't need it. I recommend to play this list or a similar of this.

K1w1

[Vandalize]

Sup zombie horde. Just a little report about a local store "tournament". I went 4-0 and got a Taiga for 1st place, yay.

The list:

4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Tarnished Citadel

4 Putrid Imp
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
3 Tiress Tribe

4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
2 Dread Return
1 Darkblast

SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 3 Ancient Grudge
SB: 3 Firestorm
SB: 2 Ray of Revelation
SB: 1 Angel of Despair
SB: 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

1) UWb Stoneblade (with snapcaster stuff) 2-0
G1: I keep my seven with 2 dorks and 2 dredgers but no draw spell/coliseum. Start dredging slowly, and my first Cabal Therapy hit 2 Swords to Plowshares he was saving for Ichorids. Next GGT dredge gave me 2 Ichorids and I start beating face.

SB: -3 Breakthrough -1 Tribe +3 Ancient Grudge +1 Elesh Norn

G2: He starts with Ponder, and FoW's my first dork. I manage to slip a Careful Study and start building from there. He manages to Swords every Ichorid I bring into play (now with Snapcaster's help), and can't find bridges or Narcomoebas. I have no dredgers in GY, but topdecked a Breakthrough. I think for a while, and played Breakthrough, which resolves. I draw 3 Bridges and 1 Darkblast and discard my hand full of dredgers. He manages to get batterskull online (but no mana to bounce it), bash me for 2 with Snapcaster and passes. I dredge 2 Narcomoebas, 1 Ichorid and some lands. I blind CT for FoW and hit it. Flashbacked Dread Return on Elesh Norn and made a bunch of fine Zombies. Flashbacked a Grudge with my last Gemstone Mine counter on Batterskull and just proceed to the massive bash. (eh, pretty much overkill).

2) RGb Vial Goblins 2-0
G1: I win the roll and draw my seven: City of Brass, Cephalid Coliseum, Tireless Tribe, Golgari Grave-Troll, Careful Study, Breakthrough, Golgari Thug. Eh... what else can I say?

SB: -1 Ichorid -1 Cabal Therapy +1 Elesh Norn +1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

G2: He starts with Lackey and I Darkblast it. He plays some lands and a Mogg War Marshal for the following 3 turns, while I go crazy with Coliseum. Brought Iona to join the party, and he topdecked a Relic of Progenitus after my DR. Too late buddy :/

3) TNT (ANT + Burning Wish) 2-1
G1: I win the roll and start with dork. He goes for Ponder. I dredge a lot of crap, and he combo on turn 2.

-3 Tireless Tribe +2 Firestorm +1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

G2: I open with blind Cabal Therapy on Brainstorm and I hit twice :D He has no library manipulation, and can't combo for 2~3 turns. I manage to slip a Careful Study to dredge 12 cards, and just raped the rest of his hand with another 2 CT. Ichorid + some Zombies finished it.

G3: He starts with Ponder again. My hand is the following: City of Brass, City of Brass, Firestorm, Tireless Tribe, Stinkweed Imp, Careful Study, Narcomoeba. I play land, think for a long while and pass. He brainstorms and pass back. I play the second city of brass and Tribe. He brainstorms again, and starts playing moxen and Rituals for mana. Then, he casted Ad Nauseam @ 20 life. He reveals cards until he reaches 3 life (revealed Tendrils, another Ad Nauseam and lots of burning wish in the process), and I just Firestorm him, myself and my Tribe in response to a Duress he plays afterwards. Epic Firestorm for 3.

4) NO Elves 2-0
G1: Darkblast on Heritage Druid + 2 Breakthroughs is all I can remember. Win.

-2 Ichorid +1 Iona +1 Elesh Norn

G2: He mulligan to 5 and starts with Llanowar Elves. I play dork. He plays land and Archdruid. I dredge stinkweed imp, and Careful Study for another 10 cards. I manage to cabal Therapy on Glimpse of Nature and miss it, but he had no business at all. Next turn I dredged the Dread Return I was in need, and Elesh Norn came in to win (and it rhymes).

That was pretty much it. Dredge is really brutal when people can't interact, and the deck doesn't shit on your face (like 3 Narcomoeba openers).

Any thoughts/criticism on the list?

[kombatkiwi]

I love the Firestorm kill against the storm player
That's an amazing trick
Again from my own experience at testing the feldman list and your own report I have to ask do you think it's really worth having 9 Anti-Hate cards in the SB that you never used? (Well you did grudge on a batterskull I guess that's another relevant use for that particular card, but you know what I mean)

[Mojeh]

First of all, congratulations on your result.

I'd like to know your thoughts about the 4th Ichorid MD (you sided it out many times) and the 13th Dredger over 4th Tribe. Also, about the Storm match, are you convicted CT for Brainstorm (blind) is a good choice? I mean, normally we see guys naming LED, or Tutors.

[joemauer]

Congrats Vandalize. Only comment on the deck is Angel of Despair over woodfall/testydon? Works good for you? And why not side in some firestorms versus elves?

@mojeh: Vandalize didn't side ichorid out much. I am curious as to why he named brainstorm as well? Gut feeling?

[Vandalize]

Congrats Vandalize. Only comment on the deck is Angel of Despair over woodfall/testydon? Works good for you? And why not side in some firestorms versus elves?

@mojeh: Vandalize didn't side ichorid out much. I am curious as to why he named brainstorm as well? Gut feeling?

Pure gut feeling. My friend plays T.E.S since forever, and he said: the deck's weak spot is the cantrips, because If I manage to get a good starter, you'll lose anyways. So, I was following his good advice, and naming Brainstorm/Ponder for my first Therapy. And I didn't think of Firestorm against Elves dunno why.

Woodfall Primus was my pet in previous decks, but I just got a foil Angel of Despair, and wanted to give him a try, lol.

[kombatkiwi]

I really like Angel because it hits peacekeeper (not as relevant this format) and Blazing archon (More relevant this format)

[NecroYawgmoth]

All in all Angel should be better than Woodfall... As it is the ONLY creature which kills ANY targeted Permanent of Choice.

Only thing what's good on Primus is the Persist and that isn't worth it IMO.

Angel can also kill a Knight or a freshplayed Ooze which can be kinda relevant.

[HokusSchmokus]

I have finally found a list I am satisfied with.


4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Tarnished Citadel

4 Putrid Imp
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
1 Tireless Tribe
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
4 Bridge from Below
4 Firestorm
1 Dread Return
So this is almost it. What I am not quite happy with is the lack of Darkblast but the only thing I really want to cut is the 4th Thug, but then I have to cut the 4th Ichorid, a thing I really don't want to do atm. List performs smoove and I am going to take this baby to 2 local tournaments this weekend.
As for the SB I am really satisfied and kind of proud that I managed to Squeeze in something that does something against the mirror, Reanimator(oh god, the Matchup is winnable now!) and any Past in Flames-ish combo that might come up( I really think it's gonna be played in Amsterdam.Better safe than sorry)
Thanks to kabards who brought me the idea I have now the following sb:
1 Dread Return
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Nature's Claim
2 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Sadistic Hypnotist
3 Memory's Journey
Any comments and help to further streamline this beast of a deck for Amsterdam are highly appreciated!

[Izor]

Misstep gone --> We're back at DTB !


I've continued testing without DR main and I came to the same results as before. Two is the best number imho, and in some cases I could think about going down to 1 main. But I wouldn't play without them.

The Firestorms main still perform poorly in comparison to Tireless Tribe. One can pretty much determine in which matchups one wants Firestorm, and where Tribes are way better.

Pro Firestorm:

-Maverick style decks with GSZ and Ooze.
-Affinity (vs Ravager in the first place)
-Merfolks, and even here Tribes can be just as good.

Pro Tribe:

-It's better against basically everything else, including:
-all sorts of Storm combo
-all sorts of Control

- plus Tirbe is way more consistent in all those cases where it generally doesn't matter which one you have.



Thus, my conclusion is the same as before: Tribes are better maindeck, Firestorms can go into the sideboard. In metagames where you have lots of decks that fall into the 'Pro Firestorm' catrgory above, Firestorm main is an option.

That's at least what I've concluded after testing.

[Vandalize]

Misstep gone --> We're back at DTB !


I've continued testing without DR main and I came to the same results as before. Two is the best number imho, and in some cases I could think about going down to 1 main. But I wouldn't play without them.

The Firestorms main still perform poorly in comparison to Tireless Tribe. One can pretty much determine in which matchups one wants Firestorm, and where Tribes are way better.

Pro Firestorm:

-Maverick style decks with GSZ and Ooze.
-Affinity (vs Ravager in the first place)
-Merfolks, and even here Tribes can be just as good.

Pro Tribe:

-It's better against basically everything else, including:
-all sorts of Storm combo
-all sorts of Control

- plus Tirbe is way more consistent in all those cases where it generally doesn't matter which one you have.



Thus, my conclusion is the same as before: Tribes are better maindeck, Firestorms can go into the sideboard. In metagames where you have lots of decks that fall into the 'Pro Firestorm' catrgory above, Firestorm main is an option.

That's at least what I've concluded after testing.

Agreed. Firestorm belongs in the sideboard, because G1 it doesn't do what we want (combo out).

BUT, you forgot to add that Firestorm can push life totals a little down, and that's pretty relevant when the deck shits on you, or you don't have enough gas to win on turn 3~4~5.

Still, Dredge is a very very strong archtype, and can pull out wins out of nowhere. (I've won a GW Maverick game where I got 2 Narcomoebas in my mulligan to 6, lol).

[HokusSchmokus]

What? Why in the Hell is Tribe better against combo? I don't think so. Firestorms "burn" is just too much to handle most of the times.
Went 3-1 Yesterday, 6-2 in games, my only 2 losses against Spiral Tide, where I mulled to 5 both games. second one was close though.
I defeated CB Stiflenought, Spiral Tide and Canadian Thresh 2-0 each. Moment of the day: Lethal Firestorm for 6 after my Opponent resolved a Timespiral:D

List was 4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
3 Tarnished Citadel

4 Putrid Imp
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
4 Bridge from Below
4 Firestorm
1 Dread Return

SB: 1 Dread Return
3 Ancient Grudge
4 Nature's Claim
2 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Sadistic Hypnotist
1 Realm Razer
1 Leyline of the Void

The deck performed really consistent and convinced me to run Firestorm main. It allows so many insane plays!( You win the roll, you lay down a land and say go. Opponent casts 1 Mana Dork,you go EOT Firestorm for 3,then on your turn Dredge 6, Careful Study, Breakthrough.)Gonna play it today for further testing.

[Izor]

What? Why in the Hell is Tribe better against combo? I don't think so. Firestorms "burn" is just too much to handle most of the times.

Cause I lose more games against Combo when I don't hit another Dredger after Firestorm turn 1 and can't do anything with my Breakthrough on turn 2 than I win games by going to the face with it. By far.

Killing their turn 1 dork is largely irrelevant if you have Dredger plus Draw anyway. I don't fear a Mom or Noble Hierarch if I have 9 Zombies and a Troll after therapying them to death.


That's exactly my problem with Firestorm. It is often win more.


Congratz on your good finish, though !

[HokusSchmokus]

Today went meh. I was considering Realm Razer or Darkblast SB and decided for Razer because I saw Enchantress. Then got paired against GW, mom blocked GGT all day. Couldn't Firestorm either. Enchantress is manageble with Iona and Hypnotist, so that I definately will run 1 Darkblast Side at the GP. Lands is still a bad matchup with Razer, after all and you can win without him.
@ Izor: I run 12 dredgers main, I did not have the problem yet. 8 discard outlets were always enough, too.So,while this list works and GW is still around, I think I will continue playing Firestorm, though I can understand your points against it.

[Mojeh]

@HokusSchmokus: Sweet list, I'm going to try this new configuration, although I still prefer Chain of Vapor over Nature's Claim. What are your strategy against Storm-combos?
In my experience, Iona/Zealot and Hypnotist aren't enough to win against Tendrils, or maybe I just don't know what to therapy, any advices?

[Claymore-One]

*sad* There's no Legacy scene where I am at. I'm fairly new to the area, but went to a few stores and the owner said he's going to try to get a legacy scene going. Only thing people here play are commander, standard, and yu-gi-oh. So, all I can really do is play booster drafts, but takes my legacy decks with me anyways in case I see a fellow legacy player. x_x

Well... at least there's people to play booster drafts with. x_x"

My Dredge list is pretty standard, except for the Unmasks, which I really like. Have had them in there for just about as long as Ancient Grudge I think.

4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Tarnished Citadel

4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return

4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid

1 Darkblast

4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug

4 Putrid Imp
3 Tireless Tribe

4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
1 Angel of Despair

SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 3 Ancient Grudge
SB: 3 Firestorm
SB: 1 Elesh Norm, Grand Cenobite
SB: 1 Ancestor's Chosen
SB: 3 Unmask

I was really looking forward to Innistrad hoping for a new toy, but I guess I'll have to wait and see for the new set. Granted we just recently got Elesh, but Terrastodon is just fine as well. Only reason for my 3 Coliseum is for casting my SB cards game 2 and 3. As for Unmasks, I've had them in there for so long, and they make me feel comfortable when facing off storm based combo decks. Granted I haven't played that match up enough, but so far, I've played against 5 different storm pilots, and won each one.

Also, looking at the threads around here, and looking at each deck's match up analysis. Is Reanimator really that bad of a match up against us? I ask because back then when Mystical Tutor wasn't banned. I was in a tournament, and 1 guy was curious which graveyard based deck to play with. I've been playing Dredge for so long, and there's a guy who plays reanimator for quite some time also. He sat down and watch us play, we played a good amount of games, and these matches was fast actually. The game end up 17-15 in my favor. We didn't really mind as we were chatting too in the process just killing time waiting for the legacy side event to start.

Granted I was using Chain of Vapor back then instead of Nature's Claim, but everything else (except for Elesh) is the same. Don't know if it's just because because of my experience with the deck, but, is reanimator really that bad of a match up for dredge?

PS:
I was Zappa1 in here before, but since I joined the military, and recently got back around here several months ago, I totally forgot the password ha ha. Anyways, glad to be back with you fellow sources.

[Claymore-One]

*sad* There's no Legacy scene where I am at. I'm fairly new to the area, but went to a few stores and the owner said he's going to try to get a legacy scene going. Only thing people here play are commander, standard, and yu-gi-oh. So, all I can really do is play booster drafts, but takes my legacy decks with me anyways in case I see a fellow legacy player. x_x

Well... at least there's people to play booster drafts with. x_x"

My Dredge list is pretty standard, except for the Unmasks, which I really like. Have had them in there for just about as long as Ancient Grudge I think.

4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Tarnished Citadel

4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return

4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid

1 Darkblast

4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug

4 Putrid Imp
3 Tireless Tribe

4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
1 Angel of Despair

SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 3 Ancient Grudge
SB: 3 Firestorm
SB: 1 Elesh Norm, Grand Cenobite
SB: 1 Ancestor's Chosen
SB: 3 Unmask

I was really looking forward to Innistrad hoping for a new toy, but I guess I'll have to wait and see for the new set. Granted we just recently got Elesh, but Terrastodon is just fine as well. Only reason for my 3 Coliseum is for casting my SB cards game 2 and 3. As for Unmasks, I've had them in there for so long, and they make me feel comfortable when facing off storm based combo decks. Granted I haven't played that match up enough, but so far, I've played against 5 different storm pilots, and won each one.

Also, looking at the threads around here, and looking at each deck's match up analysis. Is Reanimator really that bad of a match up against us? I ask because back then when Mystical Tutor wasn't banned. I was in a tournament, and 1 guy was curious which graveyard based deck to play with. I've been playing Dredge for so long, and there's a guy who plays reanimator for quite some time also. He sat down and watch us play, we played a good amount of games, and these matches was fast actually. The game end up 17-15 in my favor. We didn't really mind as we were chatting too in the process just killing time waiting for the legacy side event to start.

Granted I was using Chain of Vapor back then instead of Nature's Claim, but everything else (except for Elesh) is the same. Don't know if it's just because because of my experience with the deck, but, is reanimator really that bad of a match up for dredge?

PS:
I was Zappa1 in here before, but since I joined the military, and recently got back around here several months ago, I totally forgot the password ha ha. Anyways, glad to be back with you fellow sources.