[Deck] Death and Taxes

[Eatatjoes]

So Finn, what does your list look like now, in the current metagame? Are you going to just run the list that you did good with at the 5k?

[Curby]

@whippoorwill, congrats on the finish, and thanks for the report. What do you think about the changes you made? After this event, are you going to make any tweaks? Elixir obviously worked for you a few times, but it seems a little win-more and can be a pretty horrible topdeck.

Having Mindcensor as well as (Leonin) Arbiter seems like a lot of hate for searching. How often did you have all 5 in at once?

@murderface, Finn's pre-ban list uses Leonin Arbiters instead of Ousts. Post-ban/Innistrad, there seems to be a lot of love for Nevermore in the side.

[Barbed Blightning]

Is/was oust really worth it? I have friends who say sunlance is better removal.

[Finn]

I really liked Oust because it has some hidden effects on the game that (as with much of this deck, because the plays are uncommon except against D+T) allowed me an opportunity to outplay my opponents who were not expecting them. They include: Ousting my own Flickerwisp or Revoker for some life and a new target two turns later - kinda meh, but I found myself doing it on occasion. Oust your opponent's creature while keeping his land disrupted. This has the effect of delaying his development an extra turn as he draws the creature again instead of land - this is a common tax. Oust while opponent has an unfetched land, coercing him to get a land you can destroy or tap. etc.

I don't really know what my list will look like. hrmph. But I am certainly going to pick up some Nevermores. Revokers are actually pretty nifty against both LEDs and Candelabras, so storm combo is marginally easier with them in the main. I think that Nevermore may very well be a turn too slow. I know that Glowrider was. But it was really effective if the opponent got set back a single turn dealing with something else temporary like Chant or Port or if he Duressed me. Unfortunately, Port on turn 2 means you can't Tutor on that turn. So you would have to be holding Nevermore. So the plan is still to go for Canonist as your primary hate. I think Nevermore's power is not that it is the perfect hate card against storm like Canonist is. Rather, it is a hate card that is actually useful elsewhere. That is why I want more than one in my board.

[Whippoorwill]

@whippoorwill, congrats on the finish, and thanks for the report. What do you think about the changes you made? After this event, are you going to make any tweaks? Elixir obviously worked for you a few times, but it seems a little win-more and can be a pretty horrible topdeck.

Having Mindcensor as well as (Leonin) Arbiter seems like a lot of hate for searching. How often did you have all 5 in at once?

The biggest changes I would make would be with the sideboard, possibly going towards the Tutor based build. I could probably cut the Elixirs for the reason you mentioned (which is a very valid point) but I'm still high on the potential with Mangara, Stoneforge and Mother of Runes. I may cut 1 and replace it with a 3rd Mindcensor (pre-Innistrad) or cut them both and a Flickerwisp to put in 3 Fiend Hunters.

My mistake, it was Grand Abolisher that was in the board, not Grand Arbiter. I only brought them in for the control matches and I'm not sure how useful he was in the Fish match since I pretty much already had the game won when he hit. In the Team America match he ate a Maelstrom Pulse, that was about it.

[Barbed Blightning]

I don't know if I'd cut to below 4 flickerwisps; they're really fantastic, and essential to the deck.

[LegacyDan]

With the most recent bannings, I am sleeving up D+T again and changing the board an E Tutor based one. What do ya'll think of Nevermore from Innistrad? I like the looks of it, and the WW in its casting cost is pretty easy to hit.

[Curby]

I know Finn was talking about entire playsets at one point. I'll be looking to fit at least one into my toolbox. I'm not sure that I can find room for more. =)

[lebarion]

Well, just want to tell about a good result here to show that this deck is far from dead.

I took monoW D+T to a 104-people tournament this weekend, to a 5-2 result.
I won against Enchantress, Affinity, Deadguy, Lands and Merfolk, and lost against Elves and other Merfolk (terrible play mistake here).

The 8 best placed in the swiss that didn't have the invitation for the Brazilian Legacy Nationals were paired to play for the invitation. I faced Merfolk and UW stoneblade in this "top8", and got the invitation.

My list was very similar to the one in the opening post, with 4 Revokers main deck. 23 lands flooded me the entire day, though, and probably I'll go back to 22.

[from Cairo]

My list was very similar to the one in the opening post, with 4 Revokers main deck. 23 lands flooded me the entire day, though, and probably I'll go back to 22.

Firstly, congrats.

On the land thing- Caleb Dunward had posted a list during MM-era with some Horizon Canopy in place of some Plains. That struck me as some solid tech, cause they're going to be functionally the same most of the time, you have way better Wasteland targets anyway. A few points of pain in the early game is probably acceptable for stability when it means you can cycle the land later when you hit the 4-5 mana you need.

You could totally go down to 22 as well, just thought I'd mention the Canopy thing if it maybe hadn't been discussed in this thread.

[lebarion]

On the land thing- Caleb Dunward had posted a list during MM-era with some Horizon Canopy in place of some Plains. That struck me as some solid tech, cause they're going to be functionally the same most of the time, you have way better Wasteland targets anyway. A few points of pain in the early game is probably acceptable for stability when it means you can cycle the land later when you hit the 4-5 mana you need.

I've never thought about Horizon Canopy. I'll test a couple of them for sure, seems to be a good idea. I'm only a little bit worried about Wasteland in the Merfolk match, but I think we can hadle it.

What about Fiend Hunter? It seems to be a good inclusion, probably in Jötun Grunt's place.

[Curby]

The problem is that Grunt is simultaneously cheaper and much (4x) bigger. It acts as an undercosted beater that can be kept in play with Flickerwisp or brought back with SoLS. Admittedly you didn't face a lot of grave-based decks in your recent tourney and that may limit his perceived usefulness, but the meta is going towards Reanimator, and undercosted beaters that happen to cherry-pick cards out of the yard are just what you'll want as you race to finish the game.

[mrjumbo03]

I think it might be worth mentioning that Jotun Grunt has an added utility in a world full of Snapcasters too.

[lebarion]

I think it might be worth mentioning that Jotun Grunt has an added utility in a world full of Snapcasters too.

This is true.
In fact, in my last tournament Jotun has been useful even though I haven't faced graveyard-based decks. I also was running SoBM instead of SoFI (expecting many control-ish decks), and in the couple times both hit the table it was a blowout.

But I think Fiend Hunter is too useful not to run. I'll try to find a place for at least 2 in the maindeck, and let you know the results.

EDIT: Thinking about it now, Kitchen Finks seems better than Fiend Hunter. I've already tested it and found the cost to be a problem... I'll test it anyway, just to be sure.

[Finn]

You can pull Flickerwisp 2-1 tricks with him, he hits Emrakul, etc. But t0he problem that Fiend Hunter is likely to face is that it is almost dead against certain decks. As a 1/3, he really is not priced aggressively enough to be good on his own in any way. This happened with the one that is a Disenchant. Sure there are more creatures, but that one is a 2/2 for 2.

The deck really does not have any weak cards in it. If you are cutting something, you are losing something. Is your replacement worth it? Every few months, people start to talk about cutting Jotun Grunt. There is something about him that folks don't see for some reason. They have always been wrong in the past.

[Curby]

Yeah, I've cut the fourth Grunt from my sideboard to have a more varied toolbox, but I can't see myself taking out the three in the maindeck. I have cut a Revoker and SFM to make room for some meta choices, but it's only due to the power of those cards that I'd take out Revokers and SFMs, which are themselves extremely powerful. I wouldn't take out such cards (or any others really) for Fiend Hunter.

[Barbed Blightning]

I imagine this has already been shot down before, but if you're talking about using kitchen finks, why not this guy: http://magiccards.info/scans/en/pc/1.jpg? He's a flier, has finks' ability, great with a sword and can be bounced with flickerwisp/stonecloaker. I suppose the three-turn clock on him is a downside, however, I often find grunt to be of a similar lifespan and he's still fantastic. Plus at 2W, riftwatcher is less mana-specific than the finks.

[Curby]

If we're comparing it to Kitchen Finks, Finks can come back if killed but Aven can't.

However, the original slot was Grunt, and that comparison's much worse. In its two attacks (Vanishing, not Fading), Aven might do 4 damage. In a single attack, Grunt matches that. Sure Aven flies, but we've already got 8 3-power fliers in the deck.

IMO if you really need the life, there are options in the deck already (2 swords give life, StP) and you could consider things such as Basilisk Collar. Easier to get going, and easily searched for by either SFM or Tutor.

[lebarion]

After testing Fiend Hunter against Merfolk and Zoo, I've confirmed my expectations and found it to be inferior to Kitchen Finks. There were only a couple times Merfolk had more than two lords in play and I was very happy to see Fiend Hunter.

I like Grunt more because of the versatility he provides against grave-based decks than because of its power, and I'll stick with him for now mainly because of that. In my opinion, though, if Zoo is a big concern Kitchen Finks should be used in Grunt's slot.

I'd like to ask Kirby, Finn and everyone else here about some other topics:
1. Horizon Canopy - has it been tested? Does the damage or making the manabase more vunerable hurt too much?
2. Sword of X and Y- could it replace Sword of W and Z? (I'm testing Body and Mind in Fire and Ice's place, and I'm still unsure about the pros/cons)
3. Oblivion Ring - has it definitively lost its slot? Mangara and Flickerwisp are enough to handle artifacts, enchantments et al?

Thanks!

[Finn]

I tested Body and Mind when it first came out. It was ok. The biggest reason I am not using it is because it is pro-ug. I am absolutely not cutting Fire//Ice. That one is a clear step above all the others. Since there is no good reason to overload on weapons, I only have space for one other. And I want to have protection from 4 colors between them. That leaves Light//Shadow or Feast//Famine. I may permanently switch to Feast//Famine because the life gain on Light Shadow can be accomplished with Jitte and the raise dead seems to be win-more.

I have one O-Ring in my SB. Too slow in most cases. I actually used to side them out against Merfolk and Goblins because of how slow they are. In other words, they are no good as removal against tribal. That screams sideboard to me.

I have no experience with Horizon Canopy without Knight of the Reliquary. But it is the knight that makes it so good.