True, there are cases where the Split Second could matter against those decks as well, however, for most of my testing I've had way more use for the free manacost of Extraction than the Split Second of Extirpate. I've tried different splits, and in the end it's about personal taste and expected metagame, as is most other sideboard decisions.Originally Posted by Esper3k
Thanks! This was kind of what I was looking for as well, to see if the cheaper cost of Extraction was worth losing Split Second for (in people's experience).
If you aren't running Snapcaster Mage I don't think I would run either. Crypt effects are way better vs Dredge, and just about the same vs Reanimator, if not better as it's much easier to protect a Tormod's Crypt from discard.
they haunt minds...
Diversity within the GY hate > lack thereof.
No love for Leyline of the Void? I have limited testing with the card, but it is a bomb verus dredge/reanimate/loam that must be answered. We can provide protection with our discard and counters to buy time for a delver or Goyf to win.
I love Extripate, but i think it is much easier for GY decks to overcome an extirpate than it is for them to overcome a Leyline.
As a veteran Dredge pilot, all I have to say is that Leyline of the Void is my worst nightmare (perhaps, all dredge player's nightmare).
Especially in Team America who runs discard/counterspells backup.
Against Leyline, we need to mulligan agressively for Nature's Claim and Ray of Revelation. And almost always, we don't get enough gas if we mulligan for anti-hate.
Let your Dredge 6 be: Narco, Narco, Narco, Bridge, Bridge, Dread Return
Great love for leyline, but not in a 4 ponder, 4 brainstorm deck. When you have that much search it is nicer with something that can get pulled from the top. I liked leyline in BUGstill for what its worth.
Been really dissapointed by delver in testing. He does nothing in all the aggro matchups where we really need him to pull weight
I think Delver works really well in a deck like Canadian Thresh, where the deck doesn't really have any mid-to-late game bombs and is instead entirely focused on dealing with the early game. TA is generally more midrangey, and so a 1 drop like Delver can be underwhelming.
edit: Check out Dan's new top 8 list from Jupiter Games... 4 Delvers.
Last edited by wcm8; 10-16-2011 at 10:08 PM.
My testing with the delver build was also not that impressive. Of course it can be very strong, but it is too vulnerable and conditional.
In general I have to admit that my first instincts were wrong. What I mean is that my initial thought after the MM banning and Innistrad release was that snapcaster has to be dismissed for the sake of running a 20 land build with Stifle/Daze/Wasteland. Now I see that Midrange is still here and also a lot of other decks make it to the late game, where we draw stifle/daze and they draw Jace, snapcaster, Knight of the Reliquary or other bombs. After playing the 23 land build with snapcaster and Jace that SCG calls "Team America", I have to admit it feels very strong. Still crushing combo, but a much stronger game versus the rest of the field...
What list are you refering to?
I tested delver in different builds (With or without stifle) and without snapcaster running goyfs and tombstalker. Why is the exact list important to you?
I've got my list ready for Baltimore, down to a few minor card choices. I took it to a tournament last Sunday, went 3-0 in swiss before IDing twice into the top 8, then won the first two matches of top 8 before splitting the finals. Took it to a 4 round swiss tournament wednesday, went 3-0 before splitting the finals, so right now this build is 8-0 in sanctioned play. Unfortunately almost all of those matches were against combo and control, not aggro or merfolk, so I'm a little short on some of the testing. My game 1 zoo matchup is weak, but postboard it gets much better.
For clarification, I have now beaten the following decks with this in tournaments:
Team America (with Jace and Snapcaster and extra lands)
Hive Mind
ANT
B/W Stoneforge
Charbelcher
Enchantress
Reanimator
U/W Stoneforge
The Decklist
Creatures (15)
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Dark Confidant
3x Snapcaster Mage
Spells (26)
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
4x Ponder
4x Brainstorm
2x Thoughtseize
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Unearth
2x Ghastly Demise
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Liliana of the Veil
Land
4x Underground Sea
2x Tropical Island
2x Bayou
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Misty Rainforest
2x Polluted Delta
1x Island
Sideboard
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Extirpate
2x Spell Pierce
1x Dispel
1x Thoughtseize
1x Liliana of the Veil
1x Ghastly Demise
2x Darkblast
1x Dismember
1x Diabolic Edict
2x Go for the Throat
Overview
It's a pretty big departure from Team America in that it is no longer a Tempo deck, it plays like an aggro deck. As a result, I ended up cutting some key cards you're used to seeing in Team America (Hymn to Tourach, Wasteland), because the gameplan of the deck is very different.
Specifics
Hymn to Tourach isn't as good in this deck because I'm not trying to create card advantage and win via resource denial, but instead I'm trying to play an aggressive deck backed up by counterspells and hand disruption. As a result, I'm less interested in the 2for1 created by Hymn, and more interested in the card selection offered by Thoughtseize and Inquisition. I'm also looking to play Tarmogoyf or Dark Confidant on turn 2, so having a good turn 1 play (Delver, Thoughtseize, Inquisition) is important. Past iterations of Team America have been less interested in a turn 2 Goyf than this build is, so Hymn really loses out here.
I'm down to 19 lands maindeck, but it feels like I'm running more lands than the old 20 and 21 lists because I've cut Wasteland entirely. The color requirements in this deck make Wasteland a little less practical, and since I'm not trying to grind out a game, I really don't need it. If you're playing against a deck that doesn't have Waste, feel free to cut the basic Island when boarding, and play 18 lands. It should probably just be playing 18 anyway, but I'm not quite that greedy. Against decks like Zoo that have path, cut a fetch instead so you can ramp off of Path.
The only real flex spot in the deck right now is the 2 Unearths. They're either amazing or totally insignificant. I've considered making them Spell Snares, or another removal spell, a preordain, or a thoughtseize. I've also pretty seriously considered going 1 Unearth and 1 Reanimate. Reanimate could be amazing in the reanimator matchup, if I draw it and manage to steal one of their fatties, it could be pretty impressive, and in the mirror it also seems quite good. Also I could slot a singleton Sylvan Library in one of those slots.
Sideboarding
The Thoughtseize in the board may become a Dispel, because I can bring in Dispel against zoo, and I can't bring Thoughtseize in against zoo. My plan against zoo is to cut the 8 counterspells and a fetch and bring in the 8 removal spells (counting liliana) and a Dispel. If I have a second Dispel, I can cut a Thoughtseize from the main for the second Dispel.
Against combo I cut the 2 ghastly demises, 2 unearths, and a fetch for the 2 spell pierces, 1 dispel, 1 thoughtseize, and 1 liliana. Depending on the kind of combo, the maelstrom pulse in the main and board are flexible: obviously I want the pulses if it's an empty the warrens wincon, but otherwise I don't want it.
Questions
Obviously I'm pretty set on most of the list right now, but I did have a few questions
- Thoughts on Unearth, and if not, what would you run in it's place? Spell Snare is the obvious choice I think, but this deck taps out SO much that having all of my counterspells playable for free has been really nice. Still, Snare could be good. A 5th discard spell would also be nice though, so I'm not sure what to do there
- This really depends on what happens with the unearths, but thoughts about a 2nd dispel in the sideboard? Is there a combo deck that Dispel is basically useless against and I'll wish they were pierces or flusterstorms?
Lastly, I firmly recognize this isn't Team America. My girlfriend has been calling it the Insect House, because it's basically just BUG Zoo, but for now, this seems to be the most appropriate forum for it.
I appreciate any and all suggestions/comments you have.
J
Rank Player Points OMW%
1 Jerome, Puthod * [FRA] 27 76.46%
2 Köstler, Jonas * [DEU] 27 75.92%
3 Bertelsen, Daniel S * [DNK] 27 70.60%
4 Staaden Van, Niek * [NLD] 25 66.07%
5 Ahonen, Pekka * [NLD] 25 61.37%
6 Megias, Raul * [NLD] 24 80.24%
7 Goddik, Hans Jacob * [NLD] 24 79.55%
8 Frauenschläger, Mat * [DEU] 24 77.77%
Follow me on Twitter @RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
I got first place at a local tournament (Superior Sports Cards in Tarentum, PA) with the following list:
20 Lands (9 fetch 4 wastes 7 duals)
4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Goyf
3 Tombstalker
3 Snapcaster
4 Hymn
2 Dismember
1 Go for the Throat
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Sylvan Library
1 Liliana of the Veil
SB:
3 Spell Pierce
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Extirpate (sucks)
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Ghastly Demise
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Jace, TMS
In a heavy control metagame, I would consider dropping 1 Dismember in the main for an additional Maelstrom Pulse. Otherwise I think the main is pretty much optimized for a tempo build. Snapcaster was amazing all day, flashing back removal (yes, even Pulse), Hymns, cantrips, and once I even used it to replay Daze against an opponent tapping out to playing GSZ for four (presumably to find KotR). The card is the real deal, but I don't think I'd want to play more than 3 in this style of deck.
Liliana is awesome. She can just steal games, either by helping you get back or further ensure your advantage. I would highly recommend her as at least a 1-of.
Any UBG deck not running a Sylvan Library is doing it wrong. I may even consider a 2nd, it's that good.
As for the SB, I would cut Extirpate for an additional Crypt and Spellbomb. Extirpate does too little too late, and you want to be clearing the entire GY against dredge (which I was still luckily able to beat in the swiss). My thought was to use Snapcaster to flashback Extirpate, but you really don't typically have the time or opportunity against decks were GY hate really matters. The reason for the split of Crypt/Spellbomb is simply to avoid getting completely screwed by an early Cabal Therapy or Pithing Needle. Additionally, if you are up against some sort of control deck that utilizes the GY but not enough to warrant 4 slots, Spellbomb at the very least cantrips.
(However, if your metagame has no graveyard decks, these slots could be used for other cards like Perish, Darkblast, Krosan Grip/Seal of Primordium, etc. Or if you are only concerned with Reanimator but not Dredge, Faerie Macabre deserves some consideration as a nearly-uncounterable way to deal with their GY.)
I didn't always side in all 3 Pernicious Deed, but this card is still key for winning the Merfolk matchup, with other important applications against various decks. I could maybe see cutting one for a 2nd Maelstrom Pulse.
Re: Spell Pierce, I've never been a huge fan of targeted discard spells in this style of deck. I can see the merit in running Thoughtseize alongside a build using Delver of Secrets, but with my build I want Spell Pierce found via Brainstorm in reaction to some sort of threat, or I want to keep U up to at least bluff Stifle. I'd also rather an opponent waste mana on their own turn trying to resolve Hymn or whatever than me having to tap out on my turn and pay 2 life to pluck it. Thoughtseize is also of no help when your opponent topdecks their Show and Tell/Natural Order.
Admittedly, this tournament's sample size was relatively small, but I played against some rough matchups and the majority of the players at this event are very good (Rich Shay, Stu Somers, Tim Babcock etc). That said, I have also tested this build a lot online via Cockatrice and found it to be fantastic there as well.
congratulations on the performances guys, didn't play Team America because i didn't have quite enough time to find a version of it that satisfies me in the G/W matchup (most of the Danish team where testing U/W so thats what we were spending time on), i played Eli Kassis esper-blade list from the Jupitor games with a couple of days of fine tuning and a real sideboard. That deck is really awesome with its ability to run with confidant and without force, and is by far the best snapcaster deck i have seen.
I will write up a report in the general section once i get a couple of days of sleep. I ended up 41st at x-4, a bit lower than i had hoped for but still ok.
For the Maverick matchup, there are several cards that should help: Darkblast, Perish, Nature's Ruin, Virtue's Ruin, any black removal but especially Deathmark. Pernicious Deed and Engineered Explosives aren't too shabby either. Using Snapcaster to replay removal is also key. The only cards that seen utterly game breaking are Choke and an uncontested Aven Mindcensor when you have no lands. Otherwise, I fail to see why Maverick is any more difficult than any other aggro matchup.
What are Team America's worst matchups? I've been trying to think of some decks that stomp it, but I can't think of many. I don't really know a whole lot about the deck's inner workings though.
Zoo (particularly fast versions with lots of little creatures and burn), Burn/Sligh, Merfolk, any deck running a bunch of non-basic hate (Choke, Blood Moon, etc). I also find Standstill style control decks with lots of removal somewhat difficult.
Anything with a lot of burn, Mono-B control (yeah really), Merfolk can be bad, and oddly enough you'll have a hard time against janky crap with a lot of basics.
I actually rarely play TA around my area just because there's always that one guy who can build a decent enough deck, but doesn't have the money for the duals and other expensive stuff and TA just starts hurting when it can't take advantage of those things.
It's really infuriating because it's such an amazing deck if you feel like decimating combo decks and we have no lack of those.
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