[Deck] Manaless Ichorid

[the resurrection]

Manaless Dredge Day 1 undefeated !!!

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazin...ms11/welcome#0

[1maarten1]

Manaless Dredge Day 1 undefeated !!!

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazin...ms11/welcome#0

And then lost to ANT :(. Won game 1 on turn 2, then lost game 2 due to the storm player playing a well placed cabal therapy and game 3 he just went off too quick.

Looked like the same list as Hollywood

[Michael Keller]

That's actually really funny. I spoke to someone via P.M. about list adjustments and it is possible that person could have been the one who made Day Two.

People do tend to underestimate the Combo match a little. It is absolutely possible to win the game on the second turn or do an irreparable amount of damage to an opponent where Ad Nauseam becomes essentially useless - if they even have a chance to get it off before ripping their hand apart.

Either way, that's awesome. I was also informed by someone who played Manaless Dredge at Star City in Baltimore that they made 17th place. Like I said, the deck is extremely underrated and right now it is very well-positioned with all of the conditional counter-magic and Tempo-based strategies running around. And don't forget, Counterbalance won the whole damn thing, and that's actually quasi-bad for traditional Dredge variants, unlike its manaless counterpart.

[KevinTrudeau]

@the day 1 undefeated list— three Narcomoeba seems really, really bad.

While I do agree that the DDD gameplan leads to a lot of misconceptions concerning the deck's speed, I still think this deck is pretty much a dog to combo. The turn two hands you speak of Hollywood all involve GGT and multiple copies of Street Wraith (in addition to likely needing a Phantasmagorian in the 'yard), hands that are less likely to occur than a combo player getting a T1 kill with Ad Nauseam and rituals, or Thoughtseizing you turn one and then winning on turn three.

[NecroYawgmoth]

That's actually really funny. I spoke to someone via P.M. about list adjustments and it is possible that person could have been the one who made Day Two.

Unfortunately not. My mate pushed me to play Canadian Thresh all the time, so I went 7-2 at day 1 and 4-3 at day 2 with that deck.

Nevertheless, it's good to see that a list with your tweaks/suggestions played 9-0 at day 1. I will test these out the next tourneys. =)

Also, I agree with Kevin that 3 Narcomoebas seem really bad... It can't be so bad to make room for 1 slot which is THAT important.

[Michael Keller]

Four Narcomoeba is a must, without a doubt.

At any rate, I have been looking more at moving a single Gigapede to the main. I think the list has some flex slots available, and I'm finding on occasion that when you don't have an accelerator in your hand (Street Wraith or Gitaxian Probe), you become more dependent on individual dredges - which means you're banking on your deep-dredgers like Stinkweed Imp and Golgari Grave-Troll. In doing so, you need to maximize not only your ability to continue to dredge, but to continue to filter as well. I think Gigapede has a very misunderstood ability in this deck; at first glance, all it looks like is a dead card with an innocuous ability, but in reality, I'm seeing it as a more important engine-smoother than any other card in the deck.

Without Phantasmagorian in the graveyard, you're looking at three to five 'dead' cards in your hand - and no other way to discard them. Gigapede not only ensures these cards find a way into your graveyard, but that you are able to keep chaining dredgers or get that Black creature in the graveyard to feed Ichorids (etc.).

I'm going to try and see if I can find room for one or two in the main. I honestly think it's that good here.

[Klazam]

Another nice use of Gigapede is to constantly discard phantasmorgian. (Use phantasmorgian to discard Giga, GGT, something else, then get the Phantasmorgian back in the GY with the Giga, and dredge the troll, then do it again) The cycle described is a -1 card in hand each time you do it. Otherwise, you're just stuck with Phantasmorgian in hand waiting for another one to show up to discard the rest of your hand.

I'm the one who got 17th in the SCG open. I have to agree with Hollywood here- Gigapedes are very good in this deck. I found myself siding them in almost every match- but i'm not sure what to cut for Gigapedes...

Another note on this deck- I think with the increased popularity of Surgical Extraction as the graveyard hate of choice, this deck gains more power- it is very resilient to the extractions. You can also cabal therapy for surgical extraction game 2/3. Nobody thinks that you will do that, so is always caught off guard by it.

[jin]

Four Narcomoeba is a must, without a doubt.

I've actually played the list a few times and I don't think they are. Narcomaeba is immediate, but with Nether Shadow, I don't think they are too important. Nether Shadows come back and they are food for Ichorid. I think in the long grind out game, Nether Shadow is more important.

Narcomaeba is only necessary if you need to expode and win. Those turns, you usually have at least an Ichorid and/or Nether Shadow and/or zombies in play, so you only really need to hit 1-2 Narcomaebas so the 3 Narcomaebas make perfect sense..

[Klazam]

I think Nether Shadow, Ichorid, and Narcomoebas are equally important. You need a high percentage of creatures that come back from the graveyard.

[Michael Keller]

I've actually played the list a few times and I don't think they are. Narcomaeba is immediate, but with Nether Shadow, I don't think they are too important. Nether Shadows come back and they are food for Ichorid. I think in the long grind out game, Nether Shadow is more important.

Narcomaeba is only necessary if you need to expode and win. Those turns, you usually have at least an Ichorid and/or Nether Shadow and/or zombies in play, so you only really need to hit 1-2 Narcomaebas so the 3 Narcomaebas make perfect sense..

Narcomoeba - in all Dredge variants - should always be at a four-of. (You can also reference this article which goes in depth about Dredge invariables.)

Dredge in its most basic, fundamental construction requires you to be able to hit or chain Narcomoebas to accelerate your combo engine with Dread Return and Bridge from Below. The less Narcomoeba you run, the less chance you have of hitting one in any one of your dredges - and that's assuming you're not even dredging an 'Imp or Grave-Troll to begin with. They are the main facilitator of being able to win games faster; there's absolutely no question it's that important.

Running three Narcomoeba makes no sense. It's the backbone of an archetype predicated on direct synergy involved with just about every card in the deck. Manaless Dredge is far more reliant on its Dread Returns than its counterpart; once the engine is going, these (Narcomoeba and Bridge from Below) are the cards that lead to degenerate Dread Returns.

You run four.

[jin]

I think Nether Shadow, Ichorid, and Narcomoebas are equally important. You need a high percentage of creatures that come back from the graveyard.

I think that's why Narcomoeba is only a 3-of. Because you have Ichorid + Nether Shaodw to supplement him

Narcomoeba - in all Dredge variants - should always be at a four-of. (You can also reference this article which goes in depth about Dredge invariables.)

Dredge in its most basic, fundamental construction requires you to be able to hit or chain Narcomoebas to accelerate your combo engine with Dread Return and Bridge from Below. The less Narcomoeba you run, the less chance you have of hitting one in any one of your dredges - and that's assuming you're not even dredging an 'Imp or Grave-Troll to begin with. They are the main facilitator of being able to win games faster; there's absolutely no question it's that important.

Running three Narcomoeba makes no sense. It's the backbone of an archetype predicated on direct synergy involved with just about every card in the deck. Manaless Dredge is far more reliant on its Dread Returns than its counterpart; once the engine is going, these (Narcomoeba and Bridge from Below) are the cards that lead to degenerate Dread Returns.

You run four.

Well he ran three and he didn't do too poorly.

The fact of the matter is, Manaless Ichorid isn't only a combo deck anymore. It doesn't rely on the immediacy of Narcomaeba. You have cards like Ichorid and Nether Shadow to supplement him. In essence, you have 3 + 4 + 4 creatures you can Dread Return with. Nether Shadow just comes back easier and more consistantly than Narcomaeba. They are better for grinding out and they help you get Zombie tokens more reliably. With the cantrips, this deck can dredge really hard, so having 3 makes perfect sense.

The reason why Narcomaeba replaced Nether Shadow before is because that Ichroid deck was a pure combo deck. This isn't so much..

[NecroYawgmoth]

It's by no means and no way true that Ichorid was a pure combo deck before >.<

[KevinTrudeau]

I've actually played the list a few times and I don't think they are. Narcomaeba is immediate, but with Nether Shadow, I don't think they are too important. Nether Shadows come back and they are food for Ichorid. I think in the long grind out game, Nether Shadow is more important.

Narcomaeba is only necessary if you need to expode and win. Those turns, you usually have at least an Ichorid and/or Nether Shadow and/or zombies in play, so you only really need to hit 1-2 Narcomaebas so the 3 Narcomaebas make perfect sense..

I've played the list thousands of times and I think that they are. This is a Dread Return deck first and foremost, because the deck needs to be able to somehow beat decks faster than it if it wants to succeed at a large tournament. The grinding/resiliency aspect acts as a function of the Dread Return plan (Plan A) because it will naturally occur as the game plays out. You know what creature helps cast Dread Return the most? Our small-yet-deadly oceanic companion.

[jin]

It's by no means and no way true that Ichorid was a pure combo deck before >.<

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/v...id_Primer.html

Maybe Sutured Ghoul and Dragon Breath was before your time..

I've played the list thousands of times and I think that they are. This is a Dread Return deck first and foremost, because the deck needs to be able to somehow beat decks faster than it if it wants to succeed at a large tournament. The grinding/resiliency aspect acts as a function of the Dread Return plan (Plan A) because it will naturally occur as the game plays out. You know what creature helps cast Dread Return the most? Our small-yet-deadly oceanic companion.

I have to disagree. Manaless Ichorid, in nature, is about the Ichorid beats. The combo finish Dread Return is simply a bit more reach to finish the game. At least that's what I saw from Rasche's videos.. The only decks faster are storm combo decks, and you really aren't winning off the back of Dread Return unless you play Jin-Gitaxian. The plan is is always Ichorid beats. Given the chance to finish them off, you Dread Return.

The only reason why it runs so many Dread Returns is because it doesn't have Breakthrough to dig through the deck.

[Michael Keller]

Well he ran three and he's undefeated.

The fact of the matter is, Manaless Ichorid isn't only a combo deck anymore. It doesn't rely on the immediacy of Narcomaeba. You have cards like Ichorid and Nether Shadow to supplement him. In essence, you have 3 + 4 + 4 creatures you can Dread Return with. Nether Shadow just comes back easier and more consistantly than Narcomaeba. They are better for grinding out and they help you get Zombie tokens more reliably. With the cantrips, this deck can dredge really hard, so having 3 makes perfect sense.

The reason why Narcomaeba replaced Nether Shadow before is because that Ichroid deck was a pure combo deck. This isn't so much..

Just because he ran three Narcomoeba doesn't make it correct. In fact, the guy basically ran my build. It's a very powerful enabler that grants you the ability to even beat Combo (Storm, High Tide) a turn faster than you normally would if you only have two creatures available. The deck is tailored to grind games out, but the fact is the deck relies on a Combo finish to win games more thoroughly. There's no reason to short-change yourself when you can win the game a turn faster with a full set of Narcomoebas in your deck.

There have been a large number of people who have written about this and studied the intricacies of this deck over the years, and after playing the deck incessantly over the course of several months, I have come to that conclusion as well. I could lay out a ton of scenarios where Narcomoeba is a game-breaker, but it would just be rhetoric at this point. The 'grind 'em out' plan has already been established and works well, but you have to assume by the time you can obtain lethal damage, your opponent will already be ready to combo-out on you before you get the chance to kill them.

This is why Manaless runs a set of four Dread Return and Narcomoeba - to max out its ability to finish a game using the combo route in case damage on hand is not enough. Narcomoeba solidifies this strategy to a "T." The deck is hungry to gets creatures into play in any way that it can.

I see no reason to dilute a powerful strategy by cutting a card which facilitates not only your Dread Return package, but your Bridge from Belows with Cabal Therapies. Sometimes - remember - you don't want to attack with Ichorid if you have multiple Bridges, but to create an alpha-strike turn by simply letting them die.

Rausch's list was also seriously, seriously flawed. That much everyone can agree on. He just happened to surprise people who ran absolutely no graveyard hate in that event. Not to take anything away from the archetype itself, though.

[jin]

Just because he ran three Narcomoeba doesn't make it correct. In fact, the guy basically ran my build. It's a very powerful enabler that grants you the ability to even beat Combo (Storm, High Tide) a turn faster than you normally would if you only have two creatures available. The deck is tailored to grind games out, but the fact is the deck relies on a Combo finish to win games more thoroughly. There's no reason to short-change yourself when you can win the game a turn faster with a full set of Narcomoebas in your deck.

There have been a large number of people who have written about this and studied the intricacies of this deck over the years, and after playing the deck incessantly over the course of several months, I have come to that conclusion as well. I could lay out a ton of scenarios where Narcomoeba is a game-breaker, but it would just be rhetoric at this point. The 'grind 'em out' plan has already been established and works well, but you have to assume by the time you can obtain lethal damage, your opponent will already be ready to combo-out on you before you get the chance to kill them.

This is why Manaless runs a set of four Dread Return and Narcomoeba - to max out its ability to finish a game using the combo route in case damage on hand is not enough. Narcomoeba solidifies this strategy to a "T." The deck is hungry to gets creatures into play in any way that it can.

I see no reason to dilute a powerful strategy by cutting a card which facilitates not only your Dread Return package, but your Bridge from Belows with Cabal Therapies. Sometimes - remember - you don't want to attack with Ichorid if you have multiple Bridges, but to create an alpha-strike turn by simply letting them die.

Rausch's list was also seriously, seriously flawed. That much everyone can agree on. He just happened to surprise people who ran absolutely no graveyard hate in that event. Not to take anything away from the archetype itself, though.

Sorry if this is incoherent. I'm quite sleepy right now, but here goes:

Yes, I don't disagree with the immediacy of Narcomoeba. I just don't see that it is necessary to have the immediacy. The way you beat storm combo decks really isn't racing them. It's by destroying their hand, because even if you Dread Return, you really aren't going to kill them. The only thing that might come close is dredging your library into FKZ. Any other target is moot. Speaking from the Epic Storm's point of view alone, I can tell you that this is not a race in your favour.

Like I mentioned above, the multitude of Dread Returns isn't to maximize the Dread Return plan. It's really so you can hit one to finish off the opponent after a grind out. You don't have breakthrough to dig as hard.

Yes, given that you have multiple Bridges, your Narcomaoba explosion will be awesome. But given that you only have 1 Bridge, the recurring Nether Shadow is better because he simply makes more zombies.

I think your comment about Ichorid not swinging is really an overgeneralization. I mean given that the opponent has something like Meddling Mage or Gaddock Teeg or summoning sickness SFM, I think I"d still swing with Ichorid, if it'll allow me to win next turn. Yes, you don't have to tell me about building an alpha strike, I come from playing Vial Goblins. I know all about the alpha strike.

In the storm combo match up, their in it to race as well. You are racing against a Lamborghini in your BMW...

The point is, the deck is designed from the start with grinding out in mind. That is the plan A. If you don't see that, then you are playing this deck wrong. A deck that is in it to win through speed will not choose to draw. This is simple logic. The plan B is Dread Return which provides the deck with reach. Rasche preferred Iona, the other guy preferred FKZ.

Narcomoeba provides a lot of immediacy, but that is unnecessary in Manaless Ichorid because it is now more of an aggro-beat-down-grind-out type of deck rather than a spit-in-your-face-combo deck. It has the ability to explode and win turn 3 on the draw, but the main plan is still the Ichorid plan. The Nether Shadows help this because it not only provides consistent zombies, but it also provides a consistent 1/1 haster or what I like to call "little Ichorid". Believe me or not, but that's how Manaless is suppose to be like. If you want to explode and race storm combo, play Morressey's hybrid Dredge list or LED dredge. You won't race a storm deck with this one.

[NecroYawgmoth]

Friggorid was played 2006 in Extended already with Ichorid and Psychatog beats, backed up with Ashen Ghouls and Soul Shrieks in the old Legacy which was also 2006, way before the article...

Also, I thought you meant the definition combo about Ichorid in the current Legacy meta the last 2-3 years...

Still, combo, by classic definition is a deck which wins by a combination of cards, like ProsBloom does.
Some people call NO -> Prog a combo... But Dredge is not really a combo... it's more like an engine for the deck, but nowadays everything that is broken seems to count as "combo".

In my eyes, combo is something like... "I have these 2 or 3 cards, bam you're dead" and not something like: "I Mindtwist you, and create some Zombies to attack you next turn." Dredge has a pure Aggroplan, sometimes played passive, with Ichorid and Moeba beats each turn, sometimes really hard and aggressive with 27 Zombies and more... This is still no "combo".

[jin]

Friggorid was played 2006 in Extended already with Ichorid and Psychatog beats, backed up with Ashen Ghouls and Soul Shrieks in the old Legacy which was also 2006, way before the article...

Also, I thought you meant the definition combo about Ichorid in the current Legacy meta the last 2-3 years...

Still, combo, by classic definition is a deck which wins by a combination of cards, like ProsBloom does.
Some people call NO -> Prog a combo... But Dredge is not really a combo... it's more like an engine for the deck, but nowadays everything that is broken seems to count as "combo".

In my eyes, combo is something like... "I have these 2 or 3 cards, bam you're dead" and not something like: "I Mindtwist you, and create some Zombies to attack you next turn." Dredge has a pure Aggroplan, sometimes played passive, with Ichorid and Moeba beats each turn, sometimes really hard and aggressive with 27 Zombies and more... This is still no "combo".

Suttened Ghoul + Dragon Breath = 2 card combo.

It's not about how you get to the 2 card combo. Dredge is just an engine to get there like Ad Nauseam, Yawgmoth's Will. Mindtwist is just consequential.

[Michael Keller]

Yes, I don't disagree with the immediacy of Narcomoeba. I just don't see that it is necessary to have the immediacy. The way you beat storm combo decks really isn't racing them. It's by destroying their hand, because even if you Dread Return, you really aren't going to kill them. The only thing that might come close is dredging your library into FKZ. Any other target is moot. Speaking from the Epic Storm's point of view alone, I can tell you that this is not a race in your favour.

I think you're rambling a bit here. The deck's primary objective is to attack first and ask questions later. You aren't banking your entire game-plan on four discard spells before the third turn - you're looking to race their life total with attackers so you can neuter Ad Nauseam in the process.

I spent most of the better half of the last ten years playing against Bryant Cook in Syracuse on a weekly basis. Rest assured, the race isn't that far out of your favor as you'd think. T.E.S. has a much more fragile outlet of winning games in comparison to the general simplicity of ANT, and you can actually race Empty the Warrens as your creatures gain haste and ability to attack first - inherently forcing your opponent to block. The flip-side of this is dealing directly with Ad Nauseam, which I've already covered. T.E.S. also mulligans more aggressively than traditional ANT, and does not run Leyline of the Void (I'm not insinuating all ANT builds do, but there are some that opt to run graveyard hate).

Like I mentioned above, the multitude of Dread Returns isn't to maximize the Dread Return plan. It's really so you can hit one to finish off the opponent after a grind out. You don't have breakthrough to dig as hard.

A "grind out" is rather vague. If you're implying an attack or two with an Ichorid and Nether Shadow, that still doesn't win you the game. No one should have to go into detail explaining what a 'combo' is here, so we can safely say that no matter what time you opt to play Dread Return, it still should ice the game and either win the game outright, or effectively end the game for all intents and purposes.

Yes, given that you have multiple Bridges, your Narcomaoba explosion will be awesome. But given that you only have 1 Bridge, the recurring Nether Shadow is better because he simply makes more zombies.

I'm a little confused here; in what way does a Nether Shadow make more Zombies than a Narcomoeba? Both do not leave play at the end of turn and both make tokens when they die. Nether Shadow's recursion factor is rather moot; by the time you're able to re-re-recur Nether Shadow, the game should be on ice. Nether Shadow is also more conditional than Narcomoeba - more often than not.

I think your comment about Ichorid not swinging is really an overgeneralization. I mean given that the opponent has something like Meddling Mage or Gaddock Teeg or summoning sickness SFM, I think I"d still swing with Ichorid, if it'll allow me to win next turn. Yes, you don't have to tell me about building an alpha strike, I come from playing Vial Goblins. I know all about the alpha strike.

Vial Goblins and Dredge are two completely different archetypes with two completely varying strategies regarding phase structure and the Attack Step - so we can pretty much describe this as a moot point. The similarities in which you're trying to parallel only derive from the strategic inference of attacking or not attacking with Ichorid. You obviously weigh your options at this point, but you're completely forgoing in your response that Manaless Dredge is non-interactive and that Goblins is. That completely changes the perplexity of these two archetypes in contrast.

In the storm combo match up, their in it to race as well. You are racing against a Lamborghini in your BMW...

You're talking to someone who has won sets of Blue Dual Lands with Polar Kraken, so maybe it's just me but it's not about how you race it but how you play it.

The point is, the deck is designed from the start with grinding out in mind. That is the plan A. If you don't see that, then you are playing this deck wrong. A deck that is in it to win through speed will not choose to draw. This is simple logic. The plan B is Dread Return which provides the deck with reach. Rasche preferred Iona, the other guy preferred FKZ.

I never disagreed with you on this point. However, if you think that basing your entire strategy around simply "grinding out" wins through the Attack Step is optimal when you have fourteen to eighteen cards dedicated to another potent strategy (the Dread Return plan), then you are wrong.

Narcomoeba provides a lot of immediacy, but that is unnecessary in Manaless Ichorid because it is now more of an aggro-beat-down-grind-out type of deck rather than a spit-in-your-face-combo deck. It has the ability to explode and win turn 3 on the draw, but the main plan is still the Ichorid plan. The Nether Shadows help this because it not only provides consistent zombies, but it also provides a consistent 1/1 haster or what I like to call "little Ichorid". Believe me or not, but that's how Manaless is suppose to be like. If you want to explode and race storm combo, play Morressey's hybrid Dredge list or LED dredge. You won't race a storm deck with this one.

Immediacy, what you are not understanding, is what makes winning *now* more consistent and prevalent to this whole discussion. Nether Shadow does not come into play once it hits the graveyard, which is actually very relevant against Storm. It's completely foolish to think otherwise. Have you not even looked at my sideboard - or the sideboard of the deck that went undefeated at the Grand Prix on Day One?

Chancellor of the Annex backed by a solid beat-down plan - with supplemental discard - is just a thrashing to Storm. And try and tell me that Dread Returning a Chancellor is bad against Storm, which is by far not out of the question. It's still a bad match-up, but you are completely off-base in your assumption you can't race them - especially when factoring in things like mulligans and poor draws.

I've raced - and beaten - Storm with Manaless Dredge. You have a lot more outs and lines of play than you think you do, as I think you're not paying a little closer attention to the intricacies of the deck strategically. Trying to 'pawn off' my analysis to a mana-based Dredge build or hybrid list is just moot - the discussion here is about Manaless Dredge and the fact that it can race Storm using a critical set of Narcomoebas.

[KevinTrudeau]

Sorry if this is incoherent. I'm quite sleepy right now, but here goes:

Yes, I don't disagree with the immediacy of Narcomoeba. I just don't see that it is necessary to have the immediacy. The way you beat storm combo decks really isn't racing them. It's by destroying their hand, because even if you Dread Return, you really aren't going to kill them. The only thing that might come close is dredging your library into FKZ. Any other target is moot. Speaking from the Epic Storm's point of view alone, I can tell you that this is not a race in your favour.

Like I mentioned above, the multitude of Dread Returns isn't to maximize the Dread Return plan. It's really so you can hit one to finish off the opponent after a grind out. You don't have breakthrough to dig as hard.

Yes, given that you have multiple Bridges, your Narcomaoba explosion will be awesome. But given that you only have 1 Bridge, the recurring Nether Shadow is better because he simply makes more zombies.

I think your comment about Ichorid not swinging is really an overgeneralization. I mean given that the opponent has something like Meddling Mage or Gaddock Teeg or summoning sickness SFM, I think I"d still swing with Ichorid, if it'll allow me to win next turn. Yes, you don't have to tell me about building an alpha strike, I come from playing Vial Goblins. I know all about the alpha strike.

In the storm combo match up, their in it to race as well. You are racing against a Lamborghini in your BMW...

Narcomoeba's immediacy is NOT unnecessary. You will have a much harder time defeating faster decks without running all four. It's that simple. I can tell you're arguing from conjecture rather than experience, which is making this all the more infuriating for me.

A deck that is in it to win through speed will not choose to draw. This is simple logic.

This deck is faster on average than traditional Breakthrough Dredge.

I'll make a more fleshed-out response tonight when I have time.

@Hollywood- have you considered incorporating LED into your seventy-five yet?