[Deck] Team Italia

[from Cairo]

Guys - Could anyone explain me why you arent playing Deadguy Ale? Its like only Grim Lavamancer and sometimes Bolt to add + a more instable manabase...

Grim, Lightning Bolt and REB/Pyroblast. It's the same cards UW Stoneblade sometimes splash Red for. The first 2 provide some reach and buff the agro matches while not being blanks against non-creature based strategies and the blasts buff the control match. This list tends to get a bit more utility/versatility out of it's cards.

Though to be fair I think the printing of Liliana of the Veil helped Deadguy considerably in versatility department, giving it an extra set of edict effects or a way to continue to apply hand pressure. The deck still kind of lacks a supplemental good 1cc Black creature to curve out with in my opinion.

I'm using Basilisk Collar in modern, because I don't have Jitte available. The synergy with Grim Lavamancer is pretty good, and it can be a singleton in your sideboard. The low cost makes it easy to tutor and play the same turn, without needing to rely on the cheaty effect of Mystic.

I ran Collar with Mental Misstep when it was legal in this deck. The combo with Grim came online a few times, it's good, but a 1/1 is just so easy to nuke and Collar otherwise doesn't add a whole lot to one's clock. I think it's passable with Mirran Crusader since you get a Doublestrike Deathtoucher, but generally speaking I think I want my equipment to do more, even if it costs more.

I think the Tops + Bobs is what makes your deck so damn good. It's a powerful engine that can really make your early-mid game really solid.

Totally agree, a few people have said to drop Top, but I think 2x is really solid especially with 10+ fetches and Stoneforge Mystic. One can really keep pressure up with this card in the list. I haven't seen anyone argue against Bob.

So, from other TI players, if you had 3 Lightning Bolts, Swords to Plowshares, and Hymn to Tourachs, which one would you rather run 4 of?

I hope I'm not being a troll here (I only play TI in modern) but I wouldn't 4-up on Hymn...the double black is somewhat problematic depending on your mix of cards in your hand. I would probably go with 4 Lightning Bolts. They are good at any stage in the game and improve your reach slightly. Given Bob and Tops, 3 Swords should be ok (considering the 4-shot of Vindicate and the high density of disruption/tempo denial options).

@Kich867: With 9 slots to fill between Hymn, Swords and Bolts - I'd max Hymn. It's the only one that provides card advantage and it's at it's best when you see in your opening 7-9 cards. Early double Black shouldn't be much of an issue. I generally grab Badlands and Scrubland as my first 2 duals anyway. Given 9 slots I would run 4 Hymn to Torach, 3 Lightning Bolt, 2 Swords to Plowshares. The Bolts and Swords gives 5 slots to answer turn 1 guys - Nacatl, Delver, Lackey, and early must kills SFM, Bob, etc. Midgame you have 4 Vindicate and 2 Swords to Plowshares to deal with Knight of the Reliquary or Merfolk lords, what have you.

Last thought, and Mr. Troll Safety will go away: Is there a reason (beyond Grim Lavamancer) that 2x Tombstalker isn't used in Team Italia?

Dark Confidant and as you mention Grim both don't play well with Tombstalker. I think the Equipment plan is a more resilient win condition as we don't have much to protect Tombstalker from topdecked removal. Tombstalker also doesn't offer any utility to the deck, it's really just a clock, where most of the guys and spells this deck has apply some disruption or card advantage and on a controlled board with a piece of equipment can seal the game just as well.

[Kich867]

I believe it was the deadguy ale thread, before I knew my deck was team italia I took mass influence from dead guy ale, death and taxes, patriot, etc.

The deck doesn't win quite as quickly as I would want it to right now, which I'm not sure how I feel about it. I feel like I'm playing a mid range control deck without the mid-range creatures. Stillmoon is good, but often feels unimpressive--whether he is I'm not so sure, but he doesn't have that splash that I want. Mirran Crusader might since he wins in 2 turns with equipment and mauls but I'm not sure...when things like Tarmogoyf, Tombstalker, Delver, Clique, and KOTR walk around all of my creatures feel inferior (albeit, I have the means to kill them all, but when I don't, it sucks).

[Mr. Safety]

I ran Collar with Mental Misstep when it was legal in this deck. The combo with Grim came online a few times, it's good, but a 1/1 is just so easy to nuke and Collar otherwise doesn't add a whole lot to one's clock. I think it's passable with Mirran Crusader since you get a Doublestrike Deathtoucher, but generally speaking I think I want my equipment to do more, even if it costs more.

Totally agree...I use Collar in modern out of neccessity, along with Sword of F&I and Batterskull (along with Steelshaper's Gift. It's no Mystic, but it makes it all come together.)

@Kich867: With 9 slots to fill between Hymn, Swords and Bolts - I'd max Hymn. It's the only one that provides card advantage and it's at it's best when you see in your opening 7-9 cards. Early double Black shouldn't be much of an issue. I generally grab Badlands and Scrubland as my first 2 duals anyway. Given 9 slots I would run 4 Hymn to Torach, 3 Lightning Bolt, 2 Swords to Plowshares. The Bolts and Swords gives 5 slots to answer turn 1 guys - Nacatl, Delver, Lackey, and early must kills SFM, Bob, etc. Midgame you have 4 Vindicate and 2 Swords to Plowshares to deal with Knight of the Reliquary or Merfolk lords, what have you.

I have found Lightning Bolt to be a much better mid-late game top-deck. Hymn, as you say, is golden in the early game. Late game, it loses a lot of gas, and can even be a dead card. I figured Bolt is always useful, max out on it. Hymn is great, but you also have Bob for card advantage (and he is definately better.) I'm not saying Hymn is bad, I would just personally stick with 3 copies and go with 4 Bolts.

Dark Confidant and as you mention Grim both don't play well with Tombstalker.

You didn't see my edit, lol...

EDIT: That must have been retard coffee I drank this morning...although, I should never blame something so pure as coffee for me being a dumbass.

[Kich867]

I'm feeling like this deck needs a more aggressive creature base. Two things that white and red offer (mostly white) are Mom and cheap Double Strike creatures.

Namely, Boros Swiftblade and Mirran Crusader. I feel that Mirran Crusader is the obvious choice between the two, but Boros Swiftblade being so cheap is definitely something worth considering. In either case, you can kill someone in two turns with a Jitte-- Boros Swiftblade hits for 6 with combat tricks, then next turn hits for 14 with combat tricks. Crusader just trucks through like a boss even harder.

I like that Boros is 1 mana cheaper and easier on mana types to cast, but Crusader being 1 more mana hits twice as hard and has protection from two absurdly relevant colors by himself--this also leaves Mom open to only have to give prot vs white or red spot removal.

I feel like also removing Batterskull from the deck in favor of SoFaI, getting SFM removed after a batterskull pull feels awful. He's a champ when he's down but he's often too late and while he's a solid clock, I'd rather pull a jitte on turn 2, drop crusader on turn 3, flash in jitte and equip on turn 4, and end the game on turn 5.


//Creatures: 17
3x Mother of Runes
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Dark Confidant
3x Grim Lavamancer
3x Mirran Crusader

//Spells: 18
4x Vindicate
4x Duress
3x Lightning Bolt
3x Swords to Plowshares
4x Hymn to Tourach

//Artifacts: 4
2x Engineered Explosives
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Umezawa's Jitte

//Lands: 21
4x Wasteland
2x Badlands
3x Scrubland
2x Plateau
4x Marsh Flats
3x Arid Mesa
1x Plains
1x Mountain
1x Swamp

I'll be playtesting this list tonight.

[Mr. Safety]

Mirran Crusader seems decent. Better initial gain than Stillmoon Cavalier.

How do you feel about Sulfuric Vortex in this deck?

[Kich867]

Mirran Crusader seems decent. Better initial gain than Stillmoon Cavalier.

How do you feel about Sulfuric Vortex in this deck?

Given that I dropped batterskull, maybe, to offset Swords to Plowshares and pick away at them, but it certainly seems very slow and potentially harmful. Jitte can't give us life back and if you run batterskull, his lifelink is quite nice.

[from Cairo]

I could see Sulfuric Vortex in the Sb against control and I suppose Tendrils. Versus fast agro and probably most midrange decks it seems slow and doesn't apply enough pressure.

Out of curiosity what are people Sbing for this deck these days? Last page has been all 60 card lists.

Last I had was:

2 Surgical Extraction
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Dark Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Perish
1 Nature's Ruin

[KobeBryan]

My meta has LOTS of reanimators/dredge

2 extirpates
2 faerie macrebe
1 tormod's crypt
4 red elemental blasts
2 ethersworn cannonists
2 engineered explosives
2 diabolic edict

[Mr. Safety]

I could see Sulfuric Vortex in the Sb against control and I suppose Tendrils. Versus fast agro and probably most midrange decks it seems slow and doesn't apply enough pressure.

This is what I was thinking. I wasn't suggesting it for maindeck, but rather as a source of inevitability in the control/combo matchups.

I was thinking in the aggro matchup it would be decent as well, allowing you to Swords for and no lifegain. It turns off Batterskull, but it allows you to advance the game while you pick off their threats. I see quite a bit of aggro on MWS, enough to make Engineered Explosives a maindeck inclusion and sideboarded Firespout.

[ThoSha]

Hey guys! How would you think that Champion of the Parish would fit into this deck? I thought about a build moving Thoughtseize/Duress/IoK into the SB, making room for 21 Creatures with a Human theme. The first thing that went into my eye by checking this deck out was that it consisted of Human creatures only except the SFMs ofc. Would anyone give him a try?

[Kich867]

Hey guys! How would you think that Champion of the Parish would fit into this deck? I thought about a build moving Thoughtseize/Duress/IoK into the SB, making room for 21 Creatures with a Human theme. The first thing that went into my eye by checking this deck out was that it consisted of Human creatures only except the SFMs ofc. Would anyone give him a try?

If you rep out the search function, we discussed that card briefly previously. I think the overall consensus was it was too slow and needs to be played early, I feel if you wanted a creature like that Figure of Destiny would generally be better.

I can however, test it later tonight and post my findings, I'll try a more creature centric build like you suggested.

[from Cairo]

I think the overall consensus was it was too slow and needs to be played early, I feel if you wanted a creature like that Figure of Destiny would generally be better.

Totally. The thought crossed my mind as well, but he's a horrendous top deck and offers no utility, and even when he's in your opening 7 if MoR or Grim are as well he's competing against better drops that you want to get active.

[Mr. Safety]

Totally. The thought crossed my mind as well, but he's a horrendous top deck and offers no utility, and even when he's in your opening 7 if MoR or Grim are as well he's competing against better drops that you want to get active.

I respectfully disagree...I think he's a decent top-deck in the late game. You typically don't have mana issues at that stage in the game. Early game, Figure fights for the same timing as other (better) tempo-oriented plays you could be making.

I wouldn't suggest more than 3 Figure of Destiny, and 2 is probably closer to right. This is just my opinon.

I'd be curious about Serra Avenger, actually. It seems like a much better threat than Figure of Destiny and lands in the same 'time zone' that you would want Figure. Thoughts?

[from Cairo]

I respectfully disagree...I think he's a decent top-deck in the late game. You typically don't have mana issues at that stage in the game. Early game, Figure fights for the same timing as other (better) tempo-oriented plays you could be making.

I wouldn't suggest more than 3 Figure of Destiny, and 2 is probably closer to right. This is just my opinon.

I'd be curious about Serra Avenger, actually. It seems like a much better threat than Figure of Destiny and lands in the same 'time zone' that you would want Figure. Thoughts?

I was talking about Champion of the Parish being bad in the deck. ThoSha mentioned it, and Kish867 replied saying FoD is "generally better", and I agreed with "Totally...". I think between Grim, Mom, Top, and discard/removal - there isn't a strong need for another 1cc guy, for a mid game card I still feel Mirran Crusader beats out competition (FoD, Avenger, etc.).

[Mr. Safety]

I was talking about Champion of the Parish being bad in the deck. ThoSha mentioned it, and Kish867 replied saying FoD is "generally better", and I agreed with "Totally...". I think between Grim, Mom, Top, and discard/removal - there isn't a strong need for another 1cc guy, for a mid game card I still feel Mirran Crusader beats out competition (FoD, Avenger, etc.).

Gotcha. I agree, MC is pretty badass and outclasses all of the mentioned options. I still have a somewhat soft-spot for Serra Avenger...only because of the flying and vigilance factors. She's a house when equipped, and still a decent 3-power clock unequipped.

[Kich867]

I respectfully disagree...I think he's a decent top-deck in the late game. You typically don't have mana issues at that stage in the game. Early game, Figure fights for the same timing as other (better) tempo-oriented plays you could be making.

I wouldn't suggest more than 3 Figure of Destiny, and 2 is probably closer to right. This is just my opinon.

I'd be curious about Serra Avenger, actually. It seems like a much better threat than Figure of Destiny and lands in the same 'time zone' that you would want Figure. Thoughts?

I tested Serra Avenger extensively with mixed results. When you see her in your opening hand, not being able to play her until turn 4 is actually quite cumbersome. She won't be attacking until turn 5, which sucks. When she's on the field, she's quite good. With an equipment, she can effectively attack and defend simultaneously which is awesome. But the lack of being able to play her turns 1-3 is hurtful.

The more I play TI I do feel the pains of not having legitimate protection (prevention != protection) or legitimate beaters. This is something that bothers me greatly, as is not having a legitimate beater.

We don't run any creatures that are outside of bolt range except for possibly batterskull and he's quite slow, we effectively play him turn 3, but only if SFM doesn't die / BS doesn't get cliqued out of our hand.

We run what is effectively a mid-range control strategy with no protection, only disruption and removal, so we need threats that are harder to deal with. I'm going to try taking the deck into a very different direction and playtest it for a few days, I may have a brief first-impression report tonight after playing some cockatrice with it.

We'll see what happens.

[Mr. Safety]

I may be speaking heresy here, but if that's your impression (one I agree with) then it's time to drop Bob and play Tombstalker. Night's Whisper and Sign in Blood can create some card draw for you, and has a much more immediate effect on the game. Playing TI in modern, I opted for Tombstalker early on instead of Bob...because of the prevalence of Grove/P-Fires, Grim Lavamancer, and zoo's cheap removals.

I suppose Rebuff the Wicked or Dawn Charm could be used to protect your threats...but blah, bad cards.

[ThoSha]

I see your thoughts on Champion of the Parish, but i wouldn't run Figure of Destiny either. Duress is just fine i guess.

On protection, i played Apostle's Blessing to great success in my Boros deck, i think it could also have a home in here. It basically reads: [1], counter target removal spell, you lose 2 life.

[Mr. Safety]

I am mildly curious about Mana Tithe...the problem is the neccessity of black early in the game. Still, fetching a Scrubland shouldn't be a problem so you can either play Thoughtsieze proactively or Mana Tithe reactively. The other problem is that it sucks late game. The surprise factor has something to it, though...because I don't think many opponents are afraid to tap-out against TI.

[from Cairo]

A couple other possibilities for dealing with removal or getting our utility guys active would be running Aether Vial. Giving us the ability to vial out Grim or MoR during end step and reducing the window of opportunity for the opponent to Bolt or StP them before they get at least one activation.

On the Apostle's Blessing / Rebuff the Wicked side of things there's also Shining Shoal or Reverent Mantra that could be considered if the list is pretty White heavy.