@Gui: Could you share your hybrid list with us?
Honestly, I don't see that huge advantage on Phantasmagorian. Seriously, he allow us to discard business even while DDD'ing, also feeds Ichorid, and that's all. If you choose to be on the draw with the Usual list, of course you can only discard the dredger per turn until you can cast a spell, but you can also be on the play if you want to, or if your opponent wants to.
Of course Gorian helps, but is it worth removing 4 discard outlets? I don't think the Usual list is that bad at DDD.
This is what I'm up to, on the DDD lists field:Originally Posted by Mojeh
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
3 Tarnished Citadel
2 Phantasmagorian
4 Street Wraith
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
2 Darkblast
4 Bridge from Below
4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
1 Dread Return
I agree, 'Gorian is not nuts. It's just really good on DDD version because it works as if you dredged a dredger, the best you got available, and if you don't need it, you pitch it for Ichorid. What I like most about this list is the ability to abuse Ichorids in unfair ways, and to accelerate with SW. Note that this list has a high chance of cast a draw spell during its second turn, so it's not as slow as one might think.
EDIT:
Just wanna add something about Draw vs. Play for the lists running Firestorm (and Darkblasts). To be on the draw against an aggro deck, if you have Firestorm or darkblast to kill their T1 guy, this is a huge move. I think this makes up to their "extra turn".
If you fail to explain the reason behind your choice, technically, it's the wrong choice.
Zerk Thread -- Really, fun deck! ^^
I strongly suggest the 2nd DR in the main. Flashback/Sacrifice outlets are extremely important to the deck. Even if DR didn't do anything other than flashback with a sacrifice cost, it would probably be worth running. 2-DR's help you reach that critical mass of ways to abuse Bridge, but it also gives you options you wouldn't have otherwise. I regularly win games in virtue of GGT, and even DR Stinkweed to survive/control the board in a non-trivial number of cases. There are plenty of corner cases where we also need to DR PImp/Tribe, Thug, or Narco. Furthermore, having the 2nd DR main is basically 'pre-boarding' when you do want a DR-target, giving you at least another slot in the sb.
peace,
4eak
Although I agree with this, and for the general lists I have been using 2DRs since forever, I can count on my hands the number of times I won (at least g1) due to DR with the list above using 2DR in the main. Ichorids does a lot of the hard work in this list, and they die to themselves, and I want to test -1DR because I believe 4 therapy + 1DR as sac outlet for moebas could be enough.
Maybe you tested 1DR more than I did already, and it shows the opposite?
If you fail to explain the reason behind your choice, technically, it's the wrong choice.
Zerk Thread -- Really, fun deck! ^^
I agree.
I don't know how to quote multiple times, but about your last paragraph of the post with the DDD list: If you are okay with play firestorm and put yourself on the draw, why change to this DDD list? I mean, I really like to DDD, but I also like having PImp in order to have the freedom to be on the play if I want to, also, PImp is great fighting Relic and Tormod.
Btw, I am seriously thinking about Tireless Tribe in Sideboard. If I could get 2 or 3 slots I would absolutely gonna play them to fight Relic. Do you think it's exaggerated?
I share this doubt. It comes up to "Firestorm + Pimp" vs "Street Wraith + 'Gorian + Ichorid and be on the draw"
Without the need of discard outlets, I can get more insanely consistant hands, where I just need 3 parts to combo. With Firestorm and PImps, I can be on the play, and firestorm is a good reason on its own. With the DDD list, I manage to have a better and faster usage of Ichorids, and a higher chance to hit all combo parts against combo.
I still didn't decide which one is the best option.
If you fail to explain the reason behind your choice, technically, it's the wrong choice.
Zerk Thread -- Really, fun deck! ^^
Hum... I see...
Well, for now I am going to stick with Firestorms and PImps, I'll let you know my experiences.
Do people not play Tormod's Crypt where you are? Putrid Imp and Tireless Tribe are hands down the best card for fighting one-shot graveyard removal.
Magic Level 3 Judge
Southern USA Regional Coordinator
Couldn't agree more. Dredge mechanic is totally broken, and choosing the one who suits your need for speed or consistency is metagame depandant or style dependant.
But for fighting hate (which SHOULD BE dredge's concern #1), the PImp/Tribe setup is by far the most resilient. Without hate, this deck just wins. Doesn't really counts wether it was ten 2/2 Zombies + Ichorids, or a fat GGT, or even FKZ returned.
Doesn't matter which build you take, there isn't a best decklist. If you have a tuned list that still dies for a Crypt/Leyline of the Void, you failed as bad as a list with 5 DR targets main deck.
Dredge wins because the deck is broken, and the only thing you should worry, is to fight against the correct kinds of hate, and acquire knowledge of the field to hit Cabal Therapy in good percentages. Everything else is pure fashion.
Let your Dredge 6 be: Narco, Narco, Narco, Bridge, Bridge, Dread Return
I assumed people who played maindeck Firestorm just switched it with Tribe. I don't mind Tribe in the board if you're playing Firestorm main at all.
My Sideboard look like this:
4x Chain of Vapor
3x Ancient Grudge
2x Ray of Revelation
1x Dread Return
1x Iona
1x FKZ
1x Sadistic Hypnotist
1x Elesh Norn
1x Angel of Despair
The only flexible slot I can think is FKZ, and I'd need about 3 slots to fit Tireless Tribe. That's the problem.
Perhaps the flexible slot is Sadistic Hypnotist. To have him return, you should already have hit a Breakthrough or a Cephalid Coliseum. In that case, you already have plenty of Cabal Therapy in the graveyard, which should be enough to deal with any combo. Just study how combo works (mostly Hive Mind and ANT/TES) and you'll know what piece to name in every occasion.
I'd go for +1 Elesh Norn -1 Hypnotist from that sideboard.
Let your Dredge 6 be: Narco, Narco, Narco, Bridge, Bridge, Dread Return
@Vandalize: Thanks for your opinion. Well, I usually prefer Hypnotist over FKZ, because it's less dependent on bridges for the combo matchup. I mean, if you have Hypnotist and one more creature, you can at least discard 4 cards from your opponent where a Zealot would do nothing relevant. Furthermore, it's black (can be pitched for Ichorid, as a last resource) and do not suffer to Echoing Truth that much.
On Elesh Norn, I really like her too, but in what matchups I should play more than 1? I just can't see that need with 4 maindecked Firestorm.
Plenty is not the word you were looking for here. Sadistic is miles better than fkz against any combo, exactly because the odd are that you have 1 or 2 therapies by the time you hit a Sadistic or FKZ, and sadistic can actually do something else than die if you just have 1-2 creatures in the board after the DR. Discarding their whole hand is usually gamebreaker against any combo.
IMO, FKZ is not needed in your board, Mojeh. But I'm not sure if Tireless is what you are looking for on its spot. Maybe just 4 grudges?
If you fail to explain the reason behind your choice, technically, it's the wrong choice.
Zerk Thread -- Really, fun deck! ^^
@Gui: Yeah, that's an option, or maybe a Darkblast. I am more inclined to Darkblast actually.
Hey folks,
I don't know if it has already been braught up, but Surgical Extraction has seen much more play since the printing of Delver of Secrets and especially Snapcaster Mage, Crypts and Relics seem to be played less.
Memory's journey seems to be a good answer against Extraction since good players won't use Extraction on a Dredger in the early state of the game in most cases and will wait for more juicy targets like Ichorids or Bridges.
Memory's journey can save your important graveyard cards from being removed.
It also randomly improves matchups against other graveyard-dependant decks like Dredge and Reanimator.
Discuss.
Yeah, it has been brought up before and most people agreed that it's an okay card as a 2- or 3-off if you expect loads of Surgical Extractions plus Snapcaster Mages and/or Reanimator decks, but pretty much useless otherwise.
I Topped today on small local tournament with old good fashion list:
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Putrid Imp
4 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough
1 Deep Analysis
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
4 Narcomoeba
2 Dread Return
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Sphinx of the Lost Truths
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
3 City of Brass
2 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Darkblast
//SB
4 Firestorm
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Darkblast
3 Nature's Claim
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Angel of Despair
1 Ichorid
I faced:
Game one Goblins R/b 2-0 - Goblin pilot not playing too well
Game two Punishing Maverick - Quite Epic Game -Game one was fast win with Breakt+LED on turn 0.. He won game two with fast Ooze connected with two Crypts(not having nuts in my hand), Game three was worth even watching, he had Scryb Ranger Crypt, Ooze and Mom who had SS. I blow up crypt then go off with Elesh Norn connected with Darkblast - epic game in resp to Ooze ability with Cephalid Colioseum.
Game three against Mono W Painter with Scepter Chant combo, Maindeck E.Tutors, Humility, Ensarning Bridge, Moat.. and 2 Crypts, 2 Relics on SB. I get all of them and.. Won that was one of the best game ever played against so much hate deck I just drew all mine anti-hate cards, and played it well, for sad one - it was draw at the end, time run to the end and finished 1-1-1.. really sad.
Game four against CB-Thopter with MD Ensnaring Bridge and Humility - Thought MU had poor draws he had nuts. He assembly combo at turn 3 with FoW+Blue card and StP.. Easy win for him. Second one was similar but I didn't draw/dredge answer for Ensnaring Bridge, two turns later he found CB.. again lost.
Game five - Junk with 3 MD Deeds - this one was easy, he only had Extripates, I lost Ichorids, he lost all his life and hand after DR Gigantic troll with a lot of tokens for Cabal Therapies.
In top I faced Punishing Maverick from Swiss, Game was similar to this on swiss easy win game one with LED+Breakt, then game two I didn't find answer for fast ooze with Crypt and Mom, then game 3 was disgusting, I dredged 16 cards and didn't find anything revelant all lands few antihate cards and draw spells no Cabals, DR, Moeba
s, Ichorids.. nothing sad but true - ended tournament.
Normally I was playing dredge about more than half year ago last time. It was really funny to have some scary face after I pull up Turn 0 LED+Breakt when normally playing Maverick ^^.
After tournament I think that Firestorm is perfect answer for scavenging Ooze which is really house against Dredge (also connected with regular GY cleaner like bojuka/Crypt/Relics)
Definitively, LED dredge is amazing. What can you say about cutting 1 Thug for 1 Darkblast?
Wouldn't it be the opposite? I mean, if you go below 2 Thugs, you'll have a hard time recurring Ichorids.
And yeah, LED is amazing, haha.
EDIT: Made a really incredible/lucky play today... I had a pretty good gy position, 2 Zombies and 2 Gemstone Mines in play. I was facing Canadian Threshold with 4 Lands, a Goyf, and a unflipped Delver of Secrets. He draws a Surgical Extraction off his Library, and removes my Bridges and snapcast it for Ichorids (after that, his hand is empty). I dredged that turn and found my Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite. Played Narcomoeba from hand and recovered my Elesh Norn, killing Delver + Snapcaster and leaving goyf as a 2/3 cripple. Next turn, he makes some thinking, and passes. I think a LOT before dredging, and decide do dredge a Darkblast. He stares at my dredging and shakes my hand... He was holding a Dismember, if he could block with Goyf, he could dismember my Elesh Norn, and I wouldn't be able to finish him with only 2 Narcomoeba left in the library (he had 8 life).
Last edited by Vandalize; 11-07-2011 at 07:30 PM.
Let your Dredge 6 be: Narco, Narco, Narco, Bridge, Bridge, Dread Return
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