[Deck] Solitaire (Enchantress)

[Hoojo]

I run a list very close to Spatula's:

-2 Green Sun's Zenith
+1 Sterling Grove
+1 Ground Seal

I'll give it a whirl with the full set of Zenith's, but I really like the Draw and Tutor power of the extra Grove and Seal.

The biggest complaint I have with the bulk of the lists being presented is the reliance on white when your acceleration and enchantresses are all green. The heavy reliance on white silver bullets puts the deck in the awkward position of being a mediocre control deck with a combo finish.

[lordofthepit]

Thinking of playing this deck at some point, although I have no experience at all with it.

Are Moats required? I generally tend to prefer Humility in board-control type decks anyway, but that seems awful with Argothian Enchantress.

[Hoojo]

Thinking of playing this deck at some point, although I have no experience at all with it.

Are Moats required? I generally tend to prefer Humility in board-control type decks anyway, but that seems awful with Argothian Enchantress.

I personally don't think so; Elephant Grass does a fine job on its own. Humility is bad with Argothian Enchantress, but the deck really doesn't need either.

[caiomarcos]

I personally don't think so; Elephant Grass does a fine job on its own. Humility is bad with Argothian Enchantress, but the deck really doesn't need either.

Unfortunately the deck does need Moat. Of course you can play without one, but then you won't be playing the best build possible.

[Kring]

As said, many many many many many times on this thread: Moat is awesome. You could play the deck without it, but it would suck.

[Dark Ritual]

Moat is sweet because when it resolves you get infinite time to do whatever. It's the easy button or the oh shit button when solitary would fail since you don't have enough enchantress's/enchantments to support it. I played this deck for awhile without moat due to budget constraints and when I added moat it got noticeably better. Humility is no replacement. There isn't really a replacement at all when it comes to moat since it's functionally unique and teferi's moat is just awful.

[Hoojo]

My point is, you shouldn't need to cast a 2WW enchantment and have it stay on the board to be able to win with this deck. I think the silver bullet approach is incorrect.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

This deck has never needed Moat. Moat is a crutch-card that encourages lazy decision making.

[GoldenCid]

Generally, after that kind of statements a strong justification is expected.

[Kring]

This deck has never needed Moat. Moat is a crutch-card that encourages lazy decision making.

Can´t really agree with you.... why not run a card that wins games by itself, when all the others in this deck need the backup of something?

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Can´t really agree with you.... why not run a card that wins games by itself, when all the others in this deck need the backup of something?

Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Grim Lavamancer, Qasali Pridemage, Lightning Bolt, Delver of Secrets, Vendilion Clique, Spellshutter Sprite, Coralhelm Commander, Kira, etc.

Every deck has answers to Moat. Every single deck. It's foolish to play Moat in place of cards that supplement the deck's engine, because most of the time you CAN'T "win" just by playing Moat. When you focus on the deck's engine, you're much more likely to set up situations where they can't randomly play an out.

[Kring]

Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Grim Lavamancer, Qasali Pridemage, Lightning Bolt, Delver of Secrets, Vendilion Clique, Spellshutter Sprite, Coralhelm Commander, Kira, etc.

Every deck has answers to Moat. Every single deck.

Erm... no. Every deck CAN have some cards that are not affected by it, but until all aggro decks pack 24 flyers, you cannot possibly try to argue that moat does not cripple IMMENSELY, not mentioning win the game right on the spot. Makes the opponent look for 4 cards in his whole deck to even try to kill you.
This argument has been done to death.
Lol burn, as if we hadn´t a bazilion ways to shroud us from direct damage to face.

[Hoojo]

Moat doesn't win by itself. You still have to win after it is played, therefore, your argument holds less weight than the fact that every other deck has a way of winning through a Moat.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Erm... no. Every deck CAN have some cards that are not affected by it, but until all aggro decks pack 24 flyers, you cannot possibly try to argue that moat does not cripple IMMENSELY, not mentioning win the game right on the spot. Makes the opponent look for 4 cards in his whole deck to even try to kill you.
This argument has been done to death.

At four mana, two of that white, it had better guarantee you some measure of safety. It doesn't do that reliably. A four mana chance at buying a few turns isn't worthwhile. Why would you run that instead of cards that compliment the main strategy? A strong Solitary Confinement lock is far safer than all your silver bullet answers.

Lol burn, as if we hadn´t a bazilion ways to shroud us from direct damage to face.

Are you kidding?

What ways besides Solitary Confinement?

[Kring]

Moat doesn't win by itself. You still have to win after it is played, therefore, your argument holds less weight than the fact that every other deck has a way of winning through a Moat.

I lol'd. Really? To answer to that kind of arguments ill give it back to you, troll style: how many enchantress top8 have you seen without moat? Not much, i assure you.

What ways besides Solitary Confinement?

Runed Halo, Nevermore, Leyline of Sanctity are the most played ones. And there is the whole lot of cards that are worse.

To think im defending moat's strength in a enchantress thread, and its necessity, really makes me feel like 2006.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

I lol'd. Really? To answer to that kind of arguments ill give it back to you, troll style: how many enchantress top8 have you seen without moat? Not much, i assure you.



Runed Halo, Nevermore, Leyline of Sanctity are the most played ones. And there is the whole lot of cards that are worse.

To think im defending moat's strength in a enchantress thread, and its necessity, really makes me feel like 2006.

You're right, it made more sense in 2006, since Replenish was banned and we were forced to run sub-optimal cards.

I'll post one last general observation on the issue unless someone who has more than 6 posts and isn't trolling has a counterpoint;

It's easy to see why people run Moat. Situationally it can buy you a lot of time. But the time it promises is only as much as the opponent allows. Every deck has answers, and cards that cost four mana shouldn't be a gamble. People have done well running it, but every time I observe other Enchantress players, I'm led to the same conclusion; Moat makes good players play sloppy. The "silver bullet" strategy in general has this problem, but Moat is the most egregious offender; a card that seems like you can tutor for it and be safe for several turns makes people underestimate their opponent and make mistakes.

[caiomarcos]

You're right, it made more sense in 2006, since Replenish was banned and we were forced to run sub-optimal cards.

I'll post one last general observation on the issue unless someone who has more than 6 posts and isn't trolling has a counterpoint;

It's easy to see why people run Moat. Situationally it can buy you a lot of time. But the time it promises is only as much as the opponent allows. Every deck has answers, and cards that cost four mana shouldn't be a gamble. People have done well running it, but every time I observe other Enchantress players, I'm led to the same conclusion; Moat makes good players play sloppy. The "silver bullet" strategy in general has this problem, but Moat is the most egregious offender; a card that seems like you can tutor for it and be safe for several turns makes people underestimate their opponent and make mistakes.

If you replace Moat with any other defensive card the argument would make as much sense as it makes now. Therefore, either we get rid of every protective enchantment we have or we keep running a couple of them, Moat being the best one, alongside other good ones like Runed Halo, Ground Seal, Nevermore etc.

Also, I wouldn't call Moat a silver bullet. Not like Ground Seal or Lignify. Moat is as much a silver bullet as Wasteland or Swords to Plowshares.

Actually, what you said above could be said for every reactive card, every "answer" card. All they do is buy you a couple of turns and in most of the cases they do not help directly to implement your main strategy. What does a Froce of Will do other then giving you some time and then, with that time, you develop your game to the point where you won't lose or your opponent won't win anymore? Moat is one of the best cards at doing this, and 4 mana is a fair price (in Enchantress) to pay for that.

If a player makes mistakes while playing with Moat in his deck, it's not Moat's fault.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

If you replace Moat with any other defensive card the argument would make as much sense as it makes now. Therefore, either we get rid of every protective enchantment we have or we keep running a couple of them, Moat being the best one, alongside other good ones like Runed Halo, Ground Seal, Nevermore etc.

Also, I wouldn't call Moat a silver bullet. Not like Ground Seal or Lignify. Moat is as much a silver bullet as Wasteland or Swords to Plowshares.

Actually, what you said above could be said for every reactive card, every "answer" card. All they do is buy you a couple of turns and in most of the cases they do not help directly to implement your main strategy. What does a Froce of Will do other then giving you some time and then, with that time, you develop your game to the point where you won't lose or your opponent won't win anymore? Moat is one of the best cards at doing this, and 4 mana is a fair price (in Enchantress) to pay for that.

If a player makes mistakes while playing with Moat in his deck, it's not Moat's fault.

This is generally true, and why my list has so few of the white defensive enchantments that many enchantress players rely on. It's not just a matter of their function though; it's about their cost. I would be all over Runed Halo at 1W. At WW, it's debatable SB material for me.

[lep]

Moat isn't intended to be the 5th (or 4th) Solitary. It is intended to buy time to set up a harder lock.

Some decks are stone cold to it. For example at the last SCG I went to in Baltimore I was paired against belcher. Elephant grass bought me a turn against a horde of goblins and Moat sealed them off. Goblins also have a hell of a time with it since relying on Sharpshooter + Siegegang seems counter-intuitive.

Against other decks like BUG\RUG it isn't a game sealing card but I never see keeping Tarmogoys on the other side of the water as a bad thing. They do have Delvers\Grims\Bolts\Whatevers but it immensely slows down their clock, and that is all it is meant to do.

[caiomarcos]

Just happened:

"caiomarcos plays Moat from Hand
caiomarcos draws a card
<Uooooo> ok g2"

Not many cards do that.

Too bad that today only a few decks scoop to Moat and I'm finding it impossible to beat blue decks with Snapcaster Mage.
Against neo-thresh like builds, Delver is just a beating, they come too early for us to handle properly against early counters in the form o Spell Snare, FoW and Daze PLUS Snapcaster recasting those.
Against more controlish builds the early game they just counter you like it has always been, but when it goes mid game, Jace and Snapcaster simply bury you in permission, the strategy to play many must counter cards then to finish it off with Replenish or an eventual threat that goes uncountered does not work against The Mindsculptor with Snapcaster.

What am I doing wrong?