Legacy is doomed. SCG jumping on board the "Ban Brainstorm" wagon. :(

[DragoFireheart]

Apparently you don't understand how important it is for Storm to turn shit cards into good cards.

Um, I don't remember if I said it would affect storm or not as that is a completely different beast. Yes, losing brainstorm would hurt Storm since they also need the card quality MUCH more than other combo decks. I agree with what you said.

[ivanpei]

Losing brainstorm will cause ALL combo decks to drastically drop in power level. Its the consistency provided by Brainstorm that allows combo decks to Tick. Unless everyone wants to play 1 trick ponies like Belcher, banning Brainstorm will surely be another nail in Combo's coffin.

I for one am against Brainstorm's banning. The card is the hallmark of legacy. People play legacy to play powerful cards. It's the format's main attraction. I gave up on Modern when they banned all the good stuff. I'm not playing no weak-ass format.

It's like telling Vintage players: Sorry blue is too strong, we're banning Ancestral, Time Walk and Timetwister, you guys can go suck it. You cannot take down the pillar of legacy. It is not healthy to keep banning stuff. Let the regulating apply to Modern. I want to play with the Strong Stuff in legacy.

[DragoFireheart]

Losing brainstorm will cause ALL combo decks to drastically drop in power level. Its the consistency provided by Brainstorm that allows combo decks to Tick. Unless everyone wants to play 1 trick ponies like Belcher, banning Brainstorm will surely be another nail in Combo's coffin.

Yes and no. Combo decks lose the power of brainstorm but it doesn't hurt the non-storm blue based decks as much as it would hurt blue-control decks and storm decks. Ponder and Preordain would provide enough consistency for digging for a combo piece that losing brainstorm wouldn't negatively affect blue-combo decks like Reanimator/NO RUG/SnT as much as Storm or blue control that want the cantrip and card quality that Brainstorm provides.

[death]

This is the updated the "Decks to Beat" for this month.. Keep in mind that this is the period that Snapcaster Mage became legal. The top 2,3,4 decks (UGR (Thresh), UW (Stoneblade), and BUG (TA)) pushing aggro and combo aside. What else do these decks have in common aside from Brainstorm? Banning Brainstorm is surely going to be a major buzz kill, but nerfing these 3 decks, by taking away Snapcaster Mage, may bring combo and various aggro decks back up the charts. Unless of course you're already fine with 1 G/W 2,3,4 RUG-UW-BUG.

[DragoFireheart]

This is the updated the "Decks to Beat" for this month.. Keep in mind that this is the period that Snapcaster Mage became legal. The top 2,3,4 decks (UGR (Thresh), UW (Stoneblade), and BUG (TA)) pushing aggro and combo aside. What else do these decks have in common aside from Brainstorm? Banning Brainstorm is surely going to be a major buzz kill, but nerfing these 3 decks, by taking away Snapcaster Mage, may bring combo and various aggro decks back up the charts. Unless of course you're already fine with 1 G/W 2,3,4 RUG-UW-BUG.

People are fine with Zoo, Splinter Twin, Affinity and jank in Modern. What's the big deal here?

Edit: I find it funny that blue is getting a lot of hate at the moment but the best deck from last month was GW creature beats. Even more hilarious is they have a creature that kicks the crap out of Tarmogoyfs. LOL!

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Yes, well, Ari's been drinking the kool aid too. He's been head over heels for Brainstorm for a while.

Everyone is, have you played the card? It's nuts. That's why some people are so willing to flip out and attack anyone who suggests that the card is the main contributor to blue's over-dominance of the field, which would otherwise be a "fucking duh" statement.

I'd say Maverick is pretty new.

Not really an aggro deck, much more midrange. To the extent that these distinctions make sense anymore, I mean I think a flying Wild Nacatl is pretty aggressive, but when you toss it in with Counterbalance, who knows...

I mean, we're talking all of about 8 months old? And Lewis Laskin's Green and Taxes and Brian Fischer/Jason Jaco's Junk and Taxes although those you could classify more as midrange than true aggro. Burn's made quite the comeback recently, making a couple of T8's on the Open circuit.

These lists don't seem to be performing from what I can see. Also burn is just fundamentally inconsistent.

Don't bother responding to my posts further in this topic because I won't even bother reading them until you want to drop your pride and admit you were wrong.

Sounds like something a little tosser would say.

Yes and no. Combo decks lose the power of brainstorm but it doesn't hurt the non-storm blue based decks as much as it would hurt blue-control decks

I've already demonstrated why this is wrong, and anyone who's actually played with the decks in question should understand why it's wrong. Free mulligans are just a lot better in combo, there's a reason Serum Powder never got played in Thresh.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Apparently you don't understand how important it is for Storm to turn shit cards into good cards. By definition, combo decks need to assemble a specific combination of cards at any particular time, and other cards are not good at that particular time. A card that allows you to exchange the cards you don't need to cards that immediately win you the game is absurd. This is why Brainstorm is stronger in combo than it is in many blue decks.

Imagine you're playing TES. Your hand is Infernal Tutor, Brainstorm, and some Chrome Moxen (a shit hand). You Brainstorm into LED, Dark Ritual, Lotus Petal, put 2 moxen back on top, and win immediately. No other cantrip does that. Another scenario I encounter commonly. I'm playing Spiral Tide and cast Time Spiral. My post-Spiral hand is crappy and mostly lands. I cast Brainstorm and draw into three business spells, putting back two lands. All of a sudden my hand is sauce and I win, due to the virtual card advantage I gain by ditching shit cards that aren't relevant to my combo at that point in time. Again, no other cantrip does that. That's not even mentioning Doomsday shenanigans - that deck is probably not playable at all without BS as it figures prominently in so many piles.

If this post doesn't make complete sense to you, go play combo for a while. I'm aware that you have a huge boner for blue control, but to think that combo would not be weaker because of a Brainstorm ban is just plain retarded.

Oh my this was a good post.

Hey Drago I'm going to call you out for posturing if you actually respond to me after huffing that you wouldn't, so you should respond to this one instead.

[death]

I think the problem would arise when people start going "all in" with Maverick versus blue and fail or if Maverick falls out of flavor, blue tempo/control decks are going to eat a big chunk off that chart.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Assigning a greater probability to a statement that goes against the available evidence providing only tautological reasoning isn't really going to convince anyone.

I mean I don't really want to get into too much detail, but the arguments are

1) Fish runs a shit ton of cards that are shitty in the mid and late game, including you know lands, and

2) Have you played fucking Brainstorm before Christ, it's like you would actually raise the power level and consistency of Fish by cutting four cards at fucking random and swapping some islands for fetches, and assuming you didn't hit all your LoAs it would still be an upgrade.

Back on topic. Brainstorm is powerful. Correct. Broken. Possibly. One of the cards that make people play legacy. Quite likely.

Other cards in the previous category include e.g. dual lands, FoW, LeD, Vial. They used to include Sotf, too.

All these cards are in some sense broken. Legacy is basically a broken format, but it's fun also because of that. If you ban all of the broken cards, many people are going to quit the format. Not because blue or combo or whatever other archetype is nerfed, but because the format would become less and less appealing to them.

Banning one of the format staples is always going to hurt the format in some way, even when it's necessary. Think about SotF: along with the dominating combo archetype, we lost an enormous variety of different decks, interactions and possibility, which is a pity.

I don't know if I would quit in case they ban brainstorm. For sure I would not rage quit based on some honorable stance about my love for the card. I would still try the new format, and probably find it less interesting than before. If my interest goes below a certain threshold I would find something more interesting to do.

Conversely, the loss of interest in other people in a format where blue just got ridiculously better than it already was has to be taken into account, though.

[DragoFireheart]

I think the problem would arise when people start going "all in" with Maverick versus blue and fail or if Maverick falls out of flavor, blue tempo/control decks are going to eat a big chunk off that chart.

It doesn't matter what Maverick players do. The printing of Delver and Snappy already gave tempo decks a big boost.

As much as I don't want to see brainstorm banned since this is the last format you can use four of it in, it would be interesting to see if blue was in fact "nerfed" as much as the theorycrafts are suggesting. I suspect that combo decks that weren't storm (Reanimator/SnT/ maybe No RuG) would quickly become popular again since other cantrips can easily fill the void of brainstorm for cantripping.

Here is the thing that bothers me most: lets assume brainstorm is banned but blue is STILL the "best" deck. What would people suggest banning next to nerf blue? Force of Will? Other cantrips? Snapcaster?

[TooCloseToTheSun]

I mean I don't really want to get into too much detail, but the arguments are

1) Fish runs a shit ton of cards that are shitty in the mid and late game, including you know lands, and

2) Have you played fucking Brainstorm before Christ, it's like you would actually raise the power level and consistency of Fish by cutting four cards at fucking random and swapping some islands for fetches, and assuming you didn't hit all your LoAs it would still be an upgrade.

I have never played a merfolk list that wasn't consistent, you are either building it wrong or playing it wrong.

[caiomarcos]

Random rant: Delver is fucking nuts. 3/3 shroud turn 239203? No thanks, take this 3/2 flyer turn 2. Oh, it also pitches to fow and makes your Brainstorm even better. And can be played off any dual you might have or that 1 or 2 basics you might eventually play.

Brainstorm is as broken as a card can be without being an obvious ban, but I think Jace, Snapcaster, Delver and whatnot just sent blue way out of reach for other colors. Let's not lay the full blame on good old Brainstorm.

[DragoFireheart]

Random rant: Delver is fucking nuts. .

Sshh, you might cause the blue-haters to call for Delver to get banned.

[Darkenslight]

IMHO, Brainstorm is both one of the defining cards of Legacy, and a massive skill-tester (and I'm not talking about the Chimney Pimp here). Yes, it is a very potent card, because of how it interacts with a subsection of other cards.

Is it bannable? Probably. Is it a good idea to? Probably not. The reason for this is that it does three things for combo and control decks:

1) it hides your most potent spells form discard;
2) in combination with fetchlands, it enables you to get rid of excess garbage/duplicates that you have:
3) it forces people to be LESS interactive, through forcing fewer decisions to be made.

Now maybe it's just a case of shooting the messenger, as it were. But I, for one, would be at least partly interested in seeing a Brainstorm-less meta. Perhaps its banning might be a catalyst for non-Blue decks to have more "balance".

[death]

Here is the thing that bothers me most: lets assume brainstorm is banned but blue is STILL the "best" deck. What would people suggest banning next to nerf blue? Force of Will? Other cantrips? Snapcaster?

I wouldn't worry about it. This is why I'm calling Snapcaster out. Without Brainstorm, blue will die a slow, miserable death and maybe the format. Blue isn't going to be the best deck, never. Neither Maverick, nor ANT/TES without Brainstorm. I'm not classified as a 'pro' but I surely wouldn't prefer casting a sorcery speed/overcosted cantrip over Brainstorm when playing control. I wouldn't dare pick up ANT without Brainstorm. The format will be filled with random fugly decks.

I'm OK if blue decks stay as the "best" deck because I also like to play control sometimes. But what I would like see is non-GSZ aggro having a chance against Snapcaster-blue decks. I think Snapcaster's power level is way up in this format and players just haven't realize it yet.

[DragoFireheart]

Now maybe it's just a case of shooting the messenger, as it were. But I, for one, would be at least partly interested in seeing a Brainstorm-less meta. Perhaps its banning might be a catalyst for non-Blue decks to have more "balance".

I doubt it would have the effects that some are intending for it to have. Instead, the following might happen:

A- Blue-control decks are still played due to fear of combo decks. Nothing changes and, inevitably, more calls for banning blue cards get called. Force of Will, Snapcaster Mage, Delver of Secrets, Ponder, and JTMS may get suggested next.

B- Blue-control becomes weakened more than combo decks would be weakened by the loss of brainstorm, resulting in a surge of combo decks. I predict the surge would last longer than the one that followed MMS.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Oh my this was a good post.

Hey Drago I'm going to call you out for posturing if you actually respond to me after huffing that you wouldn't, so you should respond to this one instead.

He admitted I was right. I think a lot of people just don't play combo, and thus don't understand the dynamics of why something like Brainstorm is sauce in the archetype.

I doubt it would have the effects that some are intending for it to have. Instead, the following might happen:

A- Blue-control decks are still played due to fear of combo decks. Nothing changes and, inevitably, more calls for banning blue cards get called. Force of Will, Snapcaster Mage, Delver of Secrets, Ponder, and JTMS may get suggested next.

B- Blue-control becomes weakened more than combo decks would be weakened by the loss of brainstorm, resulting in a surge of combo decks. I predict the surge would last longer than the one that followed MMS.

I've already explained why (B) is bullshit - Brainstorm is stronger in combo than it is in blue control. As for (A), at this point I'm not even sure combo is the reason. I think people either just like playing blue, or play it because it's infinitely better than everything else. I know people in my meta all play blue even when I'm the only combo player (or when there's no combo). And that's either because they like it, or because they think (correctly) that it's better than everything else. I don't play it because I don't enjoy it - although I do use plenty of blue cards in combo decks.

[DragoFireheart]

I wouldn't worry about it. This is why I'm calling Snapcaster out. Without Brainstorm, blue will die a slow, miserable death and maybe the format. Blue isn't going to be the best deck, never. Neither Maverick, nor ANT/TES without Brainstorm. I'm not classified as a 'pro' but I surely wouldn't prefer casting a sorcery speed/overcosted cantrip over Brainstorm when playing control. I wouldn't dare pick up ANT without Brainstorm. The format will be filled with random fugly decks.

- I agree with all of this.

I'm OK if blue decks stay as the "best" deck because I also like to play control sometimes. But what I would like see is non-GSZ aggro having a chance against Snapcaster-blue decks. I think Snapcaster's power level is way up in this format and players just haven't realize it yet.

-I feel like a goal-post is being moved at this point. Green is the color of good beaters: to have a aggro deck be better than the color that nearly defines having the best creatures seems like bad design. Decks that splash green are inevitably going to be the best aggro-based decks that aren't aggro-control or aggro-combo.

Right now, the choices for tier 1 are Maverick while Zoo is appearing to be tier 1.5. I guess I'm wondering if trying to artificially force the meta to have a balanced group of control, aggro, and combo decks is a wise decision.

[DragoFireheart]

He admitted I was right.

-More evidence that IBA doesn't read posts and is more concerned with trolling.

I think a lot of people just don't play combo, and thus don't understand the dynamics of why something like Brainstorm is sauce in the archetype.

- For storm decks I understand why since you need X amount of cards to go off (and Doomsday but I haven't seen it played lately so I didn't mention it). I wasn't including those kinds of decks because the ones that play non-storm play blue typically and I still see them as less harmed by the loss of brainstorm compared to blue control and storm decks.

I've already explained why (B) is bullshit - Brainstorm is stronger in combo than it is in blue control.

- For storm combo I could agree but not for the other combo decks.

As for (A), at this point I'm not even sure combo is the reason. I think people either just like playing blue, or play it because it's infinitely better than everything else. I know people in my meta all play blue even when I'm the only combo player (or when there's no combo). And that's either because they like it, or because they think (correctly) that it's better than everything else. I don't play it because I don't enjoy it - although I do use plenty of blue cards in combo decks.

-If blue is better than everything else, then why are Maverick decks performing so well? Why isn't Merfolk performing so well (Not everyone plays blade control)?

[Admiral_Arzar]

-More evidence that IBA doesn't read posts and is more concerned with trolling.




- For storm decks I understand why since you need X amount of cards to go off (and Doomsday but I haven't seen it played lately so I didn't mention it). I wasn't including those kinds of decks because the ones that play non-storm play blue typically and I still see them as less harmed by the loss of brainstorm compared to blue control and storm decks.

It's difficult to quantify whether each combo archetype is more hurt by the loss of BS. The issue with NO/SNT style decks is you often draw too many dudes, and you never really want to. Drawing Progenitus in any NO shell is really bad, which is part of why Brainstorm is so good there. The fact that you can no longer hide good cards from Hymn hurts all combo decks immensely as well (I've won games with Spiral Tide vs. triple Hymn draws out of Junk largely because of the power of Brainstorm).

-If blue is better than everything else, then why are Maverick decks performing so well? Why isn't Merfolk performing so well (Not everyone plays blade control)?

As for your point about Maverick - that deck is basically a blue hate deck. It is designed to beat the blue matchup at the expense of the combo matchup. However, with blue as strong as it is there isn't much combo in the format right now, making Maverick an amazing metagame choice. Even extremely resilient decks like Spiral Tide have great difficulty fighting through the new breed of Snapcaster-powered tempo decks. Case in point - I don't think I ever lost a match to Canadian Threshold with Spiral Tide pre-Snapcaster (they were all very close, however). The new RUG Tempo lists are a very difficult matchup though - Snapcaster + REB is absolutely backbreaking.

Merfolk has a very poor matchup against Maverick (and any other non-blue aggro floating around). It's never been that great against Canadian Threshold, and a lot of the new breed of Snapcaster and Stoneforge - powered blue decks aren't easy matchups either. The day where Merfolk can mop up all the blue decks in the format that don't play lots of red cards is gone, seemingly.