- At least with batterskull you have some hope racing them/stabilizing. BS gives merfolk a hard time.Originally Posted by jin
- Counterblade is my attempt to try and make CBT viable again. I do share your feelings in questioning if CBT of any flavor is viable in the least. A couple of Supreme Blue lists did top recently so there is hope:At this point I think cbt (not just supreme blue) isn't viable. With stifle wasteland decks getting snapcaster and pack a set of four spell snares, I'm wondering if we'll receive the chance to cast our 2 drops at all....
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/met...?format=Legacy
sorry double
You don't like 'maybes' but you are ok with 'hope'? That's somewhat contradictory. This is how I read it: "At least with batterskull you maybe have a chance to race them/stabilize." I'm not saying you are wrong; I'm just wanted to point out the condescension and contradiction.
I think Batterskull is strong against Merfolk if you get it fast enough, much like if you get Tarmogoyf big enough. I wouldn't result to racing them though as much as I would with pressuring them. I feel that the race just cannot be won by brute force alone given the utility provided by Phantasmal Image, Merrow Reejerey and Dismember. This is assuming all of your Swords to Plowshare will be aimed at LOA. They pack too much removal to slow us down. I don't know if SFM can come down turn 2.
I'm not too sure. I think without Mental Misstep, the format is too fast for SFM. I think to help CB, we probably have to adopt a Snapcaster shell. Here is my proposal:
3x Sensei's Diving Top
4x Snapcaster Mage
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Counterbalance
1x Oblivion Ring
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Spell Snare
2x Swrods to Plowshares
3x Jace, The MInd Sculptor
3x Ponder
2x Island
4x Misty Rainstforest
1x Mountain
1x Plains
4x Scalding Tarn
3x Tropical Island
2x Tundra
3x Volcanic Island
Right now, my only issue with it is there isn't enough 3 drops, so I'm thinking of shaving some ponders and jace2 for some playable three drops... but then I can't think of any playable three drops that might work right now.
Trinket Mage? and chuck in explosives.
I think it's interesting you think the format is too fast for Stoneforge Mystic, the proceed to run Snapcaster, Jace, and only 20 lands.
I like 20 lands. I do fine with it. Some people may like more lands. They can easily cut ponders for that. I like cantripping into them more than I like to top deck them.
Snapcaster bringing back lightning bolt and spell snare is fast.
Blue control deck without jace is silly..
Hello all. I've been a bit out of the Magic loop lately, but I have been theorizing for decklists a bit as of late. Unfortunately I don't have the time to keep fully up to date on the format/deck types, so I wanted to know what people think of the following list. I will first post it, and then add some explanation for the choices and why it seems like a strong choice to me (Note: I purposefully left out the sideboard):
// Lands
1 [MM] Tower of the Magistrate
1 [LG] Karakas
2 [R] Tundra
3 [R] Tropical Island
1 [UNH] Forest
4 [JGC] Flooded Strand
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [ZEN] Island (3)
1 [RAV] Plains (2)
1 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [R] Savannah
// Creatures
4 [DDG] Knight of the Reliquary
3 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
3 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
1 [M12] Phantasmal Image
// Spells
1 [NPH] Batterskull
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [IA] Brainstorm
1 [MBS] Sword of Feast and Famine
3 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 [BRB] Swords to Plowshares
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [V09] Sensei's Divining Top
Quickstats:
20 lands
18 blue cards
CC of 14-12-7-3-5
I like this list, because I think it has a strong mix of control, aggression, late game, and early game. I have played numerous practice games and the deck seems to run pretty smoothly. You get to run many of the best creatures in the game, all of which can win games by themselves. This is quite important: While I like utility creatures like snapcaster/trinket mage/etc, I feel like they lack power to close out games by themselves, whereas a tarmogoyf can win you the game in a few turns.
In particular, I think Knight is one of the strongest creatures in the current meta. Fixes your mana, is a gigantic beater, and is a great counter to stoneforge mystic with the inclusion of tower of the magistrate. You can also get Karakas to interact with Clique, although I am concerned that that might be a bit too cute.
The phantasmal image is there because it's very good almost every game, and I needed an extra blue card for force of will. It has surprising utility: copying stoneforges, killing progenitus, etc.
Hierarchs greatly boosts your early game plays when you can get him out, and the exalted helps in general to get in damage.
Then you have the countertop engine which I think supplements the aggressive nature of the deck. In games that draw out longer you should have the upperhand against most decks with top, and especially if you can setup the full countertop combo. Additionally, I like having counterbalance against combo, although it might not be as strong as the counterspells/discard setups that current decks have been running.
Some other things. Only 3 goyf, only 3 swords. I don't think that 4 swords is needed at the moment. It seems to me that there's not a lot of scary creatures out there since you should have the biggest ones, except maybe against reanimator. That said, swords is still a great tempo card so I think it's worth including. 3 goyf is probably okay currently, as I've been less impressed with him as other powerhouse cards have come out. Mostly, I replaced the 4th with 1 phantasmal image for blue count.
I was also considering going down to 3 counterbalance, because while it's a strong card I'm not sure it's wanted all the time early against current decks, so running 3 could possibly be very acceptable. I had also been considering going down to 3 force of will, though I do realize that it's almost certainly a bad idea. In some respects the 2-for-1 nature of the card can really hurt you in the current meta, but at the same token it's needed to deal with random things and the powerhouse cards people are running.
As for sideboard, I have no idea honestly. I wanted to run some tech using [cards]Eladamri's Call[/call] with some targets like Scavenging Ooze, Peacekeeper, Phantasmal Image, etc., but in the end I'm not sure it's currently worth it.
Anyway, just some thoughts and some theories. I'm pretty out of touch with Legacy at the moment, so I'd like some opinions from people more in the know. Thanks in advance!
Eladamri's Call <<<<< Green Suns Zenith
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If you're not going to bother running Zenith in the main it's not about the tempo, it's about the utility. As such, I'd rather be able to get my images/peacekeepers/other non-green creatures. Zenith doesn't deal with Legendary creatures, to my knowledge, which is (or at least was) a huge deal with NO decks. Call also let's you get certain key cards out sooner. For example, you can get a scavenging ooze turn 2 and have it active on turn 3 or get a faerie macabre ready for GY hate on turn 2. While investing one more mana overall, you are able to have certain creatures in play/active sooner than you would be able to with Zenith. Additionally, the instant speed flexibility is relevant. Like I said though, I'm not convinced that it'd be worthwhile anyway, although it was an idea that I had rolling around since I'm a big fan of tutor boards. I could possibly just accomplish something similar, but better with some other tutor instead though.
Interesting list. You've essentially replaced Firespout with SFM and Batterskull which I see as an acceptable replacement. Since they both are about crowd control and they are both third turn. I do prefer Firespout, but whatever is your fancy.
I see two problems with your deck right now. The first is the decks aggro component which is rather slow and redundant. I think in a blue deck that has so much digging power, redundancy is less important as versatility. I think your deck is a little on the aggro side and not enough on the control side. I feel that if a deck were to rely some what more on spells, you'd be in for some trouble. I'm thinking cards like Hymn to Tourach, Vindicate, Propaganda, Null Rod will all be a big problem for you as you have no real way of removing them once they have resolved and no real way of stopping them from coming into play besides CB. I think you'll find that your match up against Zoo will be quite hard when they can keep you off of SFM and drop Qasali Pridemage which you cannot realistically answer besides bullying them into blocking or the 3x Swords to Plowshare.
The second problem I see is your mana-base. Unlike mine, which runs Ponders to dig for the lands, your deck doesn't have that. Instead you must rely on top decking, and with only 20 lands, I must say you are going to miss your land drops on your way to four. Your creatures all are at least 2 drops, so you'll have quite a hard time finding the mana to drop multiple threats at once disabling your aggro plan.
Also, I feel the Tower of Magistrate is quite unnecessary as you play Batterskull, Tarmogoyf, and Knight of the Reliquary which are all either equal or greater than enemy Batterskulls.
I hope you find my feedback helpful. Thanks for listening.
Thanks for your response, I appreciate it. Below are my responses, let me know what you think.
This is an intentional choice. In order to have more control, you need to lose some of the aggro. However, I think so much aggro really helps you against control decks, while also serving somewhat of a control role in the aggro matchup. For example, decks which have few creatures and want to control the game more can have fits when they have to deal with SFM, Goyfs, and Knights: All things which can win the game on their own if not answered. If you run less aggro, your threats become easier to manage. Additionally, this gives you the opportunity to win games out of pure aggression, something you're unable to do with more control. This type of playstyle is a very important avenue to have, in my experience.
On the other hand, having big creatures like this also helps you in aggro matchups. Sure, it's perhaps a little slower than running removal or something, but throwing down a batterskull, goyf, etc. can create headaches for the aggro player. I admidt that it's not as good as striaght control versus these types of decks, but I think the dual purpose of the role against control and aggro is better than running more control.
I'm not quite sure what you mean by this. How exactly is relying less on creatures going so solve what you claim to be the problem here? Hymn still hurts if you have less creatures, vindicate will still get the few threats you stick, etc. Propaganda and null rod are not really an issue in my opinion...If my opponent wants to use a card to slow me down, that's fine because I can play both aggro and control. Things like Null rod can also be dealt with in the board if they really feel like a problem, but it's a rather narrow SB card that I don't feel like is seeing a lot of play.I'm thinking cards like Hymn to Tourach, Vindicate, Propaganda, Null Rod will all be a big problem for you as you have no real way of removing them once they have resolved and no real way of stopping them from coming into play besides CB.
I do mostly agree with this, although I do think I have a lot of good tools to deal with them. Big creatures and batterskull go a long way. I think that I would address this matchup by adding sideboard so that it becomes a lot in my favor.I think you'll find that your match up against Zoo will be quite hard when they can keep you off of SFM and drop Qasali Pridemage which you cannot realistically answer besides bullying them into blocking or the 3x Swords to Plowshare.
I very much disagree. How exactly is 20 lands, 4 brainstorms, 4 sensei's divining tops, 3 hierarchs, and 4 knights a bad mana base? It should be easy to use brainstorms/tops to dig for lands early if you need, plus hierarchs give you an early boost, and if you lay down a knight turn 3 you get to 4 mana easily. Having an aggro plan is not just about playing a lot of creatures in one turn. In this style of deck it's about being able to play high quality and high threatening creatures on more than one turn, which I think this deck can do.The second problem I see is your mana-base.
Is this really the case though? It's not just batterskull tokens you have to worry about...It's when they put batterskull on their other creatures that you have a problem. For example, if you have a knight (especially early), that knight won't necessarily be able to win combat with a batterskull on a tarmogoyf. Or if other decks get sword of feast and famine I won't even be able to block. SFM is very popular currently, and I think that running one tower to get with knights is a great way to get the upperhand in this matchup.Also, I feel the Tower of Magistrate is quite unnecessary as you play Batterskull, Tarmogoyf, and Knight of the Reliquary which are all either equal or greater than enemy Batterskulls.
I would agree that the hierarchs help, but normally I prefer to be digging for answers instead of lands. I would normally prefer 21 or 22 lands using my brainstorms and shuffle effects to find the right business spells or shuffle back extra lands. But it's fair to say I may be completely incorrect given your aggro strategy.
This is all fine and true, but a more controlling version of Counterbalance Top is still an aggro control deck simply because of the aggro component that Tarmogoyf brings to the table. In this type of deck Tarmogoyf is on average a 4/5, maxing out at 6/7 by late game every game. There is no need to have anything less efficient than him. He, and he alone, can clear the way. I can see where you are coming from with KOTR, but KOTR is simply not as efficient as Tarmogoyf in this type of deck than he normally is in a Rock or Aggro Loam type deck. His presence is (in my opinion) somewhat unnecessary. You also have lots of redundancy in the goyf + SFM + Batterskull, so I can see why you are running 3x Tarmogoyf there.
Yeah, Null Rod was a poor example. I was thinking more along the lines of Trinisphere, Bloodmoon, Wrath of God, Break Through, Natural Order, Swords to Plowshare, Price of Progress, Green Sun's Zenith, Humility, Life from the Loam. What I'm saying is, without Counterspell (and to some extent Spell Snare), you have limited ways of stopping these things from coming down and even less ways of removing them once they resolved.
That's good, as long as you know..
I agree with Dalapin. I mostly use my Brainstorms late game to win the battle of attrition. I would hate to use Brainstorm for lands. Also, my Sensei's Divining Top doesn't come sometimes, which is annoying. I did overlook the Noble Hierarch, so that is better than expected, however, Noble Hierarchs add to your weakness against burns.
Yes, but you can fix this by playing Swords to Plowshare. If they equip a goyf with Batterskull, you can simply plow it, which is a HUGE tempo gain. Swords to Plowshare is also more versatile than the Tower of Magistrate. Plus you already have 3.. You only have 1 Tower, which you can only fetch for with KOTR... Assuming the other guy doesn't play Swords to Plowshare....
I'm sure most of you have seen the list by now--RUG CounterTop won SCG Baltimore last night: here's the list. Calosso went in a much different direction than this thread was advocating last month, removing white from the build altogether.
Also, This Uwg list finished 8th at GP Amsterdamn
Will these successes help make CB players believe it can win again?
So . . . I'm totally new to this deck and considering trying something pretty close to Calosso's list from baltimore. I've played a lot of Tempo decks in the past and I'm very comfortable with all of the tempo elements, but I've actually never played a counterbalance list before. I was hoping someone in here could give me some guidelines on how to sideboard the counterbalance package in a deck like that.
I'm assuming sometimes you want to pull the counterbalances out, but I don't know against which decks you want to do that. When you pull the counterbalances, do you also pull the tops? Or just some of the tops? Fundamentally I just haven't played the list enough to understand what matchups I'm really going to want the counterbalances against, and which ones they're going to be subpar compared to other things I could be doing.
Thanks in advance for any suggestions/help.
J
- Looks like a bastard child of Surpreme Blue lists and BlueZoo. Dismember is strong enough to allow CB decks to not run white for swords. Not sure how I feel about having Daze in a CBT deck though.
I think it's actually more like traditional CBT when it first diverted from Canadian Thresh - with Delver replacing Nimble Mongoose.
Yeah I agree with the Dismember. I wonder how the list deals with KOTR though...
The list is really about locking out the 1 drops like Swords to Plowshare and Lightning Bolt. I think the greatest strength though is that it can play without the CBT lock and still be quite a contender. I read the coverage and it seemed like he mostly played without CBT. Once it was down, the other guy just scooped. It also seemed like he didn't have to deal with Spell Snare too often in the finals. I suppose the digging power of his deck just helped him find better cards.
The Daze and the 18 lands really help the deck be aggressive since the power-band of this deck is really just the early and mid game. It slows down the already slow opponent while helping the Delver grow. I think Daze is also important to stall enemy Jace's. Once it enters in to the late game, it really relies on the tempo it gained earlier to win. I think if it didn't play this aggressively (with Daze and 18 lands), it would simply lose to slower control decks' late game power.
The main win-con is Delver. That thing is a beast. CB just protects it. I don't think it is moving too far away from how this forum is discussing though. A lot of NO rUG players are turning to CBT and cutting out Natural Order. Canadian Thresh type decks are just more threatening in a fast metagame.
It's not a Tom Martell list. It's a list that harkens back to the birth of CBT. I quite like Calosso's list even though it doesn't focus on the lock as much as I'd like it to...
Calosso's list is quite unique in that it's not really a CBT deck that focuses on CBT too much. I suppose it's a good starting place. I think you should worry about playing the main deck properly before you start thinking about sideboarding. That way, you can get a feel about what is important and what isn't.
Everyone really plays it differently. I personally like to completely lock out the opponent, so I never board out CBT, but it's argued that against some decks that run a varying curve, you should probably board it out. People like to board it out against decks like Goblins or other AEther Vial decks. I personally don't like that. It's really dependent on how focused on the lock you are...
Calosso's list doesn't focus on it too much, so I'm thinking 1-2 can come out when you feel that CB doesn't have enough power to win you the game. SDT generally never come out since it is rarely a bad top-deck..
To conclude, try the deck out first, and worry about sideboarding later.
Calosso's list is really interesting. I like Delver / Goyf beatdown as wincon. But, I just can't understand the critical lack of 3cc spells to cover Kotr and Vindicate/Pulse. I understand that the main focus of the deck is not to establish the Countertop soft lock, but rather to control the early game like a ''tempo deck'' and bash with undercosted critters. But even Canadian (which philosophy and game style clearly influenced Calosso's build) almost folds to a resolved Kotr. And this deck doesn't even have Fire/Ice to try race it. I dig this list, but I'd really tweak it for a midrange aggro/ Maverick metagame.
Are you into Jazz? Have a look at the Lp's I have for sale on Discogs!
Hey Jeff, welcome to the club :-) Given you are comfortable with the tempo aspects of that list I thought I would just list and explain some typical and more technical counterbalance plays and interactions. Sorry if some of these seem too simple or obvious I'm just assuming you haven't played with Top or Counterbalance before. If other CB players have input I'd love to hear it. This is what I've learned...
Top:
Basic
- Take only 3 cards, carefully memorize your 3 cards and their order, and never put them near your hand. Some opponents out of desperation will actually be waiting to call a judge on you.
- Keeping a 1 lander with Top can be just as stupid as keeping a 1 lander with brainstorm.
- Your Top can easily force an opponent to Daze/Force on the first turn.
- Activate Top at the end of your opponents turn to set up your draw, but if you don't have mana then it's perfectly reasonable to activate Top on your upkeep if you need a certain draw.
Technical
- You generally don't want to see multiple tops, but if you do, you can play a second now, and combine a shuffle effect with it later to cantrip it.
- Top can protect itself by tapping to draw in response to a removal effect and even upkeep triggers that may threaten it.
- Activate top -> then tap it to draw -> then activate top, allows you to draw one of your top three cards, then move Top down from 1st to the 2nd of 3rd card on top.
Counterbalance:
Basic
- Always remember your flip triggers
- You can always use Brainstorm as a pseudo-Top to counter spells with CB (Best example is putting Force on top to nail their Force while keeping yours for a later spell)
- Playing CB "blind" (Where you don't know your top card) isn't necessarily bad; your curve is designed to help blind CB's counter 1's and 2's.
- CB triggers can be stifled by the opponent, but you still have a shot to counter Stifle with CB
- Your opponents X spells have a CMC equal to what they paid for it, this leads to situations where people will play EE for 3 using only 2 colors in an attempt to dodge your CB. See also Green Sun's Zenith.
Technical
- Don't always flip; if you know the top card won't counter their spell flipping is just extra information for your opponent.
- Turn 1 Brainstorm -> Turn 2 Counterbalance, guess which CMC your opponent will play after you pass the turn on turn 2, and use brainstorm to set it up. This is considered VERY tight CB play.
- Combine multiple CBs on the field with multiple shuffle effects to blind-flip against an opponents spell, then shuffle and blind-flip again.
Top + Counterbalance:
Typical
- Top allows you to place the correct CMC on top of your deck.
- Top can always be used to counter CMC 1 spells in a pinch by tapping it to draw.
- Flipping cards with the lock gives your opponent information, if you flip a 2 CMC now, and different 2 CMC next turn it's very likely you drew the other card.
Technical
- Each turn you must draw 1 of your top three cards, do not always take the best of the 3, make sure to LEAVE the 2 most important CMC for that matchup on top, i.e., CMC 3 if you expect KotR/Show and Tell/Vindicate or CMC 4 when you expect Jace/Natural Order and cannot deal with it using the cards you have in hand. (As opposed to just leaving CMC 1 and 2 on top)
- You opponent may attempt to bait you into tapping your Top to draw and follow up with a bigger spell after Top is on your deck and can no longer manipulate your cards. The easiest way to combat this is to keep a 1 CMC spell on top, barring that however you will simply have to be very vigilant about this type of play.
- Your opponent may also attempt to force something through by playing more spells than you have mana to activate top, in this case you may have to let weaker spells through to avoid losing to something larger.
Matchups: It's easier to list where you don't want Counterbalance out than it is otherwise. These are just the examples I could think of where you really don't want to play CB for one reason or another.
Dredge - Even if your CB counters Dread Return/Cabal Therapy they still get zombies, in the time it takes to setup CB+Top you could have been working on a much better game plan.
Merfolk - CB could work if they didn't have Aether Vial, CB is hit or miss based on that artifact; trying to get CB out before Aether Vial while always playing around Daze is just too hard.
Goblins - Actually play a pretty wide CMC curve, so even if they didn't have Aether Vial, it would be hard to counter all their spells.
MUD - The CMCs are just way to high in this deck for CB to be even remotely good.
Stompy - Generally the CMC curve sits right on 3, higher than you can reliably get 3 on top, and the fact that they dump cards onto the field without card advantage in mind usually means applying Swords -> Beater is enough advantage to keep you going.
Affinity - There is no way in Hell you will ever be able to counter anything with CB, it's just not possible.
G/W Aggro or Big Zoo - With Green Sun's Zenith their curve is actually 1 through 3 plus 1. This means you really really need a CMC 3 on top, which for most CB decks is hard to find reliably.
Enchantress - Unless you can reliably get 3 on top, where some of their best cards are, I would not recommend using CB here.
Note: Given you want to play Calosso's list, which has only 2 CMC 3 cards maindeck, any matchups such as G/W which utilizes several 3 CMC beaters and GSZ, you definitely want to pull CB for more tempo.
To more directly answer your question, in my experience you pull out the CBs, and generally you wouldn't want to remove Tops because they help you to find your sideboard cards. Sometimes, IF you expect your Tops to be too slow or too mana intensive for the pace of the matchup then I would pull a few tops out. Also with 4 Ponder 4 Brainstorm, finding your SB cards is still very doable without Top.
Hope this serves as a solid primer Jeff :-)
What do you guys think about GerryTs recent build of RUG CounterTop with Grove of the Burnwillows and Punishing Fires?
RUG Countertop
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
2 Dismember
3 Force of Will
3 Punishing Fire
3 Spell Snare
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Cascade Bluffs
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
2 Wooded Foothills
SB: 3 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Force of Will
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Lightning Bolt
SB: 4 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Thrun, the Last Troll
The Deck has lots of late-game power against all the Snapcaster Tempo RUG or BUG decks with Punishing Fires and also Grim Lavamancer.
After a few games I have changed some sideboard cards to better deal with Knight of the Reliquary (e.g. -2 Thrun, the Last Troll, -1 Pyroblast, -1 Lightning Bolt, +2 Submerge, +2 Mind Harness), as Bant and Maverick are quite a force here in Europe.
Does anyone have better options than Submerge against Knight of the Reliquary (optimally something that has a CMC of 3...).
Last edited by hofzge; 08-17-2012 at 05:47 AM.
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