Ban on Brainstorm: Yes or No (Post Snapcaster Mage)

[dontbiteitholmes]

You skewed that data dramatically to favor you.

Red may be more than 10% of only 30 decks but I expect it is in dramatically more decks in lower percents.

Why don't you provide more information if you have it so available? If your data is so strong and convincing you shouldn't need to manipulate it and be vague.

You could be right, but in his defense the information is publicly available so you could do it yourself if you really cared that much.

[CorpT]

You skewed that data dramatically to favor you.

Red may be more than 10% of only 30 decks but I expect it is in dramatically more decks in lower percents.

Why don't you provide more information if you have it so available? If your data is so strong and convincing you shouldn't need to manipulate it and be vague.

Also, I'm absolutely ok with blue being in 85% of those decks (whichever decks they are). It's ridiculous to decide that each color must be exactly equally represented. The format shifts and it isn't the end of the world. Bans aren't needed.

Go ahead and look at the data yourself. And I actually run it for 1% for non-Black colors. Black gets set at 10% just because of Dismember. There is no manipulation or vagueness. You stated that Green was as represented as Blue. I convincingly proved you wrong and you only respond that I manipulate the data without providing any of your own.

These are the real numbers. But feel free to go check yourself.

The point is that the format is only shifting towards more blue domination. How long before 90%? 95%? Each color does not need to be equally represented. But it is crazy to think that one color being 85% and another being 30% is acceptable. That's no where close to balance.

[Pippin]

Big NO.

Also, please keep the fighting to that other thread. Voting and a simple post are enough here.

[lordofthepit]

I see the merits for banning Brainstorm, but I vote for no because I consider it a "pillar of Legacy". It has nostalgia in its favor, and I do think increasing consistency (to some extent) is reasonable to have in the format.

However, I would not quit the format if Brainstorm were banned. I don't think it would affect me a whole lot; I would simply put down my current deck of choice and pick the next best deck available (probably Maverick or Zoo) at my local events. (Incidentally, it is curious how a lot of the posters who express distaste for "whiners who refuse to adapt" are exactly those who whine the most and are least flexible in their deck choices.)

Unfortunately, I do think a decent number of Legacy players will quit the format or even Magic entirely if Brainstorm were banned. Partly for the aforementioned reasons, and partly out of concern for them (and indirectly, the health of the community), I would prefer for Brainstorm to remain unbanned.

[UnderwaterGuy]

You could be right, but in his defense the information is publicly available so you could do it yourself if you really cared that much.

I don't know exactly what decks he is looking at.

[CorpT]

I don't know exactly what decks he is looking at.

So I'm wrong, but you can't be bothered to read my whole post where it says SCG decks since Innistrad?

Isn't there a political forum you should be trolling now?

[UnderwaterGuy]

Go ahead and look at the data yourself. And I actually run it for 1% for non-Black colors. Black gets set at 10% just because of Dismember. There is no manipulation or vagueness. You stated that Green was as represented as Blue. I convincingly proved you wrong and you only respond that I manipulate the data without providing any of your own.

These are the real numbers. But feel free to go check yourself.

The point is that the format is only shifting towards more blue domination. How long before 90%? 95%? Each color does not need to be equally represented. But it is crazy to think that one color being 85% and another being 30% is acceptable. That's no where close to balance.

You did not prove me wrong.

Here are the colors represented in the top 16 of Sunday's SCG tournament. Not counting Dismember as a black card and not counting Figure of Destiny as white, so Merfolk counts as a mono blue deck and Burn is mono red. If I counted Dismember as black then there would be 6 black decks (two Merfolk and one Zoo deck ran it) and if FoD was white there would be 7 white.

Green 11
Blue 10
Red 7
White 6
Black 3

In that tournament green was more represented than blue in the top 16. I have not gone through and counted for other tournaments.

edit: you had to give me a minute dude :P

and you said SCG but not which decks. (top 8/top 16/top ?)

[CorpT]

You did not prove me wrong.

Here are the colors represented in the top 16 of Sunday's SCG tournament. Not counting Dismember as a black card and not counting Figure of Destiny as white, so Merfolk counts as a mono blue deck and Burn is mono red. If I counted Dismember as black then there would be 6 black decks (two Merfolk and one Zoo deck ran it) and if FoD was white there would be 7 white.

Awesome sample size. 96 isn't enough, and you want to trim it down to 16 to "prove" your point?

[UnderwaterGuy]

My point is only that Brainstorm does not need banned. Blue is not the only good color and many decks are competitive.

[KobeBryan]

My point is only that Brainstorm does not need banned. Blue is not the only good color and many decks are competitive.

Just give up man. Whether brainstorm deserves a ban or not, blue is the most dominant and most represented color right now. Its not even worth arguing otherwise.

[oRen]

I think that Snapcaster is more a problem than Delver. People are claiming that Brainstorm is too good since like forever but now that you can play 8 it actually got too bonkers.

[f|i[p]]

Brainstorm has always been good...and I really hate the card actually... but I've learned to live with it for years...

but if people were to ask if its ban worthy.. YES..

How can a blue deck run 18 lands.. with 4 wasteland and still be consistent... if blue were the only color that can offer consistency to a deck...and all those other colors have to run more lands just to generate consistency.. it just shows that blue decks doesn't have as much limitation as to deck building....

As for blue being dominating in legacy... it always has been dominating.. just not as much as of lately... Ive always seen around 8 decks in the Dtb section of the source... and 4-6 of them are usually blue based... Goblins used to hang out there for quite some time.. as well as zoo, being one of the only real consistent non blue deck that stayed in the Decks to beat section... Loam was always in and out.. just like Rock..they stay there for a few months or weeks then out they go...

However brainstorm is really powerful, and has always been powerful.. As for players who would quit..because of a brainstorm ban... please do...

Nobody really took survival seriously before vengvine....Survival was tier 2... tier 1.5 at best...but vengvine changed the whole picture for survival...

Cards come and go... new cards printed will always push out old cards to a new level of power...we'll just have to accept change... and move forward...

[Hof]

It doesn't make sense to ban a card because it is good. Every card played in Legacy is good. Banned cards are the ones that destroy the format and restrict the playable decks to an extremely small pool. Right now we have a ton of decks that place well in tournaments and many strategies and colors are viable. We don't need each color to show up in exactly the same amounts. Green is as prevalent as blue now anyway.

+1

[TRS-Jo]

Obvious answer: no!

[(nameless one)]

I hope Brainstorm gets banned.

Half of you will quit Legacy and most likely sell your collection, which will be picked up by EDH players. Sounds good to me.

[Mr. Safety]

I know I'm in the minority of, well, one whole person in the universe, but I still think that restricting cards shouldn't be limited to vintage. Having restricted cards in legacy seems like a decent compromise, especially given the fiercely loyal legacy community that could potentially be 'banned out of the format' so to speak.

I think that restricting cards (like potentially Brainstorm, possibly unbanning and instead restricting other cards like Survival of the Fittest, Mystical Tutor, etc.) is a creative way to get around the eventual critical mass of over-powered cards of legacy. If you ban cards, you change Legacy's identity. If you restrict cards, you give Legacy a new haircut (not that I'm an expert on haircuts, see avatar for further information.)

[Sims]

I hope Brainstorm gets banned.

Half of you will quit Legacy and most likely sell your collection, which will be picked up by EDH players. Sounds good to me.

I like the way you think.

[DragoFireheart]

Awesome sample size. 96 isn't enough, and you want to trim it down to 16 to "prove" your point?

Tell me CorpT, why should I play an aggro deck that beats up on blue decks but auto-loses to combo when I could play a blue deck or a combo deck that doesn't auto-lose to anything?

I hope Brainstorm gets banned.

Half of you will quit Legacy and most likely sell your collection, which will be picked up by EDH players. Sounds good to me.

EDH is arguably better than Legacy anyways. I get to play dragons like Scion of the Ur-Dragon and awesome cards like Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Tooth and Nail, and Strip Mine? I can reanimate armies of monsters that do cool shit? The banned list is amazingly short? FUCK YEAH!

I guess I don't care too much if Legacy gets killed off because EDH is a superior eternal format anyways.

[OurSerratedDust]

Of the last three SCG top 16's, guess how many blue decks made the cut?

40 out of 48 decks were blue decks. This means that only 8 decks were non-blue....

Kinda ridiculous, right? I hate that wizards blatantly prints 3 amazing blue cards in the last two sets alone.

EDIT: Sorry if this info has been posted earlier in the thread.

[Solar Ice]

Should Brainstorm get banned? An absolute, complete and resounding: HELL NO.

Really guys do you want this awesome format to turn into the stagnant, boring as hell, so-called eternal format that is Modern? Because that is exactly what a ban on Brainstorm will do. The card is that important to Legacy.Along with Force of Will, it is imo, the cards that define this format and should not be touched under any circumstances. I'm sure some of you wouldn't mind a Modern MKII, but I think that for the vast majority of Legacy players that would be unacceptable.

Just consider for a moment the monstrous amount of decks and archetypes a ban on Brainstorm will cripple...Is that really the way to improve this format?

Imo, nothing needs to be banned. Neither BS, nor Delver, not even Snappy for that matter. Overall, I think its likely that Brainstorm is going nowhere (thankfully) but given the way they butchered Modern with the Ban list a couple of months ago, nothing would surprise me. One plus is they have been very, very smart with the Legacy and Vintage B/R lists, especially with Misstep.

Leave Brainstorm well alone. Or go play Modern.
My 0.02 cents.