[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)

[John Cox]

As I said, it's +1 storm in a hand that can already cast IT->Past in Flames and flashback IT->Tendrils. I've messed around with the deck and the situation where I need to do that has never come up.

The better argument to make is about desperation Past in Flames.

It comes up all the time if you have a maindeck past in flames, look at this line of play:

Ritual, Ritual, LED, Tutor, -> Past in flames, -> Flashback Ritual, Flashback Ritual, Flashback Tutor -> tendrils

That's only 9 storm, flashbacking a Gitaxian probe is very relevant.

[lordofthepit]

Gitaxian Probe is terrible with Past in Flames. If you whiff it turns off your Infernal Tutor. So it is free storm only in the case where you can already find and cast Tendrils.

Gitaxian Probe vs. Preordain is a legitimate point of discussion, but not in the context of Past in Flames.

If you're going with Past in Flames, you're already going to need black and red mana on the turn you go off, so you'll likely be using your duals, Petals, and Diamonds for that purpose. It is highly unlikely that you'll be able to generate a lot of blue mana anyway.

If for some reason you do need to string together a bunch of cantrips while going off with Past in Flames, it's either because you need to increase the storm count before getting the sure win or because you need a desperation play. In the first case, Preordain's ability to dig deeper is simply not a factor. In the second case, since blue mana is more likely to be limiting, Probe's ability to cycle for free is probably better than Preordain's scry 2; on its own, drawing a card without manipulation isn't impressive, but you'll be coupling this with the Brainstorm and Ponders that you play. (Note: you will be playing Ponders and Brainstorms that you have accessible before you consider Preordain, because on a desperation attempt to go off, the ability to dig deeper is extremely important.)

I can't think of any case in which you would play Probe before Infernal Tutor, such that it would mess up your hellbent. I suppose if you were naturally casting it from your hand, needing to hit anything except for a land (since you used up your land drop for the turn), you might occasionally run into that issue. But that situation is used unlikely, since Probes tend to be used earlier in the game to allow you to scout your opponent's hand. Moreover, that situation has nothing to do with Past in Flames.

[Anusien]

The answer to "Preordain versus Gitaxian Probe" is both.

[Malakai]

The answer to "Preordain versus Gitaxian Probe" is both.

I have missed you so much. *Looks for Bardo*

So far your list seems to be the most sound Past in Flames strategy, but I have some questions:

1. I understand why you cut Ad Naus, but how has it been without it?
2. How has only 4 protection been?
3. No IGGy?
4. Time Spiral?
5. The inclusion of Gitaxian Probe seems to be contradictory to some of your comments about it on the past couple pages. Can you expand on this card's role?

[thefringthing]

Looks like Liam's playing a TNT deck at SCG Legacy Open: Las Vegas right now. I'm sure he'll fill us in on his exact list after the tournament. (Or we'll find out in the coverage.)

[siqatzi]

I'm new to this deck - I'm building a UBr list with Past in Flames instead of IGG but no Burning Wish, with Gitaxian Probe + Cabal Therapy instead of Preordain + Thoughtseize, and without Grim Tutor - and I was wondering if anyone could advise me on using anti-hate cards and on sideboarding? Specifically...

(1) I've seen some lists with a single bounce spell maindeck. I don't quite understand this in lists without Grim Tutor, as the only situation in which you could Infernal Tutor for your bounce spell (without wrecking your own hand) is if you had a PiF and some rituals in your graveyard already, which seems marginal. Are you just hoping to draw a one-of in the rare situations where your opponent has also maindecked permanent hate? Or is the plan to Ad Nauseam to draw half your deck before using your bounce spell?

(2) Sideboarding plans I'm aware of include putting in some draw (eg Dark Confidant) against discard and anti-hate cards against hate (Chain of Vapour, Slaughter Pact). I guess you might also swap out PiF for IGG against non-FoW decks. What should you bring in against counter-heavy control, and what should you bring in against tempo? And what can you actually take out without damaging the combo? Mana (Petals and Cabal Rituals) or cantrips (I suppose Ponder)?

I've read quite a bit of this thread and its equivalent on MTGS, but not the entirety of either - so if the answer to my questions is "go and do your own research", then fair enough.. But to anyone who can help me, thank you in advance :)

[John Cox]

I'm new to this deck - I'm building a UBr list with Past in Flames instead of IGG but no Burning Wish, with Gitaxian Probe + Cabal Therapy instead of Preordain + Thoughtseize, and without Grim Tutor - and I was wondering if anyone could advise me on using anti-hate cards and on sideboarding? Specifically...

(1) I've seen some lists with a single bounce spell maindeck. I don't quite understand this in lists without Grim Tutor, as the only situation in which you could Infernal Tutor for your bounce spell (without wrecking your own hand) is if you had a PiF and some rituals in your graveyard already, which seems marginal. Are you just hoping to draw a one-of in the rare situations where your opponent has also maindecked permanent hate? Or is the plan to Ad Nauseam to draw half your deck before using your bounce spell?

The single bounce spell is easy to draw or tutor for with grim tutor after casting Ad Nauseam, or at least in theory.

(2) Sideboarding plans I'm aware of include putting in some draw (eg Dark Confidant) against discard and anti-hate cards against hate (Chain of Vapour, Slaughter Pact). I guess you might also swap out PiF for IGG against non-FoW decks. What should you bring in against counter-heavy control, and what should you bring in against tempo? And what can you actually take out without damaging the combo? Mana (Petals and Cabal Rituals) or cantrips (I suppose Ponder)?

If your going with UBr then bring in Pyroblasts for tempo and confidants for counter heavy, you can easily take out two ponders a cabal ritual and a land for those cards.

I would also recommend you start with the standard list that includes Grim tutor before experimenting with the deck too much. Playing with only four tutors is a bit difficult.

[siqatzi]

The single bounce spell is easy to draw or tutor for with grim tutor after casting Ad Nauseam, or at least in theory.

If your going with UBr then bring in Pyroblasts for tempo and confidants for counter heavy, you can easily take out two ponders a cabal ritual and a land for those cards.

I would also recommend you start with the standard list that includes Grim tutor before experimenting with the deck too much. Playing with only four tutors is a bit difficult.

Thanks for your advice :)

Pyroblasts/REBs sounds like a good idea. If I was bringing in those then would I want to have a basic mountain somewhere in the 75 (currently running just 1 x Volcanic as my red source)? And considering red SB cards - is there any use in having EtW somewhere in the 75?

Sadly I don't have access to Grim Tutors so I'm currently running 4 Infernal Tutor/2 Ad Nauseam. I like consistency in my combo, so if I had GTs I'd be running that build, but as they cost well over $150 it's a moot point for me...

[xfxf]

@lorddotm

So SCG Vegas is over, I'm still curious about your build with PiF. Will you share your approach and tell us a bit about how the tournament went?

[Anusien]

The theory behind Time Spiral is.. interesting.
I cut Lotus Petal for Rite of Flame. I feel pretty good about this choice, I think. It makes you a little bit slower, but it makes you much more resilient to disruption because you need fewer rituals to go lethal (since you can rebuy Rite but not Lotus Petal).

Once you cut Petal, Ad Nauseam becomes mediocre. You have to go into it floating at least B. It costs 6 now instead of 5. I went looking at draw spells. I considered Diminishing Returns, but that costs 5 (since you have to float mana as well) and has risks. Time Spiral costs 6 and produces a ton of mana.

The neat thing, in theory, about having Past in Flames and Time Spiral as your engine is that your life total is a resource again. You can go to the last possible turn and wait out decks in a way you can't with Ad Nauseam.


Gitaxian Probe is in there because it's bonkers. You can peek at their hand and know exactly what you have to beat and how many turns you have.


I will mess around with this more soon, maybe after Worlds, and we'll see what happens.

[JJ_JKidd]

@lorddotm

So SCG Vegas is over, I'm still curious about your build with PiF. Will you share your approach and tell us a bit about how the tournament went?

Yeah how about that?

[thefringthing]

Liam mentioned on Twitter that his report will be up tomorrow.

Based on the coverage, we know he was playing six discard spells main, and twelve rituals. I didn't see any Chrome Moxes, Gitaxian Probes, or Preordains. He may or may not have been playing any basic lands. He had a Silent Departure in his sideboard.

[TheRedBaron]

What's the consensus on Grim Tutors these days?... I just still think that 6 life from a tutor is rough. If you run, say 2 GT, use 1 to get AN = 3 life, then if you AN into the other GT thats 3 more life. Wouldn't it be technically better to run 2 AN, as that's only 5 life?

I'm still toying around with LDV instead.

[egosum]

I think That Grim tutor is fine as a wish target, but if you are not splashing red then, sadly, we need it and there is no real replacement.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[TheRedBaron]

So, how many GT to run in U/B ANT?

I love ANT, Tried it with PiF without RoF... bad idea... I just feel like... Sadly, If I'm going to splash red, I'll just play TES.

Don't think LDV is viable? I can get Grim Tutors and cost is no concern, I just can't get them right now.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Play 2. Grim Tutor lets you do goofy shit.

[Malakai]

If cost is no issue get Grim Tutors and play either UB or UBw. Burning Wish can be good sometimes, but in general it's not as good as having the six most efficient tutors and a real sideboard.

[ThomasDowd]

What's the consensus on Grim Tutors these days?... I just still think that 6 life from a tutor is rough. If you run, say 2 GT, use 1 to get AN = 3 life, then if you AN into the other GT thats 3 more life. Wouldn't it be technically better to run 2 AN, as that's only 5 life?

I'm still toying around with LDV instead.

If you are AN'ing you are winning. griming for an AN is in my opinion not a very good line. I personally actually hate using ad nauseum unless I absolutely have to or in a match where they do not have counterspells and prefer the tutor chain. since i know that ends in victory instead of investing 2-3 rituals+ tutor/ cards and then fizzling because i didn't flip IT + LED to get hellbent or have to go with no mana floating and never hit a petal. That being said I really like grim tutor since it is one of the best cards for what it does in black. the times I've cast I either did it to set up free storm (LED) go get a piece of disruption to go off the next turn or whatever. it is demonic tutor but costs one more. you lose 3 life big whoop. If you are not crutching on AN this is a non issue.

[NesretepNoj]

What's the consensus on Grim Tutors these days?... I just still think that 6 life from a tutor is rough. If you run, say 2 GT, use 1 to get AN = 3 life, then if you AN into the other GT thats 3 more life. Wouldn't it be technically better to run 2 AN, as that's only 5 life?

In my experience, you mostly use Grim Tutor to chain into a lethal Tendrils (without the use of any "engine") or in conjunction with Ill-Gotten Gains. In either case, the life loss doesn't matter.

In this deck, Ad Nauseam is an emergency button, only to be used if no other option is available.

[AriLax]

LDV is complete trash. You need to cast it the turn before you go off or you need UU, it is miserable with Ad Naus (beyond Grim Tutor), takes a million life to find Tendrils with, sucks with IGG, puts you down cards in hand on the key combo turn.... there are more I don't remember now. Tried it on literal Day 1 of testing and trashed it after playing the card twice.

Grim Tutor is just solid. It looks/feels miserable compared to Infernal and the life loss is obnoxious, but what are your other options? 4 Infernals isn't enough, and Burning Wish fucks up your mana (esp. vs Daze/Waste decks) and doesn't really get assured kills unless you side an IT. In exchange, you gain Earwig Squad resilience, G1 hate card answers, and EtW. Basically, you trade consistency for situational power, and until one of those situations is a big deal it's not worth it.