The State of Modern

[KevinTrudeau]

Pauper would have been the better replacement but I understand that Not only the old cards (reprint issue) but the power of some commons like brainstorm, dark ritual and gush could become harmful. Modern dodges this and As far As I know the market, in case of pauper as a PT/GP format, the prices would be explode too and i wouldn't Be surprised if the chase-cards would be 3-4€ themselves looking at all the uncommon removal of the last Sets like GftT or dismember

-Commons aren't affected by the Reserve List.
-Brainstorm isn't all that good without proper fetchlands in the format, hence why it doesn't really see play in MTGO Pauper. Individual cards need to be evaluated differently in each format they're legal in.
-If a card/strategy becomes too oppressive, they could, you know, ban it.
-Go for the Throat and Dismember are uncommons (as of now), and are therefore not legal in Pauper.

Damn, sanctioning Pauper just keeps sounding better and better, especially when you consider the MTGO banlist is only two cards long right now. More would likely need to be added if it were to be transposed to paper (High Tide being the biggest offender I think), but you're still looking at far and away the shortest banlist of any Eternal format. It even passes the LaPille test in that it feels a lot like 'real Magic'. In addition, every legal card post-Stronghold is easily identifiable for newer players, which is something WotC was going for with the modern borders when they made Modern 8th edition-present.

[Lemnear]

My point about GftT and Dismember (knowing that they are uncommons but widely played) is, that they costed around 2€ in their heights without speculation and I was just guessing that real chase commons (high tide and other engine cards) would be about that high.

[UnderwaterGuy]

My point about GftT and Dismember (knowing that they are uncommons but widely played) is, that they costed around 2€ in their heights without speculation and I was just guessing that real chase commons (high tide and other engine cards) would be about that high.

Nah I think you're really misunderstanding Pauper. There is no reprint issue and the cards are fairly cheap. Only really Lotus Petal would probably cost more than a dollar or two. It's a decently balanced format, certainly better than Modern.

[Lemnear]

Nah I think you're really misunderstanding Pauper. There is no reprint issue and the cards are fairly cheap. Only really Lotus Petal would probably cost more than a dollar or two. It's a decently balanced format, certainly better than Modern.

I'm not talking about the recent price of cards like nightscape familiar but of their potential price if pauper would be a supported PT/GP format. Blazing Shoal was a crap Card, worth a few cent and exploded to 10€ over here. Don't you think it's obvious that this would happen to pauper cards as well? The point I was trying to make with GftT is that rarity alone is not a 100% indicator for the price as cards like Berserk, GftT, Wasteland etc. show

In short:

You: "Pauper is cheap"
Me: "...as long as it isn't a widely played and supported format. Otherwise the secondary market of those cards would gain steam and prices explode"
You: "no, pauper is cheap atm."

So you disagree that any of my arguments is able to influence the card prices even with the recent prove modern offered?

[dontbiteitholmes]

I'm not talking about the recent price of cards like nightscape familiar but of their potential price if pauper would be a supported PT/GP format. Blazing Shoal was a crap Card, worth a few cent and exploded to 10€ over here. Don't you think it's obvious that this would happen to pauper cards as well? The point I was trying to make with GftT is that rarity alone is not a 100% indicator for the price as cards like Berserk, GftT, Wasteland etc. show

In short:

You: "Pauper is cheap"
Me: "...as long as it isn't a widely played and supported format. Otherwise the secondary market of those cards would gain steam and prices explode"
You: "no, pauper is cheap atm."

So you disagree that any of my arguments is able to influence the card prices even with the recent prove modern offered?

Commons will always be cheap for the most part because there are just way more of them out there. If they were to make Pauper a supported format I'm sure the very first thing they would do is to ban Sinkhole since it's actually borderline broken in real Pauper which I'm sure is part of the reason it was reprinted at uncommon in MTGO. Commons are already played in literally every format and almost without exception they are cheap. I can't even think of the most expensive Legacy common outside of Sinkhole, maybe Daze? Most of the commons that are "expensive" are still under $3. It doesn't matter if people need these cards for Legacy, Vintage, or Pauper, they still only need 4x. Commons are also wide open to be reprinted so WotC could stick them in FtVs and Duel Decks until the end of time. There are lots of reasons Pauper will probably never be supported by WotC but lets not bullshit ourselves into thinking that the format making a handful of otherwise unplayable commons shoot up in value so much that the format is too expensive is one of them. There are commons only printed in one set over 10 years ago that every Legacy players wants 4x of and they are still very affordable, it's not like Pauper would break the game.

[Mr. Safety]

Commons will always be cheap for the most part because there are just way more of them out there. If they were to make Pauper a supported format I'm sure the very first thing they would do is to ban Sinkhole since it's actually borderline broken in real Pauper which I'm sure is part of the reason it was reprinted at uncommon in MTGO. Commons are already played in literally every format and almost without exception they are cheap. I can't even think of the most expensive Legacy common outside of Sinkhole, maybe Daze? Most of the commons that are "expensive" are still under $3. It doesn't matter if people need these cards for Legacy, Vintage, or Pauper, they still only need 4x. Commons are also wide open to be reprinted so WotC could stick them in FtVs and Duel Decks until the end of time. There are lots of reasons Pauper will probably never be supported by WotC but lets not bullshit ourselves into thinking that the format making a handful of otherwise unplayable commons shoot up in value so much that the format is too expensive is one of them. There are commons only printed in one set over 10 years ago that every Legacy players wants 4x of and they are still very affordable, it's not like Pauper would break the game.

Bingo. I think the most expensive common aside from Sinkhole is probably Chain Lightning.

The format wouldn't get too expensive to play...but once a defined metagame was established, you'd see a minor bump in prices.

To my knowledge, the only card banned in Pauper is Cranial Plating. Is this right?

[Sims]

Bingo. I think the most expensive common aside from Sinkhole is probably Chain Lightning.

The format wouldn't get too expensive to play...but once a defined metagame was established, you'd see a minor bump in prices.

To my knowledge, the only card banned in Pauper is Cranial Plating. Is this right?

Online the banned cards are Cranial Plating and Frantic Search.

Edit for clarity:

Sinkhole and High Tide are paper commons that are not legal in online Pauper due to being printed as uncommons in masters editions. By that proxy there are also cards that are illegal in paper but are legal online such as Thermokarst that were printed in ME as commons but are uncommons in their paper printings.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Online the banned cards are Cranial Plating and Frantic Search.

Edit for clarity:

Sinkhole and High Tide are paper commons that are not legal in online Pauper due to being printed as uncommons in masters editions. By that proxy there are also cards that are illegal in paper but are legal online such as Thermokarst that were printed in ME as commons but are uncommons in their paper printings.

Yeah the only relevant cards not online I can think of are Sinkhole, High Tide, and Hymn to Tourach. All of which would potentially be banned if the format were to transition to paper.

[Sims]

Yeah the only relevant cards not online I can think of are Sinkhole, High Tide, and Hymn to Tourach. All of which would potentially be banned if the format were to transition to paper.

Forgot about Hymn, which makes me feel rather stupid.

There are people who played pauper tournaments with no banned list in a thread about it a hwile back that claimed Hymn actually kept the Tide and Frantic Search combos pretty well in check, but I'd be leary of having Tide/Search in the format at all. Hymn, without those, might be too powerful but who knows.

I really wish Wizards would pick up Pauper as an official paper format as well, it was always my favorite format online before I cashed out of MTGO entirely. Perhaps I might have to reinvest into some modo pauper.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Forgot about Hymn, which makes me feel rather stupid.

There are people who played pauper tournaments with no banned list in a thread about it a hwile back that claimed Hymn actually kept the Tide and Frantic Search combos pretty well in check, but I'd be leary of having Tide/Search in the format at all. Hymn, without those, might be too powerful but who knows.

I really wish Wizards would pick up Pauper as an official paper format as well, it was always my favorite format online before I cashed out of MTGO entirely. Perhaps I might have to reinvest into some modo pauper.

Frantic Search is already banned and I don't see that changing. Mono-Black is already tier 1 online even without Sinkhole and Hymn, it's likely Sinkhole would at least be banned and maybe Hymn as well. I don't think High Tide would change too much. Empty the Warrens combo or WildGrowth/Temporal Fissure are much better in the end than any Tide deck I can think of and High Tide would let your opponent leave a single Island untapped and still have access to Counterspell.

[ColeM]

My group has played quite a bit of paper pauper for the last year or so (although, I don't think we've kept up with any recent changes in the last few months). Our banned list only included Cranial Plating and High Tide (which may or may not have been deserving of the ban). I'll just add some of our observations about this format here:

1) High Tide with Frantic Search is far and away the best combo deck. It's fast (usually turn 3), consistent, and packs 4 demonic tutors (Merchant Scroll) and has access to the best spell against countermagic (Gigadrowse). The variants incorporating Mnemonic Wall are absolutely ridiculous. However, Faerie Macabre is virtually unanswerable hate for the Mnemonic Wall version and other kill methods (Grapeshot) can also be combated with appropriate hate cards. We banned High Tide simply because it appeared to warp the format too far (you either ran hate cards or ran Suicide-Black or you lost).

2) Hymn decks are probably the best. UB control with Hymn + Mulldrifter may be the best deck.

3) Sinkhole probably isn't ban worthy. It's good, but it's mostly a sideboard card. Mono Black suicide would need better creatures to make Sinkhole a real problem.

3) Combo isn't all that scary without High Tide + Frantic Search legal. Hymn + hate keeps those decks in check from what we saw. Sinkhole also effectively punishes Cloudpost decks and anything trying to abuse Frantic Search.

If this format was actually official in paper I imagine that Cranial Plating and High Tide would be banned. Hymn would probably be the only other card possibly banned.

[dontbiteitholmes]

My group has played quite a bit of paper pauper for the last year or so (although, I don't think we've kept up with any recent changes in the last few months). Our banned list only included Cranial Plating and High Tide (which may or may not have been deserving of the ban). I'll just add some of our observations about this format here:

1) High Tide with Frantic Search is far and away the best combo deck. It's fast (usually turn 3), consistent, and packs 4 demonic tutors (Merchant Scroll) and has access to the best spell against countermagic (Gigadrowse). The variants incorporating Mnemonic Wall are absolutely ridiculous. However, Faerie Macabre is virtually unanswerable hate for the Mnemonic Wall version and other kill methods (Grapeshot) can also be combated with appropriate hate cards. We banned High Tide simply because it appeared to warp the format too far (you either ran hate cards or ran Suicide-Black or you lost).

2) Hymn decks are probably the best. UB control with Hymn + Mulldrifter may be the best deck.

3) Sinkhole probably isn't ban worthy. It's good, but it's mostly a sideboard card. Mono Black suicide would need better creatures to make Sinkhole a real problem.

3) Combo isn't all that scary without High Tide + Frantic Search legal. Hymn + hate keeps those decks in check from what we saw. Sinkhole also effectively punishes Cloudpost decks and anything trying to abuse Frantic Search.

If this format was actually official in paper I imagine that Cranial Plating and High Tide would be banned. Hymn would probably be the only other card possibly banned.

Yeah with Frantic Search gone there just isn't as much of a reason to run Tide though and we can safely assume the Online rules would carry over the bans for Frantic Search + Cranial Plating. The potential for a combo still exists, but without Frantic Search I just don't see it being more broken then other combos that are already out there and we can assume that Frantic Search banned online where High Tide doesn't even exist means it probably needs to be banned IRL where High Tide does exist. Mono-Black is really good even without Hymn+Sinkhole. With them you just build a slightly more midrange version then the ones that go around online and it stomps most decks. WotC probably did right by leaving Sinkhole and Hymn out of the equation. I might have my list for IRL pauper without Sinkhole and Hymn banned around somewhere, I'd have to dig it up, but it was pretty savage and had solid matchups across the board. One or the other or both probably would have to go. It's debatable whether it's less fun to get Sinkholed turns 2 and 3 or Hymned T2+T3. The only matchups that should concern you that I can think of would be maybe mono-white or mono-red since Mono-White has pro-black guys and mono-red can potentially burn you out if you don't draw into Tendrils or get overrun since you are also hitting yourself for damage on the way up the curve.