Chaos Warp provides an answer to some troublesome permanents in mono-red.Originally Posted by battozai7
"If magic is your crutch, cast it aside and learn to walk without it." —Teferi
you do bring up a good point and i think i may just switch over but i sure will miss the look on peoples faces when i drop magus and equip jitte (i did it against 43 lands in my last tournament when he thought he had the game won and the entire room just stopped and no one had even concieved the possibility) but your right that does seem like itd be way more consistant even if it does mean less aggro. ill have to see the difference in play and see if the blood moon slows me down too much....though now thinking about it the decks id use it agaisnt arent very likely to have a forest or plains out by turn 3 to to iill the enchantment
@goblin settler thanks for that one id been tryign to find an answer to ghostly prison for a while but couldnt(though the deck that runs it is a white painter deck which i should be able to handle with my mox monkeys but id liek to ahve a way around ti to speed up my kill so im not sittign there attackign with 1 per turn goign dear god dont draw another painter/grindstone) still though scary card that chaos warp.
I don't mean to be too critical (just tossing this out there for sake of suggestion), but if you want to play equipment in Goblins, you should really consider Basilisk Collar over Jitte. You could possibly play it turn one with hands without Lackey or Vial (but I wouldn't really recommend that against the toughest MUs) You could then dominate with Sharpshooter and play a copy of the really-not-too-bad Sparksmith. Sparksmith only ever sucked against combo, Zoo, or other decks that either play few creatures or hurt you fast. Jitte is kind of expensive and doesn't do enough against the big creatures that are good against Goblins.
Edit - Suggesting playing anything on turn one instead of Lackey or Vial sounds like an incredibly dumb idea on my part. Collar might be useful t1 against Burn or any deck relying ground dwelling big dudes where in both circumstances it is a nice defense. Otherwise, keep digging. I can say with 100% confidence that keeping hands with Lightning Bolt and no other one drop can be the correct decision against Zoo, and I feel that might be correct at times for the similarly vial-less-aggro-deck Maverick, but I don't have an enormous amount of experience against it yet. The same goes for MD Relic of Progenitus against grave dependent decks and decks that might just FoW it, but then you really have to know what your opponent is playing G1 to really take advantage of this. If you do happen to know what your opponent is playing against, knowledge of variables like these can improve match-ups by precious percentage points. People used to keep hands with Mogg Fanatic before he was nerfed...but ultimately Vial and Lackey are almost always the best turn one play and should be mulliganed to viciously.
But then again, I don't know squat about the Lands or Painter/Grindstone match-ups thus far, but I'll probably have to do a little research in the future should I attend more competitive tournaments. Does anyone know what the best way to beat either or both of these decks is? I'd like to know, whether it be mono red, Br, Bg, or Brg.
Last edited by Red Army; 11-15-2011 at 02:40 AM.
Remember, it's only a game, a game dominated by Goblins.
'but ultimately Vial and Lackey are almost always the best turn one play and should be mulliganed to viciously'
Along with deck construction, this seems to be the essential secret to goblins. So how do we increase our chances of having vials or lackeys in our starting hand? Well by spreading them out throughout our deck. This however seems immoral and a form of cheating, but do opponents do this?
Well once in the 96 UK nationals type 2 quarter finals i dealt my opponents hand into 3 equal piles of every third card and then placed them on top of each other. Lo and behold he drew either 7 lands or 7 non lands and the whole hall went quiet as he was shamed for cheating! He then cracked and sulked away.
But stacking decks will increase your chance of winning, especially in a deck like goblins that needs to mulligan viciously.
You decide, is it deck stacking or just shuffling? Have you ever come across this? Thoughts and comments?
Hi, I recently picked up this deck, and I wanted your oppinion on how aggressive I should mulligan for lackey/vial. Like should I ship away a hand with some combination of piledrivers, warmarshalls and warchiefs, but no onedrop?
Also what good sideboard options do I have for combo.
Stacking your deck is cheating.
If your opponent stacks his deck, call a judge and quite likely he'll get disqualified.
If, however, you suspect your opponent stacking his deck and deal his deck into piles - you are the one cheating. Do not do that - simply call a judge.
Rearranging cards while tutoring(fetching) is also forbidden.
Drawing into Lackey/Vial within one or two mulligans is so freakishly consistent that there is no reason to try to buffer your odds by cheating a little bit, or playing something like Serum Powder. No greater than one out of ten games you have to mulligan to four, and you can still win those sometimes. I like my deck to be shuffled as thoroughly as possible, as that not only optimizes the odds of drawing Lackey/Vial, but drawing good hands in general.
@ muscleb - So, you should always try to start of with Lackey or Vial. They are the two best one-mana accelerants in the game and draw answers long before the opponent is comfortable dealing with them. They also provide much needed 'pressure' to make the mana-denial effective in the early turns. There are a few exceptions. Against graveyard based decks you want grave hate over everything else, so LoV, Crypt, and/or Relic take priority over Lackey/Vial. Against storm combo, you really want to get to Chalice of the Void or some other combo hate. There are probably other t1 plays that are viable against particular match-ups, like how I would keep a hand versus Zoo that Lightning Bolts a Cat t1, then follows up with MWM turn two, maybe with a Gempalm in hand to put the deck in the control role very early against a deck where it helps.
While you don't necessarily need the acceleration provided by Lackey or Vial, just playing them on turn one is always positive, and Mental Misstep is a distant memory at this point.
I've never played at a tourney so strict that someone watching me break up clumps as I Matron. Is that illegal? I tend to break up clumps with Matron and then do 10-20 riffle shuffles, but I don't pile shuffle and riffle 15-30 times like I do before the game. If it is illegal, I suppose I should just shuffle as vigorously as before the game started. That's kind of a pain in the ass but it keeps the game fair and keeps the deck consistent. I'm just glad I'm not playing with fetch lands right now.
Edit - Ugh, now I think I need to buy a couple Dismember. I'm starting to feel like x2 Dismember is the perfect substitute for x3 Bolt. I keep forgetting about them, but since Zoo is practically dead and Burn/Sligh are somewhat rouge archetypes, very few decks hurt you quickly enough to make them bad.
Last edited by Red Army; 11-15-2011 at 06:23 PM.
Remember, it's only a game, a game dominated by Goblins.
Beat Lands-
1) Mull to Aether Vial or Lackey
2) Fetch basics since any nonbasics will be Wasted
3) Keep a Wasteland in hand for blowing up their Glacial Chasm the turn you swing for the win.
4) Side in Graveyard hate as Lands is essentially a Recursion deck. Lands has an extremely difficult time winning through Leyline of the Void or Extirpate.
Beat Painter/Grindstone
1) Pyrokinesis or any Instant speed burn to kill either Painter's Servant, Goblin Welder, or Auriok Salvagers (remember that Goblin Welder is a Goblin and as such makes Gempalm burn for more)
2) If they're playing the show and tell build (AKA if they run Blue) don't side out your Stingscourger. You might need him to bounce an Emrakul.
@jrw1985
Thank you. That was very clear and makes a lot of sense. Just out of curiosity, because you didn't include mull to Lackey/Vial in the Painter matchup, would you keep a hand with Pyrokinesis/Interaction over Vial/Lackey? Also, would you bring in Chalice? It looks pretty good, but would it be worth it to keep Lightning Bolt in rather than bringing in Chalice, if that is the situation I face?
...Or, I could just be wanting those uncommon hands without Lackey/Vial too much. I said it myself, as many other before, that it is too easy to get them via mulligan not to try. It's just that sometimes I will be inclined to keep, say, a five card hand with removal/interaction rather than dig deeper, and have been able to win games under certain situations doing so, albiet with limited exposure.
I find it important to recognize not only how frequently one wants to start with Lackey/Vial, but what hands are worthwhile in the relevant match-up to keep without them, besides the obvious ones. I wouldn't keep a hand with Perish without a one drop against anything but Elf decks to be honest, but if I were boarding 2 Pulverize for Affinity-ish decks I would keep a hand without a one drop (a situation where Instigator is rather silly).
Remember, it's only a game, a game dominated by Goblins.
I've also won games where I kept slow hands with no Vial/Lackey/Instigator because I knew they were mulliganing for their answers to my turn 1 accelerators. Just something to keep in mind.
What is the hand you guys would be aiming for when you're on the draw? I can see vial being important but lackey probably would lose his value if you're on the draw...
Well, the hands with Lightning Bolt and mana-denial are particularly good on the draw against Zoo or Elves. Lackey and Vial are both very slow, but are better than nothing, but you can also do better than nothing by slowing down their tempo on turn one or two and out drawing them from there forward.
Unfortunately, decks like Zoo and Elves are few and far between, and creature removal on turn one is kind of bad against Vial aggro and most everything else, I believe. Lackey or Vial should always be the primary focus unless you have a bit of insight in the match-up, like how you'd always rather get grave hate against Reanimator (heck, most even board out Vial).
Port/Wasteland, by slowing the opponents game, can increase the power of Lackeys and Vial drawn on turn two or three to the approximate value of playing it on turn one. Most of the time when I have had success playing something besides Lackey/Vial on turn one is when I mana-d'd them once or twice and drew Lackey/Vial early. I guess it makes sense...if you expect to see one all the time, and you don't get it, there is a good chance one or two of them is hiding in the top three cards of the library, right?
Remember, it's only a game, a game dominated by Goblins.
Out of curiosity you stumbled into Goblins' most-glaring weakness- It is generally very difficult for the deck to cheat Goblins into play WHILE disrupting fast combo. Since fast combo will only give you 2-3 turns before it kills you, you need to spend turns 1-2 disrupting it. This naturally interferes with the deck's usual plan of playing Vial/lackey T1. The real kick in the teeth though is that mulling to hate is more important than mulling to Vial/Lackey, since Vial/Lackey won't keep you from dying T2. But, without Vial/Lackey T1, it becomes much more difficult for you to put on pressure and kill your opponent in the extra turn or two you've bought yourself.
Against Painter hate is paramount. It can kill you too quickly otherwise. Fortunately, hate comes in the form of Artifact hate and creature removal. Vial/Lackey is still great, but you really need an answer to keep yourself undecked. Chalice is useful against the Bomberman version to shut off their Infinite mana engine, but that's about it.
im currently playing with 4 lackey, 4 vials, and 2 warren instigator. in my meta there seems to be loads of removal in every deck i face. i always mull until i have an enabler because my opponents mull until they have removal. and 95% of the time my lackey does not connect at any point during the game. especially not turn 2 he usually gets swords'd. even when i get like a lackey and an instigator they usually dont connect. so by turn 3 or 4 i usually have like 1 piledriver and 1 warchief.
i was wondering if i should run more enablers (+2 warren instigator) or if i should try to hold my hand back instead of outright playing as many goblins as early as possible.
example, i draw a hand with 3 lands, vial, lackey, warchief, matron. should i drop vial turn 1, and a 2 cost goblin turn 2 if i get it. then wait until vial gets to 3 tokens and my opponent is tapped out (which he is likely to be because he will play threats because i have none in play) then while he is tapped out vial in warchief, and cast lackey + whatever (piledriver or removal for their threat) and swing with the warchief and lackey because they have haste. i feel like this line of play might work better because they are (hopefully) tapped out and cannot respond and because lackey can attack the turn he comes into play leaving my opponent with no opportunity to respond to it. then lackey gets through and the rest of the hand gets dropped.
Sounds like a solid base for me. Vs aggro or control, dropping vial turn 1 is pretty good, then you disrupt their mana base with Port/Wasteland and end of their turn vial Lackey in and see if they have the instand removal. Otherwise Lackey seeing StP is a fair deal, you keep on dropping threats while your vial is growing and maybe they can't handle your Piledriver, warchief or whatever. I wouldn't play the 2 drop turn 2. just vial it in and keep on Porting. End of turn 3 vial in Matron, searching for Ringleader and on it goes.
I wouldn't play more Instigators though. But a complete list would be more useful for a comment on this.
Gobbos: Kings of flavortext!
Well you should play the vial first, then when you get 1 counter on it look and see what your opponent does during his turn. If he's tapped out or tapped the mana for removal (for example taps his W mana source) play lackey EOT. If he doesn't have a blocker, you get a free swing.
Turn 2, you could play a second (2-drop) goblin if you get it, I usually don't if I have vial though - cause I'll just play it EOT on my opponents turn.
Last edited by FoxBlade; 11-18-2011 at 01:35 PM.
@big bopper: i am currently running (after small modification from my last update)
//Lands [21]
4 wasteland
4 arid mesa
4 bloodstained mire
2 taiga
2 badlands
5 mountain
//Core [26]:
4 AEther Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege-Gang Commander
//Others [13]:
4 gempalm incinerator
3 warren weirding
4 warren instigator
1 wort, boggart auntie
1 goblin sharpshooter
sideboard: 4 Lotv
3 krosan grip
3-4 perish
1 tin street hooligan
1 goblin artificer
3 red elemental blast
i was wondering if i should cut something for 3-4 rishdan ports. or if that would make me too exposed to land hate.
Played in a 43 man tourney yesterday. I ran the following-
Core
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
3 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Seige-Gang Commander
14 Flex
2 Warren Weirding
1 Stingscourger
2 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Goblin Chieftain
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
2 Tarfire
1 Goblin Wizard
2 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
22 Land
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
3 Badlands
2 Taiga
5 Mountains
5 Fetchlands
Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Perish
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Pyrokinesis
1 Earwig Squad
1 Mindbreak Trap
Recently I have been playing a Rb build, but I decided that Stoneforge has become so entirely ubiquitous that I might as well play a G splash as well, just for Ancient Grudge. Wort and Wizard were horrible. I knew Wort would be, but played her anyway, and I thought I'd give Wizard a try for shits and giggles. Well, a 4cc Aether Vial is just a little on the slow side. Still, the list was solid.
I had gotten some heat for my previous build being too tool-box-y, and after playing it for a few weeks I grew to agree. Goblins only wins by bashing face with a horde, not by having answers and playing control all the time. I tend to go through cycles where I make my list more and more toolbox oriented, then I realize I'm losing MUs I should win because I'm not putting the pressure on like I have to, which is what makes Goblins win. So i splashed G for AG and cut Cabal Therapy from my sideboard. I also cut Skirk Prospector and MWM MD to make room for more action.
Tarfire - I haven't played Tarfire ever until yesterday. Wow. That card was amazing for me. It was burning our Bobs, SFMs and Snapcasters all day. I only ran 2. i could see running 3 or 4 though.
Tuktuk Scrapper - Equipment is everywhere and I've been struggling with finding a decent MD answer. Well, I think Scrapper is as good as we're going to do. At 4 mana he's pricey, but I've found having a few more viable Vial-able options at 4cc helps the deck play vials more fluidly. I had been running one, but kept finding myself trying to wait for the perfect opportunity to use him (since he's a one shot deal). Running 2 takes some pressure off. If the first one gets countered you always have a second.
Onto the report-
R1 - RUG Punishing Burnwillows
G1 He got the Burnwillows and Fire going, but I Wasted his Burnwillows, he stalled on threats, and I won.
G2 I sided in Leylines since I saw from the previous game that he was running Punishing Fire, Snapcaster mage, and Life from the Loam. I had a Leyline and Vial in my opening hand, but no gas. I kept. Leyline kept him off any tricks, but did little against his 2 Tamogoyfs (which were huge thanks to my Tribal Instants and Sorceries). I just didn't have any gas in hand. Goblin Wizard came into play, but had nothing to put into play himself. What a waste. I also drew a 2nd Leyline. I just didn't get the cards I needed and lost, despite a very promising start.
G3 I mulled to 5 and didn't get any R producing lands. Lost. Damn.
0-1
R2 GWB
G1 He plays a Bob. I Tarfire it. He beats me up with a KotR, but I eventually build a horde too large for him to Maze. W
G2 He plays a Vampire Hexmage. I have a Vial but no removal in hand for the Hexmage or Wasteland for Dark Depths, so i cast matron and grab Stingscourger. I didn't have enough mana to Matron for AND cast removal on the Hexmage, so I needed to tutor an instant speed answer to Marrit Lange. Since my Vial was at 2 Stingscourger made the most sense. A dark depths comes down next turn, but he can't pop the hexmage knowing I have stingscourger. This gives me time to draw into Wasteland + removal and I force him to try and activate Hexmage on Depths which I waste in response. Free to tick up Vial again I go back to Goblins old tricks and win.
1-1
R3 UW
G1 He was kinda mana screwed and I seemed to have all the answers.
G2 Much the same, only he wasn't mana screwed this time. I just had all the answers.
2-1
R4 RUG Threshold
G1 He just beats me down. Not even close. I think my hand was Vial and 3/4 drops. So he Forces my vial T1 and I'm too slow for the flying men and Goyfs. L
G2 We both mull to 6. He lands an early Delver but I'm able to answer it and build a horde while keeping him off mana. W
G3 He mulls to 6 and proceeds to beat me down. I build a horde while eating damage, basically the same gameplan I use against Zoo. I figured it works in this match because he has Delver (Nacatl), Goy, Lightning Bolt and Snapcaster to replay Bolts. Once I'm at 9 life I manage to stabilize. This is the important point against decks with burn. You can let yourself fall to slightly below ten life, but you need to keep yourself out of burn range. I turn the tables and start attacking. I'm getting damage through and Prowl and Earwig squad which removes some Goyfs and Delvers. I pull out the win.
3-1
R5 UWB
G1 I mull to 6 and keep a mediocre hand with no 1 drop. I lose.
G2 I mull to 5 but have a Lackey while he keeps a hand with Brainstorm hoping to find an answer. It doesn't. I win easily.
G3 I should have won this game. I had board position, I had Prowled in an Earwig squad and removed the 3 most-relevant cards from his deck. But I couldn't account for the Elspeth in his hand. I actually lost to tilt my own poor decision making. The board was clear, Earwig had prowled and removed Jitte and Batterskull from his deck. For some reason I held on to the TukTuk scrapper I had in hand, in case he had more equipment, even though I had another tuktuk and AG in my deck! Had I played TuckTuk I would have gotten two unblocked attacks in with him. Instead, I didn't deal that damage, my opponent played an Elspeth he had in hand, and he used that to stabilize and win at 5 life while I didn't draw anything relevant. Had i just played more aggressively I would have won and been able to draw into top 8.
3-2
X-2 wasn't gonna make it, so i dropped.
What I learned-
Goblins still wants to be an aggro deck, not a control deck. Play it accordingly.
The raw CA of Goblins is still enough to beat decks with Snapcaster.
Wort and Wizard are Win-More cards, and should not be played.
Playing at least 2 Tarfires is well worth it.
Earwig Squad could easily be a MD card.
Running 2 MD Scrappers is pretty awesome right now.
Sharpshooter is too slow and conditional right now. He's best against Empty the Warrens, but the dominance of U is pushing combo out of the meta.
What I would do differently-
Cut Wort for Earwig.
Cut Wizard for a Fetchland.
Cut Chalice and Mindbreak for Perish/Pyrobalst/Red Elemental Blast.
Cut Sharpshooter for something relevant, like Tarfire.
Thanks for the report jrw. Did you miss your war marshals against the goyf armies?
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