Yeah, this looks much better in my eyes ;).Wouldn't be easier for you answer that, in your oppinion, it should be -1 ichorid +1 Golgari Thug?
In addition to the stuff indefinite.soul had allready said (and sorry for repeting most of it)Can someone explain why everybody is cutting Tireless Tribe for Firestorm? Reading back several pages, the only explanation I have found is "trust me."
Firestorm gives you:
- an answer to annoying creatures, such as Scavenging Ooze, KotR, and basicly every small insect your opponent plays in the early turns. If you can kill their mana dorks you have at least delayed them for one turn and you havn't lost a thing in the outcome
- an uncounterable discardoutled (take in mind that this was actually way more important during te Misstep meta, yet its still good to have)
- sac outled for Ichorids / other stuff in resp. to Swords / Path / them killing their own dudes to remove Bridges
- a way to sometimes sneak in te last bit of damage (I've allready killed Ad Nauseam and Doomsday pilots with this card, as well as finishing off a 42 lands player with his Chasm lock and other stories that usually envolve around a scenario where they have low life count while I have the Firestorm)
Our music means nothing, except for what it means to
you.
@ igri_is_a_bk
Plus Firestorm is the best way to fizzle with an otherwise perfect hand and throw away games.
It also kills all your Bridge from Below.
And apart from Scavenging Ooze and post board Knoght of the Reliquary there aren't any creatures we'd ever have to fear. So Firestorming away the turn 1 Mother of Runes might net you some witty comments (I'm gonna burn your Mom etc) but actually it doesn't matter at all if you have a follow-up draw spell.
It's also very weak in playing around graveyard sweepers, because it's not a permanent discard outlet that could let you bin your next dredger once your graveyard gets blown out.
And of course it's not a body for Dread Return or Cabal Therapy.
I'm actually not against Firestorm in general, but I figured it would be helpful if someone asking a question also gets to hear the disadvantages.
I don't really see that much problem with his list.One thing to keep in mind is this so-called "meta". Your meta, compared to his, as well as everyone's will vary. Looking at his deck construction, and seeing the main decked firestorms and the side boarded Elesh, could maybe mean that he's either facing a lot of fast aggro, or that he needs uncounterable discard outlets.
For a long while, 11 dredgers was being run, until someone noted that 12 offers more in terms of consistency, and if possible, a 13th would really boost when it comes to chain dredging. I believe it may have been 4reak who mentioned that before, as I recall a small statistic chart of how a 13th could help boost percentages for chain dredging.
While the new card, Faithless Footing, maybe difficult to squeeze into LEDless, or if it's even needed. I am curious to see as to what people come up with. I'm just happy to get some new possible "toy" to play around with.Kind of like when Bloodghast came out and there's different builds being thrown around. I'll definitely grab myself a playset anyway, just to have access to them.
My build is pretty much the stock 15 land/Tireless Tribe build with a few minor changes. 3:4 split between coliseum and Citadel, in Citadel's Favor. Only 3 MDed Ichorid, and Iona as the singleton DR target.
Not going to say mine is superior, or someone else' is superior, as when it comes down to it, it's all a matter of preference. As someone in the past pages said, it's really just pure fashion. Just dislike seeing "meta" thrown around, as what everyone face is completely different.
EDIT: Deployment is right around the corner for me, wether it's another player sanctioned event or an official one, hoping I can play 1 last tournament. I might represent Dredge this time, unless my mood changes and play something else. But yes, 1 last game for me will be nice... since I'll be gone for half a year.
LEDless Dredge
Braids Stax
Armageddon Stax
Welder Stax
It could be useful to note that Firestorm actually helps against one of our worse scenarios since before MM, that got better during MM, and is still strong even without MM, which would be Blue decks using big creatures with cheap counters (You name it: Merfolks, Canadian, Bant, TA...)
Being uncounterable and killing their 1-drop is a tempo boost, and forcing them to counter a card that has done its job already is also a tempo boost.
The second best thing about Firestorm, imho, is that it helps against aggro on the draw. Zoo decks usually put us on a tight clock, and this is diminished by a Firestorm into Nacatl on the draw.
Izor stated it correctly when pointing out it's main disadvantages: You should be either highly prepared to fight hate, or don't even try, because it isn't as good as a perma discard in this role, and you should try to stress dredgers, so that you don't Fizzle. I find 13 dredgers (4 ggt, 4swi, 4gt, 1db) enough for this, alongside with the perma discard Putrid Imp.
If you fail to explain the reason behind your choice, technically, it's the wrong choice.
Zerk Thread -- Really, fun deck! ^^Originally Posted by Tacosnape
@the firestorm mystery: Everyone has mentioned some great reasons it is played, but here is the best reason: maverick decks.
All annoying creatures all over. Stoneforge mystic into jitte. Moms to block our big trolls. Second turn oozes and knights, oh my! They can't do much against a well timed firestorm, except keep mom untapped. It is the best card to have against maverick.
I play a 4x Tireless Tribe/4x Putrid Imp build and I'm not sure about Firestorm: having a permanent discard outlet is way better than having a one-shot spell, even though the effect may seem better because it kills creatures in the process. The fact is Tribe is IMHO better because it has a virtual protection from red, blocks Tarmogoyf/Batterskull and makes casting Dread Return easier. Yes, I'm one of those Neanderthalians who still play Dread Return, and I win much more by flashbacking it than by swarming with 2/2 tokens. That said, I think playing Firestorm was correct during the "Mental Misstep Era", but our deckbuilding decisions shouldn't be influenced by a ghost menace. I'm still keeping Tribe in my maindeck and circumventing permanent hate is not difficult. It's not bad against Surgical Extraction, either: they remove your Golgari Grave-Troll, you discard your Thug and continue dredging, whilst Firestorm would have needed you to discard two dredgers, leaving you totally cold to a Crypt/Relic.
I personally play Darkblast instead of Firestorm since I can switch it with Golgari Thug keeping my dredger count intact, kills creatures continuously and acts as a self-discard outlet. It's good against Noble Hierarch/Mother of Runes if you fear Maverick, but it can also kill Delver of Secrets/Snapcaster Mage, and it's better in the mirror. I always wanted to play Firestorm and ordered 'em, but they never arrived and during my abidingness I realizes the effect wasn't relevant, except against Merfolk.
I have some questions, too: do you think it's safe to keep Ray of Revelation in my sideboard? I have 2 but I succesfully cast one like three times in 26 months, and I wonder what could take their place. Elesh Norn? Purify the Grave? I think they're wasted slots...
0.05.14 [Digital Devil] <Digital Devil> Ach! Hans, run! It's the Tarmogoyf!
0.05.17 [Hans (GER)] <Hans (GER)> ...
0.05.20 [<System>] <System> Player Lost
I am getting back to playing LEDless atm.
Gonna take it to iserlohn(nice little 50-70man tourney) , running the following list ( changed only a bit from Amsterdam, but I like it a lot better now)
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Tarnished Citadel
4 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Darkblast
4 Golgari Grave-troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough
4 Firestorm
4 Putrid Imp
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
Sb: 2 Dread Return
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Sadistic Hypnotist
1 Elesh Norn, Great Cenobite
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Nature's Claim
1 Ray of Revelation
3 Coffin Purge
Not sure about the Numbers of Elesh/Purge bc of the Mirror.
Still no Dread Return. I was testing my Amsterdam list and tried DR, 4th Citadel and the Blast in the slot and while the Citadel helped the starting hands quite a bit, I found Darkblast to be more useful. I could cut the 4th Ichorid for a DR but I think Ichorid is better overall because of the Tempo decks.
Thoughts?
This man is a truthspeaker! You deserve a beer - if you see me in Ghent, you may present yourself to me as The Speaker of Truths and I will buy you a beer of choice
I think it looks very solid.
My personal preference will still say don't leave the house w/o Tribes and at least 1-2 DR main, but if you follow that philosophy I don't see anything you should change.
I also like the sideboard, the only thing is that I always want to have the 5th answer to Leyline if I can. But I see that there isn't much space with the whole DR package in the board as well (this is actually another minor reason I want some DR main). As of the rest, I currently don't run the Cenobite any more because I mostly prefer to board out DR and have more space for sideboard options against the decks where she matters, but I think one copy is fine. I can't really say all that much about the Purge, cause I haven't had the opportunity to play them on a tourney yet. But I think I'd also play 3.
I'm probably going to a pretty big Legacy tournament in January in Hanau, with presumably a huge load of players (Beta Lotus for 1st place anyone?). I'll fine tune my list until then and see where it takes me. What I'm testing at the moment is Ground Seal in the board against Extirpate, Extraction, Purify the Grave, Scavenging Ooze and Reanimator and Loam decks in general. CC2 is unfortunate but I've managed to win quite a few games with my opponent holding double Extraction plus Snapcaster in his hand. Has worked quite well so far, though I'm not sure if it's better than Cpffin Purge in those slots.
Anyway, would be cool if you could share your experiences after Iserlohn if you can. And Good Luck.
I'm gonna start referring to lists that run 13 dredgers as "Golgo-13"
"It is not to be thought that the life of darkness is sunk in misery and lost as if in sorrowing. There is no sorrowing. For sorrow is a thing swallowed up in death. And death and dying are the very life of the darkness."
Hi I recently started playing again and was curious about this kind of deck. Went to my old stash of magic cards and was able to keep some old good cards like LED,Gemstone mine and some dredge cards. Thanks to this thread, I was able to get a few pointers on piloting the deck.At first I was a bit confused on what kind of Dredge I would play, there is this bloodghast+u.paradise combo, Main board Firestorm,LED Dredge and Hybrid dredge.
I decided to play LED dredge(coz i have access to LED:)) for its turn 1 kill even though it has its inconsistency issue. The turn 1 land drop, breakthrough then Break LED in response to breakthrough always makes me feel excited.
Here in the Philippines, I would say combo would be the meta around here. Because of these I'm having problems what to put on my side board.
Anyway This is what run:
Creatures: 24
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Stinkweed Imp
4Golgari Thug
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4putrid imp
Spells: 24
4 Break through
4Cabal Therapy
2Careful Study
4Faithless looting
2Dread Return
4 Bridges from Below
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
Lands: 12
3City of Brass
4Gemstone mine
4Cephalid Coliseum
Sideboard:
3ancient grudge
4natures claim
1chain of vapor
3firestorm
1terestadon
1Elesh, grand cenobite
2coffin purge
Would really appreciate some pointers from you guys..
Thx
Zombieloan
I highly recommend swapping MD FKZ against Iona. Also, I think that Study is the better draw spell , so I would cut at least 1 Breakthrough for Study. With Iona Main, the Board looks alright. Maybe cut chain for third purge because of reanimator, although I understand it being against Reanimator and Leyline. I just think that 4 Solutions for Leyline are enough.
The other Option is of course to change the list as a whole but I Don't think thats what you want.
This man is a truthspeaker! You deserve a beer - if you see me in Ghent, you may present yourself to me as The Speaker of Truths and I will buy you a beer of choice
@Hokus
Sorry Sir, but I accidentally posted my wrong deck list. What I posted was if and when Faithless looting becomes legal. Anyway here is my correct list:
Creatures: 25
• 4 Golgari Grave-Troll
• 3Ichorid
• 4 Narcomoeba
• 4 Putrid Imp
• 4 Stinkweed Imp
• 4Golgari Thug
• 1 sphinx of the lost truth
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
Spells: 24
4 Break through
4Cabal Therapy
4Careful Study
2Deep Analysis
2Dread Return
4 Bridge from Below
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
Lands: 11
3 City of Brass
4 Gemstone mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
Sideboard:
3Chain of vapor
3 ancient grudge
2Coffin purge
3fire storm
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 terestadon/windfall primus
@Hokus, should I replace FKZ? and use oona instead? if so why?
@Hokus
Sorry Sir, but I accidentally posted my wrong deck list. What I posted was if and when Faithless looting becomes legal. Anyway here is my correct list:
Creatures: 25
• 4 Golgari Grave-Troll
• 3Ichorid
• 4 Narcomoeba
• 4 Putrid Imp
• 4 Stinkweed Imp
• 4Golgari Thug
• 1 sphinx of the lost truth
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
Spells: 24
4 Break through
4Cabal Therapy
4Careful Study
2Deep Analysis
2Dread Return
4 Bridge from Below
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
Lands: 11
3 City of Brass
4 Gemstone mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
Sideboard:
1Chain of vapor
4Nautres claim
3 ancient grudge
2Coffin purge
3fire storm
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 terestadon/windfall primus
@Hokus, should I replace FKZ? and use oona instead? if so why?
FKZ is the definition of "win more". Sure, there will be a few games you don't win without FKZ but those are very VERY rare. Also, FKZ doesnt win on the spot automatically. People tend to think that because they have a boatload of zombies. But this also means FKZ works only with bridges. Iona works without and you are likely to win on the next turn anyway.Of course it is possible to run both, but then I would rather play Sun Titan than FKZ again...well it is still a bit of a matter of taste. If your meta is really really comboheavy I would probably play FKZ and Iona, or Hypnotist and Iona.
As a side note, maybe play purify the grave over coffin purge, to play around opposing Ionas naming black.
Edit: Also, Parcher is the god of LED dredge in this forum. I would believe any of his choices while playing this deck. Maybe look up some of his lists( it's Damon Whitby I belive, pls correct me if I am wrong.
Edit2: Also, don't Sir me pls, I am most likely not older than you and it makes me feel soooo old :(
This man is a truthspeaker! You deserve a beer - if you see me in Ghent, you may present yourself to me as The Speaker of Truths and I will buy you a beer of choice
@Hokus thanks for the tip:) Actually, I would really like to hear from Parcher as well. Want to know and see his updated MD and SB List. Co-dredge players here in the Philippines would always discourage me not to run LED for its inconsistency issue. Anyway I would also try what u suggested Iona+FKZ main.
Thx
Zombieloan:)
@zombieloan: Don't let haters convince you LED is worse than LEDless. Different decks with different strengths and weaknesses.
LED is better versus Maverick which is hot at the moment.
Only reason I'm not giving any pointers right now is because of Faithless Looting. My stock list will certainly change.
I dont think the 13th dredger is necessary. Mainly because if I have a hand with darkblast as my only dredger, I'll still mull that. If my only dredger is thug, I'd keep. I used to be a dr-less player as well. However, you really need dread return to "get there". I'm currently playing 2 md but 1 is fine as well since it's just another good weapon. Im playing 3 tribes, 4 firestorm in the board. Love the firestorms but post board tribes are more solid against hate. Basically the safest place for a dredger is in ur hand. Against crypts and the sorts, tribes/imps are amazing. If you get cleaned out once, you can pitch that dredger in your hand anytime to rebuild.
I think tribes still > firestorm and reckless looting md.
@joemauer thanks bro, yeah I'm ignoring them regarding their thinking of LED dredge. I'm also waiting for FL to be legalized. Sweet card for LED Dredge
Thx
Zombieloan
Ivanpei, long time no see! ^^
I have something to say about this, 13 dredgers or 12 is a relative topic. First of all, with 13 dredgers (1DB), I don't mull DB hands, because 3 is usually (not 100%, but none is) enough to get another dredger which will dredge for more. Also, DB is recurring most of the time.
Second thing is, with 15 lands and 12 dredgers, your chance of opening a hand with Dredger+Discard+Draw+Land is lower than with 14 lands and 13 dredgers. This is actually the only configuration that is better than the regular 15lands/12dredgers/8draw/8discard if you don't want to remove the discard guys or DRs (or, 43 slots for the 'combo').
And last, I follow the crowd that is using Firestorm maindeck. In this case, not stalling when not having a discard is more important. Having that extra dredger helps a lot in that, even if you have to dredge for 3 sometimes.
I currently use 2 DRs as well, but mosty because I don't have room in sideboard. I believe 1DR MD is enough. And no DR targets.
And here a question: Do you think Tribe is more important than Ancient Grudge to fight artifact hate? If you had 4 slots in side only, which would you use?
And an addendum: I think my test with Faithless Looting will be in the place of Breakthrough. I know how abusive BT is, but I wanna test the consistancy vs. speed to reach a conclusion
If you fail to explain the reason behind your choice, technically, it's the wrong choice.
Zerk Thread -- Really, fun deck! ^^
I agree with everything you said about DR main and Firestorm's demand for more Dredgers.
As of your question, I think Ancient Grudge is the way to go. Not having Tribes main is unfortunate for fighting hate, but I think you shouldn't try to make up for your decision of Firestorm > Tribe by wasting sideboard slots for Tribes. If you want the Firestorms over Tribe, you should stick with that and face the consequences (negative and positive). I think it's a bit like the LED lists putting Tribes and lands in the side for post board games. Mostly just a waste of sideboard space. If you want LED, face the absence of Tribes and more lands. Know what I mean? ^^
Also, you said that your chance for the perfect hand are better with one less land and an additional dredger. While this is true, you should also ask yourself if your mathematical chance for the perfect hand is more important than the chance to get playable hands. Because then, lands are actually more important than dredgers for any list that doesn't always draw and DDD.
I'd never keep a 7 hand with Gravetroll but without Lands if i don't know for sure that I'm up against Counterbalance or something like that. However, if I have a few lands and Studies or Breakthroughs without dredgers, I easily keep. This gets even more important after mulligans. What do you do with 3 Dredgers, a PImp and a Narcomoeba after a mull to 5. three lands instead of the dredgers make that an easy keep.
This is just my line of thought, which always keeps me at 15 lands and mostly only 11-12 dredgers. Still the whole thing is matter of personal preference. And also, I have Tribes main. Firestorm, as we said, needs more dredgers to run smoothly.
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