Originally Posted by klaus
That's pretty much what Ochoa said in his deck tech. That's not to mention an out against a mirror.
The way I see it, Channel Fireball worked extensively to make sure they were at least in top 8 this year in Worlds. They worked as a team (literally scooping to one another if it allowed the other person to advance) to find the best decks in each format and exploit the meta. They had a variety of decks to choose from for the Legacy/Team portion of Worlds. Of all the decks, they ended up with a simple U/W Stoneblade with some very interesting ways to handle RUG Tempo (which I can assume was the deck they were confidently prepared for at Worlds). It seems if it wasn't for the Dredge match up, David would've had a perfect record.
It doesn't mean that u/w was the best deck for Legacy, but for Channel Fireball, they felt it was the best balanced deck coming into Worlds with a near perfect pilot.
Last edited by Polish Tamales; 11-25-2011 at 06:08 PM.
That implies that you bring in your Disenchants against Maverick, which seems kind of narrow. I know, it takes care of Chokes (unless you are tapped out on your white sources already that turn), and it's also good against Sylvan Library and Equipments. Overall, not that bad, but still a bit narrow. I prefer to bring in Engineered Explosives (you need to splash red for that to work against Choke though), because it's also good against their creatures, and Spell Pierce, which is also golden against Chokes, Equipments and also very important against early GSZ. I don't think Choke is that important anymore once they could resolve it through a Spell Pierce. At that point in time, you should have 4-5 mana yourself already and can maybe play through it, or have another solution to the problem.
For straight U/W, it looks like there is no better solution though. Oh and in the mirror btw, I prefer Shackles over Disenchant. You effectively have to go for the Jace win if they resolve a Shackles against you.
Regarding Purify the Grave, I also think Surgical Extraction is miles better. The only matchup where I see myself wanting a Purify the Grave might be Reanimator. I'm not that afraid of them though, because even if they stop my GY-hate, there is still Countermagic, Swords, Jaces and maybe Karakas to dodge for them. Dredge is way tougher as we know, and Surgical Extration coupled with Snapcaster Mage is the best weapon we have for that matchup. Once we get rid of their Bridges, it becomes hard for them to race a Germ token.
The fact that he lost to dredge proves that the decks needs more powerful cards against graveyards than purify the grave, nothing to add here.
Disenchant is versatile, but very weak. First of all, I sideboard out 2 stoneforge and the sword in the mirror, so the disenchants from my opponents become dead (it's easy to play around it with batterskull), and as far as I know many good players do the same. And second, the key card that wins the mirror match is jace, so you should build your gameplan around this and play cards that may help you in resolving yours and avoiding your opponent resolving his. Red elemental blast is the best option therefore, spell pierce is ok if you're straight UW and disenchant does nothing.
It is true that the card is useful to fight choke, but first of all you don't know if your opponent is playing them. Second, he's not playing blue and he will be playing two or at the most 3 copies, so it's easy that he doesn't draw the card for the entire game and you end up with a dead card in hand, and third, if he draws it you can either counter it, or send it to the bottom with clique, or win with it on the table. You maybe end up losing one game from ten because of your opponent was running choke in his sideboard and you didn't have the answer for it. That's not enough for me, and every time I try disenchant in my sb I feel I'm wasting two precious slots.
I agree, Purify the Grave seems weak in most GY matchups. Surgical Extraction is miles ahead and, if you can support it, Extirpate is miles ahead of that.
Disenchant seems all around weak. You might board it in against Green decks to stop Choke. You might board it in against the mirror to stop equipment. Why not board Oblivion Ring instead? It hits Choke, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Elspeth, Knight-Errant, equipment, Bitterblossom, and creatures. Against Green decks that are likely to board in Choke, you are always looking for extra removal. If they don't draw the Choke and draw gas instead, that Disenchant feels really dumb. At least O-Ring will get there. Same in the mirror. What if they don't draw their SFM and are on the Jace plan? Nice Disenchant, bro.
Not to kick a dead horse, but back to the Sword argument momentarily. The thing that draws me to Sword of Feast and Famine is the untap. Pro-Black is nice sometimes and Pro-Green is obviously good. If it wasn't for Taigo, things might be different, but SoFF allows us to swing and then still have open mana to be very interactive on their turn. Swords to Plowshare, Path to Exile (from the board), Taigo, Vendilion Clique, Spell Snare, Spell Pierce, the ability to SFM in more equipment.... we like mana. SoFF let's us have mana for things like dropping Jace and suiting up dudes on our turn and then gives us mana for interacting on their turn. Sword of Body and Mind is better in the corner cases where you are staring at a short clock of 3-4 Green dudes. In that situation, SoBM will shine for the reasons already stated.
However, I'd argue that with Taigo and access to 8 1-mana removal spells postboard that something is very wrong if we let ourselves get into that situation. More likely, we control the board to some extent and our suited guy swings in. Against GWx decks, what that means is that we either win outright or they find a Qasali Pridemage/Green Sun's Zenith/Krosan Grip for our equipment. In the second scenario, we either have a few wolves that are reduced to chump blockers or we have a board that is accelerated due to 2-3 turns of having double the mana. In that case, I'd rather have the advanced board-state.
After more testing, I found that I really prefer the second Sword MD and would strongly recommend running with SoFI if you expect to see much RUG. SoFI is great not only against Fish, Goblins, and RUG, but any weenie strategy really, including the mirror and BW.
Oblivion Ring might be more versatile but Disenchant is much easier to cast. Choke can catch you with your pants down when you resolve Jace in your turn. The same holds true for Disenchant but in those kinds of situations 2 mana is much easier to get than 3. Also, as a control deck, you can keep mana open so that you can answer Choke before you untap. And in the mirror, if your opponent puts an equipment down with Mystic, you can destroy it immediately or in response to equipping. Keeping mana open is very important because you might want to counter or Tiago something. Speaking of Tiago, you can flashback a Disenchant. Also, in the mirror, you can destroy assembly workers (factory) with it (which in a SoFF-build is even more likely).
I understand that Oblivion Ring has a much wider range but you board Disenchants when faced with problem artifacts or enchantments. This is something the main deck can't deal with. Planeswalkers and creatures can be taken care off already. So if you have a Disenchant in hand but there are no targets, that's fine because you're boarding them for artifacts or enchantments that cause you trouble. As long as it's not there yet you're good, and if it ever gets there you can destroy it immediately. Yes, Disenchant won't help you against a horde of creatures but as you pointed out, if you just die to a horde post board you've done something horribly wrong. Between Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exile, Snapcaster and Wrath of God you're probably busy plowing and wrathing to be able to pay three mana for an Oblivion Ring.
I'll admit Elspeth is a real nuisance. Depending on your list she's hard/impossible to legend slay, she beats Jace and it's hard to deplete her loyalty with the stream of soldiers she creates. But Elspeth aside, this deck already has an excellent sideboard against creatures, so the only permanents we really need an answer to from the board are artifacts and enchantments and although Disenchant isn't a very good card (white Nature's Claim anyone?) it does it's job well.
O-Ring sounds good in theory, but don't forget that certain cards exist that can handle an O-Ring (namely Quasali Pridemage). It's no Vindicate after all. I still think that overall, O-Ring would be better than Disenchant, although I think neither is neccessary in a board.
Chris VM is a huge fan of spellstutters + vaults md. Am I the only one who doesn't like them? I play 2 paths and factories instead. I feel that more removal + 3/3 blockers > slow, narrow, conditional flyers.
Also I like elspeth in the board, but I play 4 Jace md. Chances of hitting super friends is pretty slim and overkill. I just like having more of the better walker. Also pitching to force/ brainstorming away the extra copy is fine as well.
I never liked them, too. I also play factories and two additional removal spells in the form of Lightning Bolt, since I have the red splash for REB in the board already.
Regarding Elspeth, I don't think she's maindeck material, but I like her in the board. However, recently, I swapped her out for a Vedalken Shackles (which I don't have main). I think Shackles does more against the decks I really want it. I would side both in against Maverick and the mirror and in matches where I board out the SFMs to get more threat density, but Shackles does more for me in most of the matches where I really need it. Elspeth might be better in the mirror, but REB does the job pretty well.
I am fairly new to these boards; but I have been working on my version of Blade Control for a little while now.
What I would like to do is offer up my list and ask for comments, criticisms, suggestions from you guys. Feel free to offer anything as I am open to ideas and we can all learn from each other.
Maindeck
1 x Batterskull
1 x Sword of Feast and Famine
1 x Sword of Fire and Ice
1 x Crucible of Worlds
4 x Brainstorm
2 x Counterspell
4 x Force of Will
1 x Repeal
3 x Spell Snare
4 x Swords to Plowshares
2 x Spellstutter Sprite
2 x Vendilion Clique
3 x Snapcaster Mage
4 x Stoneforge Mystic
3 x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Land
3 x Island
2 x Plains
2 x Misty Rainforest
2 x Scalding Tarn
4 x Flooded Strand
4 x Tundra
2 x Mutavault
2 x Wasteland
1 x Karakas
1 x Riptide Laboratory
Sideboard
3 x Surgical Extraction
1 x Sword of Body and Mind
1 x Flusterstorm
2 x Meddling Mage
2 x Disenchant
2 x Path to Exile
2 x Peacekeeper
2 x Wrath of God
Now did read a lot about other cards such as Vedalken Shackles etc; but so far I like the Super-Friend style for this deck to start with. Anyway feel free to give me your thoughts.
I think you really need the 4th Snap and the 4th Spell Snare, those cards are extremely important in most matchups. Cards like Repeal and Crucible IMO are cute MD but not compulsory. Also, I usually don't run the 2nd plains, I prefer the 4th Island. I can see that you play double Elspeths, forcing you to be able to make double white. This is one of the reasons why I don't like running Elspeth MD, getting to double white is not that easy against RUG tempo etc.
Cheers.
I've gone back and forth with this before especially with Ochoa playing the faerie version at worlds. I played the faerie version back when MM was legal and I never liked it. The SS were always in my hand and didn't really counter anything and was a slow clock without a sword or just a chump blocker. I always wanted to see more cliques when I played the faerie version so I went back to 3 cliques and 0 SS version and haven't looked back. I always liked factories more than vaults in U/W versions but I'm currently running the red splash and don't run either.
I don't currently run Elspeth in the board but have in the past and liked it but right now I prefer extra removal and other SB options currently and I also play 4 Jace MD as I always want to see him.
Yeap, I agree with most of your points. On another note, is 6 md removal overkill? I was looking for another threat to replace the 2nd path and remembered phantasmal image. In theory he looks good, copying tarmos, snaps and kotrs/sfms.
Has anyone tested image heavily and liked him? I was thinking I running the 3rd clique but 4 snaps + 3 cliques = 7 three drops, which is pretty heavy for me.
Phantasmal Image is a bomb when you copy a Dark Confidant, or Goyf; but sucks if there is nothing to copy (dead in hand).
And yes I tested him, in more aggro decks he is smoking good stuff and my Merfolk run 2x P-image for just that reason.
I haven't really tested image but I know a lot of scg grinders play/played 2 in their SB for Emrakul, Progenitus, thrun, and mirror matches (getting more SFM's is nice etc) and liked them.
Tested image some today instead of the 6th md removal spell. It was ok, legend ruling cliques/mangaras/thruns were some of the more useful applications. I do have to admit I would still have preferred the 2nd path. I almost always want to have a removal spell in the yard to snapcast. I'm going back to the 2nd path. Also I like a singleton crucible out of the board. But putting another wasteland in the board seems like a waste. The only mu I would like to see it is against rug, where an extra land is always useful.
I'm playing a full playset of pierces in the board. It seems like the deck has a very iffy combo matchup. I prefer a full set of pierces due to flexibility (ie against LED dredge, walkers, countertop, enchantress) but is the extra power of flusterstorm worth running a 2/2 split? Flusterstorm seems like it would be very strong in stopping reanimator in its tracks since they can't force/daze back.
Hi there. I have a difficulty fighting against bant aggro. Is this supposed to be a bad matchup for u/w blade? My decklist is as follows
4 snapcaster
3 vendilion clique
4 stoneforge
4 stp
4 brainstorm
4 fow
3 counterspell
3 spell snare
2 ponder
3 jace the mind sculptor
1 batterskull
1 sword of body and mind
4 flooded strand
3 scalding tarn
1 arid mesa
3 wasteland
2 plains
1 mountain
1 riptide laboratory
2 tundra
2 volcanic island
5 island
SB
3 REB
3 WOG
3 spell pierce
3 relic of progenitus
2 disenchant
1 manriki gusari
I just got this deck last month and been playin with it on 3 local tournaments
my meta is filled with aggro decks （gobbos， merfolk， gw maverick， bant， and zoo） with 1 or 2 combo decks showing up （emrakul and ant）
my questions are：
I know my SB is not optimal， I am thinking of changing 3 relics with 3 surgical。 is this a good choice？？
What cards need to be sided out for aggro MU， especially GW maverick and BANT？？？
is REB worth bringing in during bant MU？ FYI its the NO bant
Thanks in advance
I think a 2/1 Split of Surgical-Tormod's is good. I play a 2/2. Splitting your hate is good because they might bring in Null Rods/Ancient Grudge G3 if they spot crypt and you end up drawing Surgical instead. Or if you use Surgical G2, they won't bring in bounce for Crypt and get surprised by it G3. I always prefer a split.
Against GW Maverick, I board out the Stoneblade package. I board in Wraths and removal. By playing no SFM, you are basically semi-blanking their removal. STPing a snapcaster is pretty weak. I don't play Manriki in the board or disenchants. I prefer Oblivion Ring and Elspeth. Oblivion ring IMO is more flexible because it can deal with Sylvan Library /Choke / Equipment or even KOTR. I don't run disenchants but Ideally you'd want them in this MU because they have pridemage, but Oring is better in the Stoneblade mirror because you can kill Jace with Oring. You also need some paths either in the board or MD. I md 2 paths (you can just swap your ponders for paths), so I always have plenty of removal in that MU. Sometimes it boils down to you having the answer for Mother of Runes, or you die an ugly death.
Elspeth is a nice bomb to complement your Jaces when you drop SFM post board, need to win somehow. If they walk into Wrath, thats great. If they don't, it gives you time to set up shop with Jace/Elspeth. That's the plan more or less. Against Bant, yes I will board in REBs/Spell pierces. But you play way too many anti blue cards. You need 4 slots max. I don't splash Red so I play 4 Spell Pierce. If I splashed red, I would just play 4 REBs. You can cut the additional pierces for Paths.
It it's NO bant, I would board out the SFMs + Equipment for the Wrath + Elspeth Package. SFM is too slow when you are facing down a progenitus. Though REB does not counter NO, you need it to Protect your FOW, counter their Cliques, or to force through your own Cliques. Cheers.
Thank you sir ivanpei， thats quite some enlightening comment you got there。 I
just knew that SFM can be boarded out sometime。
I always thought that he shouldn't be boarded out at all。 If I board him out， does the equipment goes too？？
What do you think about the 2 MD ponder？？？ I like it so far， but does 2 vedalken shackles goes better knowing my meta is filled with aggro？？
I think Shackles is ok, but you want to cut clique for shackles because you will be too heavy @ the 3 drop ie Snaps + Clique. Watching your curve is quite important. Ponder is ok if you don't want to run too many lands (I play 24 without ponders or 23 with 1 Ponder).
And yes, when you board out SFM, Equipment gets boarded out too. Also if you plan to play shackles, this build is interesting:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=42534
Just did well at the SCG open. Mostly basic lands with MD Back to Basics. Interesting tech? Plenty of basics makes Shackles better. Shackles does not combo with Wastes/Factories/Vaults/Riptide. I think shackles is better in this kind of basics heavy build.
Did more testing today, using Delver of Secrets, instead of Sprites... I did like them as the deck does have enough cards to support them well. Anyway, let me know what you think of this list (oh and Mishra's took the place of Mutavaults, as there was so much less need of Fairies).
Maindeck
1 x Batterskull
1 x Sword of Fire and Ice
1 x Crucible of Worlds
4 x Brainstorm
2 x Counterspell
4 x Force of Will
1 x Repeal
3 x Spell Snare
4 x Swords to Plowshares
3 x Delver of Secrets
2 x Vendilion Clique
4 x Snapcaster Mage
4 x Stoneforge Mystic
3 x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Land
3 x Island
2 x Plains
2 x Misty Rainforest
2 x Scalding Tarn
4 x Flooded Strand
4 x Tundra
2 x Mishra's Factory
2 x Wasteland
1 x Karakas
1 x Riptide Laboratory
Sideboard
1 x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 x Surgical Extraction
1 x Umezawa's Jitte
2 x Meddling Mage
2 x Disenchant
2 x Path to Exile
2 x Peacekeeper
2 x Wrath of God
I know that the changes seam subtle; but the deck did play a little smother as the Delver is worth playing a lot more than the Sprite was. It still has enough control for my liking, but I am always open to ideas. Thanks so far guys, your comments and discussion all help.
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