Legacy White Weenie

[MUCGuy]

I'd like to discuss White Weenie in Legacy.

Assume the meta is equal parts of each of the Decks to Beat.

What are the best cards to play in such a meta and what are the trade offs?

The best known white cards may not actually be the best choices to achieve the highest average win rate for the given meta bet I'm sure they're a good starting point.

One of the biggest advantages is the strong game versus mana denial strategies. Spells are cheap and the manabase is solid. I think if it is possible, there should be cards to take control in nearly any given matchup, but is it possible to combine enough of those key cards into a single coherent deck that is solid against them all?

Sample list:
Updated with power cards in matchups in brackets.

4 Icatian Javelineers -> removed (untested)
4 Mother of Runes (extremely versatile card)
4 Student of Warfare [Merfolk]
4 Stoneforge Mystic [Merfolk]
4 Serra Avenger
4 Samurai of the Pale Curtain -> Replaced w/ Grand Abolisher [Merfolk, Maverick]
1 Eight-and-a-Half-Tails (powerful late game)

? Proclamation of Rebirth [control]

4 Swords to Plowshares [Merfolk]

3 Honor of the Pure -> Wrath of God [Merfolk, Maverick]

2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

4 Aether Vial

1 Sword of Feast and Famine (interacts well with FoD, and SoW)
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull [Merfolk]

15 Plains
1 Flagstone of Trokair
3 Wasteland [Maverick]

Samurai of the Pale Curtain seems like it could do quite well when protected by a mother of runes. Need testing, but fights: Tamrogoyf, Knight of the Reliquary, Crucible of Worlds/Life from the Loam, Scavenging Ooze, and what else?

Icatian Javelineers, gets thrown in sense there has been some talk over in the Vial Goblins thread that Mogg Fanatic is good in the current meta.

Weathered Wayfarer does not fit well with Student of Warfare, Figure of Destiny, and the equipment plan.

Grand Abolisher is pretty good. Counter stopping reactions to our swords, and attaching is quite good. Gives great information sense opponent can't hide things untill EOT. Has many other benefits as well.

Wrath of God combo's amazing with equips/batterskull. And if Grand Abolisher is out on the field you can play it at will, netting potentially massive card advantage against tribal, as well as green beat down decks that use accelerators.

Proclamation of Rebirth White Weenie staying power/card advantage. The forecast can't be countered so it's quite good against blue based strategies! I havn't quite tested it yet but i'd imagine at least one spot is worth it. Putting Mom or Student into play seems good. Or recurring, Nova Cleric or Salvage Scout seems like it has potential after game 1.

Lately i've been reducing creature count.
What else does white weenie bring to the table in Legacy?

[optml]

I don't know if you've ommitted them for a reason, but I always think that the 2-power 1drops are handy. (the Isamaru's and Savannah lions of the World).

I would be tempted with adding some promise of bunrei (in my opinion a very underplayed card) in the sideboard to deal with mass destruction.

Perhaps one Emeria, the Sky ruin, although I am aware that it could be wastelanded.

[jhhdk]

As long as you run an equipment package, I think Kor Duelist deserves considderation. I'd also considder adding Meekstone and Ensnaring Bridge (because of onesidedness) and removing SoLaS because of dissynergy.

[mpe]

I think Soltari Priest is still strong in the point he has protection RED against Lightning Bolt and Punishing Fire. The synergy with some equipment is great too.

Here is my list.

4 x 《Mother of Runes》
4 x 《Serra Avenger》
4 x 《Soltari Priest》
4 x 《Stoneforge Mystic》

2 x 《Elspeth, Knight-Errant》

3 x 《Enlightened Tutor》
4 x 《Swords to Plowshares》

2 x 《Island Sanctuary》

4 x 《AEther Vial》
3 x 《Mask of Memory》
1 x 《Umezawa’s Jitte》
1 x 《Sword of Fire and Ice》
1 x 《Batterskull》
1 x 《Crucible of Worlds》

18 x 《Plains》
4 x 《Wasteland》

We can rock with Island Sanctuary which works like 2 CMC Moat so it's great against beat down decks + we can draw the card with Mask of Memory or SoFaI.

I sometimes take in Painter combo there. If I rarely see SnT combo deck or Merfolk, I'll use this deck again. Anyways, I believe Mono-White Weenie deck is strong in Legacy.

[luckme10]

In his last article, Caleb Durward made a suggestion for white weenie.
http://www.channelfireball.com/artic...n-on-a-budget/
Here's the list:

4 Mishra's Factory
2 Blinkmoth Nexus
1 Horizon Canopy
15 Plains
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Serra Avenger
4 Mirran Crusader
4 Aven Mindcensor
2 Grand Abolisher
3 Oblivion Ring
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Batterskull
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

[boneclub24]

Back when I was trying this, I ran AEther Vial and Cataclysm. Oblivion Ring and extra flagstones would also be a must.

[Wizened Cenn]

This is what I would play today:

4 Wasteland
1 Rishadan Port
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Karakas
2 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
7 Plains
4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Weathered Wayfarer
3 Mother of Runes
2-4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
4 Squadron Hawk <- Just give it a try, it really is awesome
~2-4 Other removal (Path to Exile/Oblivion Ring)
~7-11 Other creatures (Grand Abolisher, Jotun Grunt, Serra Avenger, Leonin Relic-Warder, Samurai of the Pale Curtain)

Nice idea on Samurai of the Pale Curtain, I hadn't seen that before, but it looks like it could be pretty good.


Things I wouldn't play:

Figure of Destiny - Only really good against Merfolk, which should be a good match up anyway, will just eat removal in response to the pump. There are better one drops already.

Honor of the Pure - Really bad lord/not a body. I would so much rather have another creature, which would likely give you the same amount of power on the board. It could be better in different versions of the deck, but I wouldn't run it.

Sword of X and Y - There is a huge difference between five and four mana (Umezawa's Jitte), I found that I almost always played and equipped on the same turn, and so Jitte is much faster. Jitte closes games against creature based decks, and often times continues to function even if the equipped creature dies. I have never played with Sword of Feast and Famine, however, so this may deserve a spot. But Fire/Ice and Light/Shadow were weak, and Body/Mind and War/Peace are just bad.

Elite Vanguard/Savannah Lions/Isamaru, Hound of Konda - Again, there are better 1 drops, 2/2's or 2/1's don't impress anyone in Legacy. Its just miserable when staring down those 3/2's with flying or Zoo's 2/3's. White Weenie isn't the fastest deck, so you might as well run one-drops that have value later (Mom/Wayfarer/Figure)

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Speaking of facing down 2/3s, Student of Warfare seems pretty good. If you don't want to run it in a one drop slot, cut a two drop and reduce your exposure to Spell Snare while giving you a dude that's pretty amazing with Jitte.

Considering you're running Wayfarer and Hawks, have you thought about Empyrial Plate as an equipment at all? If you don't find yourself emptying your hand it might be well worth a test run.

[ScatmanX]

-I don't get the appeal for Batterskull in a deck like this. You have tons of guys. Something cheap that made them bigger seems better than a card that takes forever to come into the battlefield.

-Empyrial Plate seems nice only if you run Hawks, otherwise seems lousy.

[NeoTech]

Speaking of facing down 2/3s, Student of Warfare seems pretty good. If you don't want to run it in a one drop slot, cut a two drop and reduce your exposure to Spell Snare while giving you a dude that's pretty amazing with Jitte.

Student of Warfare is amazing, possibly the best turn 1 play WW can get, so on turn 2 you can take him to level 2 and now should take on any opposing creatures with no problem... Until he take a Bolt to the face

Right now my WW variant is running pretty smoothly. I main deck additional removal, 3 Path to Exile and 4 Swords to Plowshares. It's almost a must in the meta. I also run with lots of sac lands, 8 Sac Lands, 8 Plains, and 4 Wasteland. I haven't used Weathered Wayfarer yet, and don't really see a reason to. I would rather be playing threats then pulling lands from my deck with his ability. Plus I don't run any land toolbox, again not seeing a reason too.

I also have some ancient tech that yall should check out. I used to run this card all the time "back in the day" Eye for an Eye. And now I run one in my main deck just because its fun if the game goes long, and can potentially make a game go to draw instead of a loss.

[TsumiBand]

-I don't get the appeal for Batterskull in a deck like this. You have tons of guys. Something cheap that made them bigger seems better than a card that takes forever to come into the battlefield.

-Empyrial Plate seems nice only if you run Hawks, otherwise seems lousy.

Empyrial Plate might kind of combo with Squadron Hawk, but who cares? SoFI is a way better effect than just +x/+x, why worry about assembling a bad Goyf?

Also I agree with the Batterskull sentiment, that's so much more a control card than anything else.

Honestly I don't think I would play this approach to the deck without something like Cataclysm in the main. There's a billion ways to break that card so that it works better for you than your opponent.

Consider a rough framework like this:

4 Mother of Runes
4 Knight of the White Orchid
4 Razor Golem
4 Stoneforge Mystic

2 - 4 Good Equipment cards
4 Cataclysm
2 - 4 Oblivion Ring(?)

2 - 3 Flagstones of Trokair
2 - 4 Ancient Tomb

You have several different ways to make Cataclysm play out well for yourself. Sacrificing Flagstones to net a land, choosing Razor Golem as either creature or artifact, etc.

In addition this strategy would sort of work well with the Squadron Hawk thing, since you can guarantee a bunch of flyers after the Cat.

You could also maindeck Silence - I mean that's a romantic and terrible idea, but deep down inside I want to be the asshole who goes "CATACLYSM GO, UPKEEP SILENCE YOU, WHAT WHAT BITCH WHAT" and thinks it's a good play. Sigh.

[MUCGuy]

Couple good tech finds so far, with Eye for an Eye, and Island Sanctuary.

I'm not sure if Soltari priest is powerful enough to make the cut. What deck does he realy shine against?

Interesting idea with the Sensei's Top.

I want to theory craft a bit with Grand Abolisher on the brain sense I haven't played with it yet.

-It obviously would stop the opponent from countering spells.
-It would also stop our equipment attachment from fizzling vs creature removal.
-Stops Aether Vial from providing combat tricks.
-Oh wow it also stops Sensei Diving Top + Counterbalance shenanigans which is quite huge.
-Defensive Mother of Runes is shut down as well which is huge in the Maverick match up.

Anything important i've missed here? Seems like he might actually be good enough, but it is a hard to call to make sense he is such a weak fighter, in this combat oriented meta.

[mpe]

I'm not sure if Soltari priest is powerful enough to make the cut. What deck does he realy shine against?

First of all, thanks for your checking my previous post.
Well,I belive he is strong in the point

1) Shadow
He won't be blocked by other creatures because we rarely see shadow creatures in Legacy. And shadow really helps to get the trigger of Sowrd of X and Y easier than Flying.

2) Protection RED
He can protect himself without mommy from Lightning Bolt or Punishing fire or Grim Lavamancer. I think weenie deck is week against Punishing Fire combo or Grim Lavamancer so he'll improve the matchup against suck decks.

At least, if I/we will take Island Sanctuary in the deck, he'll shine with it.
By the way, I'll improve the mana base which I posted before like below,

Before:
18 x 《Plains》
4 x 《Wasteland》

After:
15 x 《Plains》
3 x 《Horizon Canopy》 *
4 x 《Wasteland》

*I forgot this card! Synagy with Island Sanctuary and Crucible of Worlds.

[MUCGuy]

My main concern with Island Sanctuary is that is doesn't actually do that much in the current meta.

Maverick has a few fliers and also has enchantment destruction. Maverick also has direct damage.

Merfolk has fliers and an islandwalk lord, as well as counters.

Tempo is playing Delver of Secrets, direct damage, and counter spells.

It seems like a bad idea to base a deck so much around one card that isn't a game winner. Your WW deck seems very much based around Island Sanctuary.

Currently I have two lists, one beats Maverick, the other beats Merfolk, but I haven't been able to beat both yet. And I haven't been able to play the other matches.

[mpe]

My main concern with Island Sanctuary is that is doesn't actually do that much in the current meta.

Maverick has a few fliers and also has enchantment destruction. Maverick also has direct damage.

Merfolk has fliers and an islandwalk lord, as well as counters.

Tempo is playing Delver of Secrets, direct damage, and counter spells.

It seems like a bad idea to base a deck so much around one card that isn't a game winner. Your WW deck seems very much based around Island Sanctuary.

Currently I have two lists, one beats Maverick, the other beats Merfolk, but I haven't been able to beat both yet. And I haven't been able to play the other matches.

As I wrote this in my first post, I'll not use my quoted deck if SnT combo or Merfolk is flooded in the meta. But,

> Maverick has a few fliers and also has enchantment destruction
I can focus on playing Swords to Plowshares to a few fliers. Qasali Pridemage destroys my enchantment but if my mighty equipments is still there, I'll not be pessimistic about it though it's not fair to say that because it would be case by case.

> Merfolk

I recognize Merfolk is tier 2~3 deck now or at least in my meta. The reason why they are in such position is that they are weak against SFM package, I think. If I persist in Island Sanctuary, obiously it's not smart but my quoted deck will be able to fight against them because I have SFM package still.

> It seems like a bad idea to base a deck so much around one card

I agree with this but I don't think my quoted deck is build around Island Sanctuary.
I want to say I'm focusing on making synergy with each cards and I can win without Island Sanctuary. For example,

2) SFM + Batterskull
3) Serra Avenger + Equipment
4) Soltari Priest + Equipment
5) Crucible of Worlds + Wasteland

I need Equipments to fight well but this is the White Weenie deck or White "Human" Weenie deck should do so to survive in Legacy.

[MUCGuy]

Defenitly curious to the numbers it puts up against the decks to beat it's pretty unique as in it is tangetal to my current thinking. It's hard to discount Merfolk sense it is still considered a DTB, but meh.

From testing so far, Student of Warfare + Swords to Plowshares, are extremely effective in the Merfolk match up, as there cheapness allows to dodge soft counters. And they're quite effective with ability to fight well and snipe lords respectively. I haven't tested Figure of Destiny but i'd imagine it would do well do to the same reasons as SoW but a little less effective.

Sword of Light and Shadow
Really strong againt Batterskull (black germ) decks. And fights Knights of the Rel' and Swords to Plowshares.

updated OP.

[Qweerios]

Try Puresteel Paladin with living weapons.

[paeng4983]

Interesting! I was chatting with boneclub24 awhile ago with this deck as one of our topic. I was asking him if W.W. would do good with today's meta because i am planning to use this tomorrow at our year ending legacy tournament here in Southern Manila. He suggested that i should try the W.W. deck that has Cataclysm. Personally, I like his idea of bringing back a D&T similar type, but unfortunately, I don't own a Cataclysm. So far here's my initial builds, which i will have my final tweaks tomorrow morning:

PLAN A.

15 plains
4 wasteland

4 aether vial
1 umezawa's jitte
1 Sword of light and shadow
1 sword of fire and ice
1 batterskull

4 STP
2 oblivion ring

4 mother of runes
4 hero of behold
4 stoneforge mystics
4 Serra Avenger
4 Squadron Hawk
3 Leonin Relic-Warder
2 Baneslayer Angel

2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant


or PLAN B.

4 Martyr of Sands
4 Mother of Runes
4 Ajani's Pridemate
4 Mother of Runes
4 Serra Ascendant
4 Soul Warden
4 Soul's Attendant
2 Baneslayer Angel
2 Ranger of Eos

2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Proclamation of Rebirth

20 Plains

just my two cents
:-)

[paeng4983]

I only finished with a 3-2-0.
won against: merpok, BWg junk and hypergen decks
lost against: elves and affinity

here was my list
21 plains

2 elspeth v.1

4 stp
2 pte
3 o.ring

3 spectral possession

1 batterskull
1 sword of feast and famine
1 jitte

2 soltari priest
4 mother of runes
3 Leonin Relic-Warder
3 fiend hunter
3 stoneforge mystics
3 baneslayer angel
4 squadron hawk

SB
2 day of judgment
1 tormod's crypt
2 relic of progenitus
4 leyline of sanctity
3 journey to nowhere
3 revoke to existence


The deck somehow performed well.
I might remove fiend hunter, or just lessen's number into 2.
i really love that cat relic-warder. It catches my opponents by surprise removing their fetched batterskulls.

[Freggle]

Other cards to consider:

Kor Skyfisher - Great evasive two drop, and can (bounce) untap a land if you miss a land drop, among a myriad of other shenanigans

Ethersworn Canonist - Storm / blue draw strategies

Doomed Traveler - A solid alt opener to Vial or Mom

Leonin Arbiter - Give fetch, opposing Stoneforges, and Natural Orders a thorn in their side. Edit: but weakens your Stoneforge I guess :-/