In the more controlling builds:
Is goblin guide still the best choice? He certainly is great in the aggro/burn builds because he is basically a burn spell that has the potential to deal more consistent damage.
However, I sometimes feel he is a liability in the controlling builds. Giving them land which helps their board position and can hinder your dazes/spell pierce. He also isn't evasive like delver, which means he has trouble going the distance later in the game.
I've been experimenting with mogg fanatic for a bit because he seems to fit the strategy better for the counter builds. He takes out utility creatures, still swings in when there are no blockers, and can go straight for the dome if necessary (getting rid of bridges is nice too).
Cons are: he isn't very big, so he can't do nearly as much damage as guide can. He can't trade with X/2s anymore. No haste (although *slightly* offset by his sac ability).
Obviously, I'm not sure if it is the right move yet, since guide can still set you up in the early game for a win in the later game, but I wanted to hear other people's opinions.
"There are some who call me...Tim"
4 ponders are too many in my opinion. The only time I get hiccups with this deck is if I didn't mulligan as aggressively as I should have and I'm stuck with only one land for first 3-4 turns which are the most crucial.
Do you see a lot of dredge players in your area? because mogg fanatic seems like an unrepentantly subpar card for this deck except against dredge. I started off really not liking goblin guide and honestly it won't win you the game but it does a few important things like forcing your opponent to interact possibly earlier than they wanted to, provides a target for spot removal other than delver which is awesome because that thing will either win you the game outright or drive your opponent's life down far enough that you can burn them the rest of the way if you can keep swinging with it. I'd say the arguments against fanatic outweigh it's positive aspects.
Last edited by wutangkillabeezonaswarm; 01-06-2012 at 07:08 PM.
"It is not to be thought that the life of darkness is sunk in misery and lost as if in sorrowing. There is no sorrowing. For sorrow is a thing swallowed up in death. And death and dying are the very life of the darkness."
Still running the same MD, down to the card. Andrew cut a Fireblast for the 4th Fow, but I didn't like it.
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Fireblast
3 Price of Progress
4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
2 Daze
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Ponder
4 Chain Lightning
2 Island
2 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Volcanic Island
Despite being a more "controlling" build, if you can even call it that, Goblin Guide is a critical part of the deck. He can get in alot of damage early, and multiples are actually good. The deck NEEDS another 1 drop to compliment Delver, and Guide fills that role like no other creature can. I don't think this deck, in any form, can really afford to cut him. Granted, this is very far from what I originally thought, but Snapcaster Mage and Grim Lavamancer are not sufficient enough "permanant pressure" for the deck to win reliably without him. I've had Guides go unanswered and win the game quickly many-a-time. If they play a blocker, it's usually a ripe target for Submerge. Lavamancer and Delver are way better at closing obviously, but Guide typically does a great job early game. I'll also say, that Fireblast is one of my MVP spells, and I love being able to support it in a Snapcaster version. I like playing the 2x, because I'll RARELY see them in multiples, but it's a card I always want to have up my sleeve.
Fireblast is definitely needed in this deck. You don't run goyf/knight of the reliquary so you need answers for those cards due to how commonly you'll run into them, not to mention they'll block your creatures all day. Scryb sprite gets my vote for most annoying creature to deal with but at least it's only 1 toughness so it dies to every removal piece we have; lavamancer on the cover is very subpar but it solves another problem with this deck and that's spell priority. You only have so much burn to put out and if you can consistently take out utility bears like gaddock teeg/bob/etc then you can save those extra cards to zap your opponent. Sometimes a resolved lavamancer and a few cards in the yard can keep the board clear enough for you to get at least one more phase of combat damage through before they start developing their board and your initial attack is slowed.
"It is not to be thought that the life of darkness is sunk in misery and lost as if in sorrowing. There is no sorrowing. For sorrow is a thing swallowed up in death. And death and dying are the very life of the darkness."
Hate to nitpick, but that's the last thing I want to use my Fireblast on, unless it's getting an attack through and ending the game right there. Even there you run the risk of them having spot removal, and surviving while you have no lands. It's really just the finisher for me, almost always to the life total FTW. Lavamancer is amazing at getting them into range. Once they get to around 12-11 life, there are so many cheap combinations of cards + Fireblast that win the game right there. Goyf and Knight are why 4-3x Submerge SB are staples.Originally Posted by wutangkillabeezonaswarm
I too would rather aim fireblast at the dome but sometimes I'll get caught without any counters and i'm staring at a jace or some other big problematic planeswalker and I can either let it get bigger and let it kill me or sac 2 lands and blast it off the board as a last resort.
"It is not to be thought that the life of darkness is sunk in misery and lost as if in sorrowing. There is no sorrowing. For sorrow is a thing swallowed up in death. And death and dying are the very life of the darkness."
Thank you for all the good discussion about the deck guys. It really makes me feel like an ass for being on my phone and not being able to update the Primer =(. If anyone wants to create a better version I could c/p it into the mainpage but my phone sucks so I cant go back and really edit it.
Also, my current build.
13
//Creature
4 Goblin Guide
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Vendilion Clique
//Planeswalkers 2
2 Jace, the Mindsculptor
//Instant 18
4 Force of will
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Daze
3 Spellsnare
//Sorcery 4
4 Ponder
//Lands
4 Volcanic island
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Arid Mesa
2 Island
2 Mountain
This is what I am currently messing around with for a more control centric Aggro-Control Build. I think I will cut down or cut out the dazes though for more burn as in testing I am wishing I had more burn.
Belcher
Delver
Dredge
When your heart won't beat, your eyes go black
There's a light in the tunnel and you can't turn back
Your friends can't save you, your family's gone
You're waiting on your judgment at the foot of the throne
Will you beg for some mercy? Will you cop some pleas?
Will you stand on your own or get down on your knees?
Will your angels release you from where demons dwell?
Will you make it into Heaven or go right back to Hell?
Only time will tell
I agree with you on most of what you've posted, but how are you paying for fireblast with snapcaster? It's my understanding that alternate casting cost don't function under flashblack so you would have to pay
One of the reasons I think this deck does so well is because of how much of it costs cc1. If you think of that over time you'll have around 5 spell cast by turn three while your opponent hast 2-3, If any of yours are counter spells or creature control you've massively out tempo'ed them. This means it has an inherent tempo element built in in it's speed. As I mentioned I see this differently here's my list:
3 dismember
4 lightning bolt
4 price of progress
4 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 daze
4 spell pierce
4 force of will
3 grim lavamancer
4 goblin guide
4 delver of secrets
4 mishra's factory
4 scalding tarn
4 misty rainforest
3 island
1 mountain
2 volcanic island
//sideboard
1 grim lavamancer
3 relic of progenitus
2 faire macabre
1 surgical extraction
1 curfew
2 pyrostatic pillar
1 dismember
1 submerge
2 echoing truth
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
I can't emphasize enough how strongly suggest you try out mishra's factory it's a great creature and can pay for opposing dazes/ pierces, and cast dismember, daze, PoP, and the majority of my current sideboard.
Also @ Beatusnox
I really like that list
I'm wondering, how are you even surviving running Dismember, 4 PoP, and 4 factories/2VI's? Even just bare minimum, running a single factory and a single VI, PoP hits you for 4, dismember hits you for 4, and your 8 fetches add up quickly.I agree with you on most of what you've posted, but how are you paying for fireblast with snapcaster? It's my understanding that alternate casting cost don't function under flashblack so you would have to pay
One of the reasons I think this deck does so well is because of how much of it costs cc1. If you think of that over time you'll have around 5 spell cast by turn three while your opponent hast 2-3, If any of yours are counter spells or creature control you've massively out tempo'ed them. This means it has an inherent tempo element built in in it's speed. As I mentioned I see this differently here's my list:
3 dismember
4 lightning bolt
4 price of progress
4 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 daze
4 spell pierce
4 force of will
3 grim lavamancer
4 goblin guide
4 delver of secrets
4 mishra's factory
4 scalding tarn
4 misty rainforest
3 island
1 mountain
2 volcanic island
//sideboard
1 grim lavamancer
3 relic of progenitus
2 faire macabre
1 surgical extraction
1 curfew
2 pyrostatic pillar
1 dismember
1 submerge
2 echoing truth
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
I can't emphasize enough how strongly suggest you try out mishra's factory it's a great creature and can pay for opposing dazes/ pierces, and cast dismember, daze, PoP, and the majority of my current sideboard.
Also @ Beatusnox
I really like that list
I don't really get the point of the mishra's factories when you have more than enough cheap little beaters. Price of Progress seems not so fantastic when you yourself may have 2-3 non basics in play..
I agree with Kich tbh, While factory is good, in a more aggressive build, you really do not need them, and they will hurt you more with Price of Progress than anything else. If you want to run factory as an Alt win, I would recommend dropping Price for any other burn spell that could be abused, or even more creatures of some kind, even in my more control Build I am running More Creatures and more ways to abuse what I have with those creatures. You seem at the moment stuck between the two mentalities of the deck unsure of where to continue. If this is the route you wish to take, please, feel free, but I would definitely think more of how to make it less of U/R suicide than it is.
I apologize for any statements in the above that offend of come off overly strong, but they are valid(imo).
@Supa_Tim.
I do not like Mogg Here. While in slight or even RDW with blue, it could definitely see play, we dont want to blow our load so to speak and then sit there. While he can be sacrificed for one to take out a utility creature, I would much rather swing in with guide. And kill the creature without losing my own creature. Goblin Guide also in my experience plays a dual role against opponents, if they sideboard for you as a fast aggro control deck, and you turn out and in game two, play a slower more Control heavy way, they will most likely have kept a poor hand against you. I have had several people assume I am playing some random Jank because of playing aggro with Guide, and just brainstorming. More and more people are catching on to this archetype existing, but many are still unsure if it is just burn with brainstorm or if it is an actual deck. Anyway, I digress, I do not think Mogg is good here, he just doesn't seem to put in the same amount of work that Lavamancer or Guide can, now, if you want to try running guide and Mogg, that could have interesting results, but I do not feel that Guide would be replaced my him.
Dredge
When your heart won't beat, your eyes go black
There's a light in the tunnel and you can't turn back
Your friends can't save you, your family's gone
You're waiting on your judgment at the foot of the throne
Will you beg for some mercy? Will you cop some pleas?
Will you stand on your own or get down on your knees?
Will your angels release you from where demons dwell?
Will you make it into Heaven or go right back to Hell?
Only time will tell
regarding nonbasic lands and PoP maindecked, i think that 4 Volcanic Islands is too many. you never want more than 1-2 in play, and with 10 fetchlands, it should be very easy to still open with one.
My landbase:
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Island
3 Mountain
2 Volcanic Island
_________________
= 18 lands, 10 Fetch, 6 Basic
Volcanic Island does not allways stick if your opponent draws multiple Wastelands. I think it is actually a good thing sometimes if we have lands they want to waste. This deck survives with much fewer lands than other decks so they will hurt their own game while wasting our Volcanics. Against RUG tempo this is not true but allmost every other deck that runs wasteland misses a vital land for mana if they decide to waste Volcanics.
wouldnt by the time you get double wasted have at least a basic island and mountain in play? I dont quite see many decks that T1 wasteland and then T2 wasteland aside from MUD.
Yes of course. I just think with this deck you dont have to worry about Wasteland so much. You want to fetch a basic first but after that when you naturally draw in to Volcanics they are good for that one crucial turn when you have access to double blue or double red mana. Then your opponent has to think if they want to waste the Volcanic or play some other lands.
you want to fetch a volcanic first. fetch basics only afterwards. you will have double whatever from the beginning unless your opponent blows his/her first turn with a wasteland.
Regardless i'm almost certain that 4 Vi's is too many. I'll stick with 2.
I'm currently running 2 Volcanic Island. Feels good, feels right.
I would go more like this.
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Island
3 Mountain
3 Volcanic Island
18 lands, 9 Fetch, 3 Dual, and 6 basic. But I like variety in the fetch lands. I do agree that 4 V-Islands is not required; but I don't like having more fetches than mana producing lands.
This isn't a really complicated deck to learn how to play unlike cephalid breakfast or any other degenerate 20-minute-per-turn combo deck so my philosophy concerning what to put in and what not to has basically been "keep it simple, stupid". Would I rather pop jace into play one turn and start building him up, or hold my mana and play snapcaster and flashback price during my opponent's attack phase?
Would I rather summon a vendilion clique, or ponder and front like i may be holding a counter? This deck is very aggressive. That's true. But you have to be a little smarter than just dazing/fowing everything people throw down, or burning every weenie that resolves. Let them come to you first, then ju-jitsu their ass and have them staring at price for 8 plus another body on the board. Then when they think you're tapped out and they think it's safe to play a big guy, BAM sac two and fireblast their ace in the hole. Play with cards that let you react and steal their advantage.
"It is not to be thought that the life of darkness is sunk in misery and lost as if in sorrowing. There is no sorrowing. For sorrow is a thing swallowed up in death. And death and dying are the very life of the darkness."
You're wrong. The best play is Island - Delver - Go. I fetch for it all the time. 4 Volcanics is absolutely correct, because it's our only land that hurts us, and naturally drawing it can actually save you, as opposed to screw you when you can't cast double red or even red at all. I'm almost certain that you're wrong on this one, and the points about Wasteland are so true. We WANT to get wasted, because it gives us another draw step of action spells, and we should be able to find more lands. Between their Wastes and often fetching the basic Island, I see good reason for 4 Volcanics. Why not lower your variance?
my play is VI, guide, attack go. tha way it leaves up daze as an option, which forces a wasteland or to miss first turn. also guide can hopefully get them more nonbasics for PoP. I dont like to cast delver until i can ponder or brainstorm same turn as it.
I once drew 2 VI's in my opening hand with some other sick cards but then I topdecked the third one and it basically shut of my PoP win-con. you never want to see 3 VI's in a game.
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