I've heard somewhere that it is acceptable for 1 Ponder and 1 land hands but not Brainstorm.Originally Posted by matunos
I agree that making it slightly faster isn't really tempo.
Ponder offers you the opportunity to shuffle without needing a fetch. With Brainstorm, you want a fetch for that shuffle option.
However, Stoneblade doesn't play Ponders, and even if it did, I would probably not keep a hand with only one land and a Ponder, because missing an early land drop can be devastating, and even with the free shuffle you're still hoping to top-deck a land in two draws. Too risky for my taste.
If I don't see at least two color-producing lands (or fetches) in my opening hand, I almost invariably mull.
I agree, just because there are stifles and dazes doesn't make that a tempo build and vialing out a batterskull isn't really a tempo play. If you want to it be more tempo oriented I guess you'll have to add delver and cut Jace or something but I don't really see that being a great game plan but hey, if it works for you keep doing it then. Don't let us tell you otherwise.
On another note, I don't have issues waiting till I have counter backup to drop a SFM or Jace, or wait for my opp to run out of gas. I feel like I have plenty of uses for my mana that I can wait till it's safe to drop a wincon. I see it time and time again however (especially under the camera at SCG events) of people playing SFM on turn 2 with no backup and it gets killed, then they lose with equipment still in hand. The way I see it is this is more of a control deck, play it like so.
I've just finished 4th in a 234-people tournament in Paris this weekend, earning 4 Wasteland and 4 Tropical Island :
4 Flooted strand
3 Scalding tarn
1 Arid mesa
4 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
5 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
3 Wasteland
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Snapcaster mage
1 Vendilion clique
2 Geist of Saint traft
1 Elspeth, knight errant
3 Jace, the mind sculptor
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of will
4 Swords to plowshares
2 Lightning Bolt
3 Spell snare
2 Counterspell
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of feast and famine
Sideboard :
2 Pyroblast
1 Red elemental blast
2 Wrath of god
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Disenchant
2 Spell pierce
3 Surgical extraction
1 Timely reinforcements
1 Umezama's jitte
Side in/side out vary according to your opponent, his version and if you are on the play or the the draw.
RUG Tempo :
+ 2 Pyroblast, 1 REB, 2 WoG, 2 EE, 2 Spell Pierce, 1 Timely Reinforcement, 1 Jitte
- 4 FoW, 3 Spell Snare, SOFAF, 2 Counterspell, Vendilion/Elsepth/Jace
Stoneblade :
+ 2 Pyroblast, 1 REB, 2 Spell Pierce, 1 Disenchant
- 3/4 Force of Will, 2/3 Swords to Plowshares
Maverick :
+ 2 WoG, 2 EE, 1 Disenchant, (Jitte et Spell Pierce is a possibility according to their version)
- 4 FoW, Clique/Spell Snare/Counterspell/Batterskull
Reanimator :
+ 2 Pyroblast, 1 REB, 2 Spell Pierce, 3 Extraction
- 2 SFM, SOFAF, 2 Bolt, 1 Jace, 1 Elsepth, 1 Spell Snare
ANT :
+ 2 Pyroblast, 1 REB, 2 Spell Pierce, 1 Extraction
- 4 Swords to Plowshares, 1 Jace, 1 Elspeth
Dredge :
+ 2 Pyroblast, 1 REB, 2 Spell Pierce, 3 Extraction, 2 WoG, 2 EE, 1 Jitte
- 2 Bolt, 1 Elsepth, Jace, SOFAF, Clique, 3 Spell Snare, 2 Counterspell, 2 Swords to Plowshares
Zoo :
+ 2 WoG, 2 EE, 1 Timely, 1 Jitte (2 Spell Pierce may be sidable against Big Zoo)
- 4 FoW, Clique/Snare/SOFAF/Counterspell
Any thoughts ?
Congrats on the 4th place finish!
How's your experience with Timely Reinforcemets been? I've thought about trying that myself. Did that replace any alternatives you considered, and if so, why?
Congrats on the finish!
My thoughts:
Why would you take out Spell Snare against RUG Tempo? Especially if you are going 2nd - It stops Goyf, Snapcaster and Fire//Ice (if they play it). I would leave in Spell Snare and keep WOG in the board. Also, I'm not sold on Timely Reinforcements - at best, you are buying yourself some chump blockers against Goyf and Thresed Mongoose and soldier tokens don't fly to block Delver.
Maverick - I would definitely bring in Jitte. Against what builds would you bring in Spell Pierce? Against Choke?
Reanimator - I would leave in all 3 Spell Snare, as most of their reanimation spells are 2 cc (Animate Dead & Exhume) - From you list, I would go +1 Spell Snare, +1 Jace (just for the bounce and to pitch to FOW), - 2 Geist or Counterspell (I'm not sold on counterspell, as you already have 4 FOW, 2 Spell Pierce, 2 Pyro, 1 REB and 3 Spell Snare)
ANT - Why not take out the remaining 2 Jaces for 2 Surgicals? When would you tap out to play Jace? Personally, I've casted Jace against ANT before, but it was a game I already won due to my opponent's poor draws. I would need 5-6 land to play a Jace and against ANT, that's just not practical.
Dredge - Why are you taking out STP and Lightning Bolt? Bolts are good against Pit Imps and Narcomebas and STPs take care of Ichorids and huge Trolls. I would +2 Bolt, +2 STP, -2 Jace, -2 Geist (you seem to really like Geist, I notice you never take him out - not even against Maverick - Geist shines in the mirror and against RUG, but against any kind of deck with 20+ creatures, you should consider taking him out)
Zoo looks good, except I would do -4 FOW, -2 Geist. Against big zoo, what are you bringing the Pierces in against? GSZ, Choke?
Do you miss not having PTE in the sideboard? I'm sure the maindeck Lightning Bolts help, but I would switch the Timely Reinforcement for a PTE or a 2nd Disenchant.
Well, thank you for your comments !
First, i must say that I'm playing Legacy only since one year, not playtesting that often and Legacy being such a diverse format, i'm obviously lacking experience.
I was excepting around 25% of "Burn" decks (RUG Tempo, UR Counterburn, Burn and Zoo) and against these decks i feel like it's the best card i can cast as gaining 6 life is huge and having 3 chumpblockers to game more life and time is also great, without mentioning the possibility to Snapcast the card. You have a better late game against these decks so your main concern is to live long enough to take advantage of that better late game and Timely Reinforcements does exactly that.
I'm not completly sold on Timely Reinforcements though ... a 3rd Bolt in the sideboard might be better.
Against RUG Tempo : In France, nearly nobody plays Snapcaster in RUG. Everybody plays Nimble Mangoose instead and the average number of Fire/Ice is probably 2. So i don't want to have situational cards like Spell Snare that can counter only a few spells. I'm not sure on WoG yet, but having two more outs to Nimble Mangoose (a nightmare for Stoneblade) and a potential blowout seems good enough.
Against Maverick : You are totally right on Jitte. As TKDoko mentioned, Spell Pierce seems good enough on playtests to be playable against Maverick to counter problematic spells like Sylvan Library, Choke, GSZ and Elsepth.
Against Reanimator : You are also right. I didn't know which last cards i had to side out. I blindly chose Spell Snare because i feel like that have so many reanimation spells that the fight should be more on countering their way to put creatures in the GY or around Surgical Extraction. But, it's essential to buy you as much time as possible in the early game so Spell Snare shouldn't be sided out as you noticed. I haven't testing Geist against Reanimator actually so I need more testing to choose between Geist, Jace and Counterspell.
Against ANT : Jace is indeed my worst card after sideboard but i really don't like Extraction. I feel like the only rare cases Extraction will make me win games (extracting away their Cabal Ritual or Infernal Tutor on PiF or make them "discard" a key card in their hand) are less likely than needing a blue card to pitch on FoW and the cases where i have SOFAF untaping effect (basically your best aggro plan) where the Brainstorm of Jace refill your hand into an unbreakable wall of counterspells. I might be wrong though. I'm also considering keeping 1 or 2 more Swords to Plowshares against Xantid Swarm/Dark Confidant but this plan seems like a risky gambit game 2 as the ANT can also be playing Carpet of Flowers or Defense Grid instead of Xantid Swarm...
Against Dredge : I'm really unexperienced in this match up but i feel like with your sideboarding, if i take a Cabal Therapy or Ancient Grudge on Batterskull, i only have 4 1/2 and 4 2/1 left to kill which seems to bit light to say the least ^^;. I'm not a big fan of Bolt and StP here. I know that Bolt can remove Bridges et StP exiles Ichorid, but if Ichorid starts to matter, it means that your opponent is already dredging at least 5 or 6 a turn, and spots removals against "endless" steams of free creatures doesn't seem great... But, on the other hand, you want to but as much time as possible so spot removal might be usefull in the early game ...
Against a bad big Zoo playing GSZ, Choke and Elsepth, Spell Pierces are a reasonable possibility imo.
You may want to consider PTE over Lightning Bolt - If you are expecting any Nic Fit, Maverick, Tarmogoyfs or Tombstalkers, Lightning Bolt just won't get it done. Also, for decks that are running no basics (RUG, Team America, etc), PTE is better than STP. Finally, the PTE removal is relevant versus Veteran Explorer, Academy Rector, Bridge from Below, etc. (anything you don't want the creature to hit the yard).
Versus RUG Tempo, I'm running Mishra's Factories in my list, so I can always block, pump and exchange with Mongoose (or if I have two factories, pump one to 4/4 and survive vs. Mongoose). I understand your point that Mongoose is hard to kill...
Against Reanimator, let me know what your playtesting shows is the best to take out - Geist, Counterspell or Jace.
Against ANT, ask yourself, when are they hoping to go off? Turn 3? Is Jace really practical? If you hit turn 4 (4 mana in play), are you going to tap out to play Jace? I'm not even sure I would do that with 2 FOW + 2 blue cards in hand. Regarding leaving the STPs in, I understand your point and sometimes I will leave STP in against ANT if I know they have Dark Confidant/Xantid Swarm in the board (I think Confidant is more common, as it doesn't cause ANT to pick up an extra color - if Counterbalance becomes popular, ANT will run green for Krosan Grip, so Swarm will become more common). You are already running 2 Lightning Bolt and Jitte can also be a good sideboard card against ANT - it kills their creatures, gives you life and speeds up your clock. Surgical Extraction can be good to make them 'discard' (as you mention), but it can also force them to shuffle, messing up Brainstorm or Ponder effects. Additionally, after an Ad Nauseam (and you've seen what they've drawn), you can Surgical Extraction, or in response to a Cabal Ritual to remove Threshold or in response to Ill-Gotten Gains. It's just a really nice trick that ANT decks aren't always expecting...
Against Dredge, read the relevant part of this article: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...toneforge.html It basically says to kill Narcomebas and Ichorids, because they really don't have any other creatures with which to generate tokens.
Hi! I'm new into playing this deck, because i've always played aggro decks like Merfolk, burn, and affinity. I recently turned into control (because I had an UB Control deck in standard and I liked it a lot) but I find this deck so much hard to play due to the number of decisions to take.
Maybe it will seem a bit nooby question, but, can someone give me some tips/advices of how should I play this control deck, what decisions I should I take to make my game better and how to optimize my brainstorms?
Currently playing in Legacy:
Burn
Affinity
Merfolk
That List seems really sweet, but I have some points on it:
1. Did you miss the manlands (not playing them anymore because of too often losing your lands to spot removal? and did you upp the wasteland count to mana-screw your opponent or just to more reliably remove utility lands (second seems better, our deck isn't that good at mana-screwing the opponent without good ol' stifle)?
2. How has Geist performed for you? In which matchups does he shine? Is it really worth to go under 2 Cliques to play him? I would suggest a split of 2/2, but that would increase the count of mana-hungry spells too heavily... I mean, Clique is that good against combo and the mirror, so I really can't imagine our deck without it and 1 seems very situational.
3. Is 9 a good amount of counters? I really find myself wanting at least 10 (I play 11) in the maindeck to have a good preboard-win-percentage against combo and such decks as burn with price of progress, for which you really need the spell snares.
On sideboard:
1. Are pyroblasts that good against combo other than spiral tide? A split of spell pierce and pyroblasts like you play it seems to be the best for me.
2. You sideout batterskull against maverick but leave the mystics in? Are you sure on that? My sideboard strategy against maverick, which is heavily played here in Germany is rather siding out the complete mystic package to blank their artifact removal and loading up on mass removal, elspeth (play 1 main and 1 in the board) and so on, but my problem here is: I just can't win the third game in time :(
So, this was my first post on The Source.
Sorry for all my mistakes made, they were not intended.
To start with, read these articles:
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...toneforge.html
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...hould_Too.html
And you can watch these videos, too: http://www.teamadhd.nl/wp/?p=335 http://www.teamadhd.nl/wp/?p=62
General strategy depends on what you are playing against. If you are playing against Combo, you want a heavy counter hand to counter their combo pieces. Mid-range, a mix of removal and counterspell. Against another control deck, you want to drop a Jace or Geist to gain card/board advantage.
Regarding brainstorm, ideally, you want to be able to use a fetchland to shuffle cards away. For example, brainstorm, put two worthless cards back on top, crack fetch, shuffle and draw a new card during your next draw step. Brainstorm also depends on what you are looking for. Early game, it may be a land, mid game, a Swords to Plowshares, late game a Jace, WOG or Batterskull to finish out the game.
I know PtE is sometimes awesome, actually the best removal in some cases but in other cases it's just awful. "Pathing" a T2 Stoneforge is just so awful as you can die on Jace, Thrun, Elsepth or whatever 4cc bomb the next turn and in general giving a free land against 60 to 75 % of the field ... i just hate that. If you play straight UW, you have no other choice so you play PtE in your sideboard and/or a few main but when you play UWr, Lightning Bolt seems strictly better. I agree that it doesn't kill everything but it still kills around 80% of the played creatures and having the possibility to kill a Jace and finish off your opponent is a nice bonus.
Against ANT, i was thinking playing Jace on Turn 4 before untapping with SOFAF effect but you are probably right, Surgical Extraction is very likely better here.
I know that Mishra's Factory is great against Nimble Mangoose and other small creatures, that's why i was playing straight UW initially with 7 colorless lands but i was mulliganing too much and having some problems to get two blue and white so i deciding to cut some colorless lands. In case of someone is wondering, playing 3 colors with 3 colorless lands is more stable than playing 2 with 7/8 colorless lands thanks to fetch and dual lands mana base.
I decided to play only Wasteland in those 3 colorless lands because Wasteland is simply the best lands in Legacy. It kills problematic lands my Maze of Ith, Grove, man lands etc... and win game by itself every now and then. No other colorless lands is comparable imho. Playing 2 or 4 colorless lands might be the right number though.
Geist have been really amazing in nearly every single game i have been playing. I was very sceptical at first, like nearly everybody i guess, but truth is he won't leave my main deck any time soon. With 6 spot removal, Jace bounce, equipements and counters, it's not that hard to remove blockers. He fasten the clock like no other card can and he is basically good against everything. He is at his worst against heavy creatures decks and fast combos but even against these decks, it can win game sometimes. However, i am missing a bit Vendilion Clique and a 2/2 split is possible but probably a bit too manavore as you noticed.
Concerning the number of counters, it really depends of your metagame and your version. I basically cut a Spell Snare of a Bolt which is reasonable with my Geist version but playing 4 Spell Snare is good too.
Pyroblast is also awesome against any Show and Tell deck, but i prefer a split with Spell Pierce against decks like ANT or Dredge and to increase diversity.
I need a bit more experience against Maverick to be sold on my sideboard but Jitte and SOFAF seem a little better than Batterskull. With Geist your 2 Elsepth as a kill plan may be very good, but without Geist, it must be very hard to win game 3 in time as you said. I'm not sure you should remove SFM package here. "Blanking their artefact removal" is not that great against this deck because their artefact removal is Qasali and it is still a decent creature even if you don't have artefact in your deck anymore, it's not like if they would side in Ancient Grudge or Krosan Grip. SOFAF is also a great answer against Choke, one of our worst nightmare ;).
Anyway MadMaximus, don't worry ! Du sprichst sehr gut englisch ;)
I agree with your decisions here. Bolt is probably better against the majority of the field and the ability to go to the dome is huge - especially if you can snap it back, you could deal a good amount of damage and speed up the game a turn or two.
Good call on your manabase. I agree, in 3 color, it is more important to be consistent than to try to fit man-lands and colored mana together. Your manabase looks solid.
Ok, regarding the additional spot removal I am in the tank right now about it, have tried out 3 lightning bolts in the past, but I dislike my used manabase with manlands, wastelands, volcanics and the mountain. Is the mountain really needed, it acts effectively as another colorless source most of the time.
I am very much settled on wanting to play 6 spot removal pre board in my deck, but the question is: 2 Path to Exile or 2 Lightning Bolt? Path To Exile seems better, because when you play 2 the occasions on which you draw it in the early game seem rather rare and there are a few decks which don't even run basics out there. On the other hand, Lightning Bolt has some other sweet uses, as you mentioned killing a planeswalker or even with snapcaster deal 6 damage and speeding up the clock immensely.
So, is there a consensus on that issue?
I know it's not snappable, but how about an O-Ring, for those hard-to-reach areas?
I am playing UWr right now and probably will keep all the 3 colors 'til the german meta has shifted away largely from what it is right now with many UR Delver decks, Spiral Tide, Maverick and the mirror, mostly.
So, for problematic permanents like choke I have 2 Engineered Explosives in the Sideboard and I love that card, it is superflexible.
It can act as additional mass removal, or "only" spot removal for problematic creatures like delver first turn or mother of runes (important) but also having paid 3 for it, I can hit choke or other permanents which would influence the game state heavily in my opponent's favor.
So, imo, the Explosives are the best solution for UWr. The O-Ring could be interesting for me if I played straight UW, but I am concerned about the mana costs of it, 3 is too much for an additional spot removal, which can only hit one permanent.
In the early game you just can't afford spending 3 mana on removing, let's say a knight, because having tapped out, the opponent would be able to cast anything he wants next turn (assuming you don't have force of will ready, which I would never board out against maverick by the way)
My removal suite is essentially: 4 Sword to Plowshares, 2 Lightning Bolts (main)
2 Path To Exile, 2 Engineered Explosives, 2 Wrath Of God (board)
Pretty much the amount of removal I want to play, but as you see I am not completely sure about the structure.
What are your removal suites?
Hey guys so this is my latest Stoneblade List. I have decided to take out the red splash and trying Geist of Saint Traft. Thoughts?
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Snpcaster Mage
2 Vendlion Clique
1 Geist of Saint Traft
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Batterskull
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Spell Snare
3 Force of Will
2 Preordain
2 Mana Leak
1 Spell Pierce
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Wasteland
2 Mishra's Factory
1 Riptide Laboratory
1 Tower of Magistrate
1 Karakas
3 Island
1 Plains
Sideboard:
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Path to Exile
2 Spell Pierce
2 Wrath of God
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Disenchant
1 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Force of Will
I have opted for the Surgical over Purify the Grave as it's much better against Dredge and Storm. I'm also finding Wasteland pretty average in this deck and maybe even cut down to 1 but seems good with the Crucible so will keep at 2. Preordain has been amazing for me so far.
What are you taking out against Maverick? You add 6 cards, what do you remove? I always remove FOW against MAV, just because I don't think we can afford the 2:1.
I run UW and my removal suite is 4 STP, 1 ORing, 1 Jitte (pseudo-removal) main and 3 PTE, 2 WOG, 1 EE side. I also run 2 KGrips (side) and a Trop Island (main), mainly for Batterskulls, but I will bring it in against Maverick for Choke, Sylvan Library and Equipment.
Against Maverick, I'm -4 FOW, -2 Geist (I run 2 main), -1 Jace, -1 SFM, + 8 above listed cards. I don't always bring in the Grips, as mana can be an issue (I only have one Trop Island and if it gets wasted, Grips are worthless, although I'm never going to fetch it until I need to use a Grip - this can become an issue if they have Aven Mindcensor in play). If I don't bring in Grips, I leave a Jace and SFM in the deck.
I'm not sure you should side out Geist against Maverick as they don't have that many 2/2+ creatures and you have a ton of removals after sideboard.
And if they play Punishing Fire and you unfortunately don't draw your Wastelands, Geist is your only threat that can stay alive.
My sideboard strategy against maverick is basically:
- removing the whole stoneforge package
- removing a couple 'o' spell snares
- boarding in 2 path, 1 additional else, 2 wrath of god, 2 engineered explosives, 1 - 3 surgical extraction (depending on their build, mainly for punishing fire, when they have red splash, which is popular)
my problem with that:
I rely heavily on my planeswalkers to close the game and that's pretty slow...
So, I probably will get to game 3, but then I can't close the game, what do you think?
Should I consider boarding the stoneforge package back in after game 2?
Seems reasonable, ain't it?
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