Ok, but then we have to assume that he's playing the Cage (which he probably is), AND that he has it to play Turn 1.Originally Posted by Vandalize
Based on what I've read and done some solitaire with, I'm of the impression that if the opponent doesn't have the Cage by Turn 2 (draw)/Turn 3 (play), he's not going to be able to hate on the yard because by that point we should be going off.
Let's say he does have it Turn 1 and he's on the play. I can imagine our turns to be something like this:
Turn 1 -- Draw, play land, play P. Imp, discard dredger, done.
Turn 2 -- Draw, play land, play Breakthrough for 1, draw 4, then either A)discard all except Grudge/Claim/whatever and hold it for next turn or B)discard all except dredger, then discard dredger to pump Imp. Either way, swing with Imp and pass turn. (I may even keep the dredger in hand to bluff)
Turn 3 -- This is where it could start to get hairy because we don't have any cards in hand unless we were able to keep a card to eliminate the Cage.
@Hokus: Why abandon Nature's Claim for Ingot Chewer/Shattering Spree?
I mean, you rarely will replicate Spree in LED Dredge, and Ingot Chewer is sorcery-speed... also, Nature's Claim can deal with random stuff, like Wheel of Sun and Moon and other enchantress-shenaningans.
to kill it. If they cant activate in response its better to have something uncounterable. Evoke gets you Bridge tokens through the Cage.
This man is a truthspeaker! You deserve a beer - if you see me in Ghent, you may present yourself to me as The Speaker of Truths and I will buy you a beer of choice
This
Exactly, Lavoisier was eventually beheaded at la guillotina for that line of thinking, let that be a lesson ^^
I really think Ichorid will find away around this, I'm just having fun. Hey, I'll play this deck over drafting k
May your suffering equal your weakness--Ihsan's Shade
Uncounterable?
Ok, Shattering Spree's replicate is harder to counter if you have at least 2 lands, and if Leyline disappear, maybe the enchantment-clause becomes less relevant. But about Ingot chewer, making tokens (if in late game) over instant speed + enchantment hate... I don't know, but I still prefer Nature's Claim.
We got DTB status back!
I'm guessing not for long though, especially when Dark Ascension shows up.
I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
I noticed people are not recognizing the power of Feithless Looting ... I`m already testing it since it was announced I can tell you ... IT IS the fastest Dredge configuration I found.
It makes easy to play 12 lands and still be able to tutor whatever you need in g2, g3 ... here is my list:
12x gold lands (City, Paradizes, Mines)
12x Dredgers (grave, imp, thug)
4x Careful Study
4x Faithless Looting
4x Breakthrough
2x Deep Analisys
4x LED
4x Bridges
4x Therapy
4x Aquamoeba
2x Dread Return
1x Ichorid
1x Gravecrawler
1x Sphinx of Lotus Truths
1x Angel of Despair
Most important MD choices I did:
12 Lands -> Yes, It is enough in this list... 8x carefull study make me secure to play like this ... an it is really usual to see me with 2 lands on the table
2x Deep Analisys -> Since I noticed I often had 2 lands I decided to include thien and it really worked
1x Cravecrawler -> I tested it just one week... but till now I didnt have problems to put it on the battlefield ... And I`m enjoying the possibility to use it the same turn it apears on the GY ... diferent form other guys that need an upkeep phase
1x Sphinx -> because speed is all I need !!! (I would even put 2 copies if it was not necessary for me to keep 1x Angel MD)
1x Angel of Despair -> I sometimes have to deal in my meta with few g1 challenges like snaring bridge, propaganda, batterskull
It is soon to talk about SB ... but 4x Nature`s Claim will for sure open my list
First of all, the power of Looting has been noticed and discussed.
Second I think you mean Narcomoebas(and if you don't , please explain yourself) , not Aquamoebas.
Third if you alreade insist of running Paradises over Coliseum(wtf) , Why play Gravecrawler and not Bloodghast?
Why do you play only 6 free guys? Why Deep Anal?If Speed is all you need, why not play more Free guys?
Sorry but I don't like your list at all :(
This man is a truthspeaker! You deserve a beer - if you see me in Ghent, you may present yourself to me as The Speaker of Truths and I will buy you a beer of choice
1 - The Looting comment is directed to those who plan to shelf the deck after Dark Assention.
2 - Sorry, I didnt noticed the mistake since this is how few people arround me call the Narcomoebas
3 - I want to cast my Feithless Looting turn 1 and be able to cast Nature`s Claim in g2, Coliseum dont make me secure of playing 12 lands... Furthermore, I have enough drawing options ...
4 - I still have to test more the Gravecrawler, however in the games this card appeared I had no problem casting it ... the best advantage is: it can enter the bettlefield the same turn it goes to Gy, without need a land card in your hand. Bloodgash makes you wait till next turn, when you dredge Dakamor. It is an issue of probabilities. It is more common for me to have a zombie in play and an untapped land then a land on my hands.
Furthermore, Dakamor is a dead land, I will not cast most of my spells with that. Ok, paradize can help me, but It will just come back next turn to activate bloodgash... often I need to keep it on the table, to not lose it due to LED or breaktrough...
Lootings or not, never play without Cephalid Coliseum. Go up to 14 land or use Chain of Vapor in your side, but play Coliseum.
As I told, that was the best configuration I found, those 2 Deep A. was enough to ensure the deck will not stop dredging after first rounds. And that was all I needed to show the power of this deck with particular poor hands.
I dont know if you noticed, but I dredge agressively with this list, thus 6 guys is all you need when you are able to put your entire deck into graveyard as I do.
Same here. No disrespect, but the list is dabbled with a lot of unnecessary stuff that I don't even know where to begin (not to mention that it's also missing a few necessities, as partially mentioned by HokusSchmokus). I find this to be a step backward from the LED Dredge List that has been optimized and proven over and over again. I suggest that you start from there, and then work your way towards what you're trying to achieve with the additions of the new cards - that will hopefully also help you learn what the actual names of the cards are (FYI, the card "Sphinx of Lotus Truths" does not exist). It will also help if you did some back reading on this forum so that we won't need to re-type much of what has already been discussed.
Kind Regards,
jares
I thought the Paradises itself make Bloodghast way better than Gravecrawler. Gravecrawler can be countered, don't know what is so good about him.
If you find yourself having too few lands, run lands in your sideboard. As you will board out LED a lot of the times you have a bit more space. I do think Looting and Deep Anal is overkill, btw.
Also I am quite sure that the LED lists back in the day were faster, more agressive and more consistent. Without looting.
If it works for you, sure, run it like this but don't be surprised if you fall on your face.
I wish you good luck tho.
This man is a truthspeaker! You deserve a beer - if you see me in Ghent, you may present yourself to me as The Speaker of Truths and I will buy you a beer of choice
The following might help:
- The speed of LED lists were pretty fine with just 2x Deep Analysis in the MD, and it seems to me that 4x Faithless Looting would probably be enough.
- I would also suggest running some number of Cephalid Coliseum, maybe in place of the 2x Deep Analysis. It looks like you intend on maxing-out on the gold lands, but it won't be a crime to run less than a set of Cephalid Coliseum.
- Increasing the Ichorid count will lessen the likelihood of not being able to dredge into enough creatures. 2x is the least that I would possibly run in the MD.
- Gravecrawler is a card that demands a lot of attention because it needs a Zombie in play to be useful from the graveyard. In your list, you're not even running Putrid Imp (the best Zombie you'll find in the Dredge lists), so you're essentially banking on Bridge from Below to create Zombies for Gravecrawler - this is where the card becomes sub-optimal (or maybe win-more) for Dredge (or at least for this configuration). "Free" creatures are supposed to feed Bridge from Below, not the other way around. This slot should probably be used for another Ichorid. The only way that I see with which Gravecrawler would be useful in Dredge would be in a configuration that uses Putrid Imp, Ashen Ghoul, and 4x Gravecrawler (because it's also a Zombie, and you can also cast it from your opening hand).
- If you're going for speed, then Flame-kin Zealot is definitely your guy. This creature probably deserves the slot you've given to Angel of Despair, given that your game plan won't really allow the game to last long enough for your opponent to play the cards that you've mentioned (so the Angel might not be as necessary). In my opinion, Sphinx of Lost Truths and Flame-kin Zealot are the best of friends!
- I prefer having the number of Dread Return to be equal to "X + 1", where X is the number of DR targets I have in the deck. In your case, I'd run 3, but I don't think you have space for that. 2x might be enough given the density of your enablers (draw).
- Undiscovered Paradise is probably fine given that you're not currently running Cephalid Coliseum.
- If you're looking for space in the MD, it looks to me like you can afford to cut 1-2 Careful Study.
I hope that helps
Cheers,
jares
You are being way too kind here. Just put in in a way nobody misunderstands:Gravecrawler is sub-par(read:sucks) and there is no way anybody running 1 Ichorid is going to be an agressive deck. We need free creatures. Free Creatures. Free. Understand? Even Bloodghast is endless times better than Gravecrawler and I think Ichorid trumps them both. No permadiscard means even more fizzles. No uncounterable draw means more fizzles. So to put Jares very kind post in a few short sentences:The following might help:
- The speed of LED lists were pretty fine with just 2x Deep Analysis in the MD, and it seems to me that 4x Faithless Looting would probably be enough.
- I would also suggest running some number of Cephalid Coliseum, maybe in place of the 2x Deep Analysis. It looks like you intend on maxing-out on the gold lands, but it won't be a crime to run less than a set of Cephalid Coliseum.
- Increasing the Ichorid count will lessen the likelihood of not being able to dredge into enough creatures. 2x is the least that I would possibly run in the MD.
- Gravecrawler is a card that demands a lot of attention because it needs a Zombie in play to be useful from the graveyard. In your list, you're not even running Putrid Imp (the best Zombie you'll find in the Dredge lists), so you're essentially banking on Bridge from Below to create Zombies for Gravecrawler - this is where the card becomes sub-optimal (or maybe win-more) for Dredge (or at least for this configuration). "Free" creatures are supposed to feed Bridge from Below, not the other way around. This slot should probably be used for another Ichorid. The only way that I see with which Gravecrawler would be useful in Dredge would be in a configuration that uses Putrid Imp, Ashen Ghoul, and 4x Gravecrawler (because it's also a Zombie, and you can also cast it from your opening hand).
- If you're going for speed, then Flame-kin Zealot is definitely your guy. This creature probably deserves the slot you've given to Angel of Despair, given that your game plan won't really allow the game to last long enough for your opponent to play the cards that you've mentioned (so the Angel might not be as necessary). In my opinion, Sphinx of Lost Truths and Flame-kin Zealot are the best of friends!
- I prefer having the number of Dread Return to be equal to "X + 1", where X is the number of DR targets I have in the deck. In your case, I'd run 3, but I don't think you have space for that. 2x might be enough given the density of your enablers (draw).
- Undiscovered Paradise is probably fine given that you're not currently running Cephalid Coliseum.
- If you're looking for space in the MD, it looks to me like you can afford to cut 1-2 Careful Study.
I hope that helps
Cheers,a
jares
Play Ichorid.
Play Coliseum
Play Putrid Imp
Cut shitty cards.
Profit.
Srsly why do people refuse to read the opening post?
Also, yeah I noticed you are "playing agressively" and stuff, in the turn 2 kill deck. Great news. Still you are not being more agressive just piling up Deep Anals. I mean, your list's % of killing with combat damage turn 2 is abysmal, at least compared to other lists. Note that I said "other" and meant"good"
Sorry if I am being an ass here, but sometimes shit like this (exspecially the answer) just gets me off.
This man is a truthspeaker! You deserve a beer - if you see me in Ghent, you may present yourself to me as The Speaker of Truths and I will buy you a beer of choice
I'm playing LED-Less Dredge at the moment and after playing a few games I find the new Cage to be quite dangerous. Having to mull aggressively seriously harms our victory %, especially since the chance of having Nature's Claim in our opening hand actually decreases as we throw cards away - I can't imagine myself doing this all the time, especially since it also becomes harder playing against blue decks, as taking mulligans makes DDD too slow. How are we supposed to adapt?
0.05.14 [Digital Devil] <Digital Devil> Ach! Hans, run! It's the Tarmogoyf!
0.05.17 [Hans (GER)] <Hans (GER)> ...
0.05.20 [<System>] <System> Player Lost
That's why I prefer Chewer, too. The chance to actually get chewer is quite good, at least against tempo or noncontrol decks.
A plan I will be using most though, is just win game 1, lose game 2, win game 3. Therapies ftw. I know this is kinda shaky but hey, if it works...LED makes this plan viable, at least kind of.
What I like about the new cage is that you can actually just keep on dredging. As I said this makes Ingot Chewer infinately better than Claim in handling that damned cage.
This man is a truthspeaker! You deserve a beer - if you see me in Ghent, you may present yourself to me as The Speaker of Truths and I will buy you a beer of choice
Ingot Chewer has the same problem, though - you have to mull aggressively or try a "Should I dredge or should I draw" approach - how is it any better than running Nature's Claim?
0.05.14 [Digital Devil] <Digital Devil> Ach! Hans, run! It's the Tarmogoyf!
0.05.17 [Hans (GER)] <Hans (GER)> ...
0.05.20 [<System>] <System> Player Lost
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