[Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)

[Koby]

Indestructible is nice in Standard; but eats Swords to Plowshares in Legacy. It's casual players' wet-dream.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Indestructible is nice in Standard; but eats Swords to Plowshares in Legacy. It's casual players' wet-dream.

Ditto with Vorapede. It's decent, but it's not really Legacy caliber. Kodama outclasses it as a hard-to-deal-with beater for its casting cost, and Deranged Hermit outclasses both of them in most metas as a green five drop for this particular deck. This is because Hermit provides either offense or defense, depending on the circumstance, and just plain puts more points of power on the board. Shit like undying is only really relevant when the most common removal in the format doesn't read "remove target creature from the game". Kodama is Swords-proof, and Hermit still leaves you with four creatures if he eats removal.

[johnbags401]

I really like Kodama of the North Tree in this deck. It is not just shroud, but trample also. Really nice when a they cannot chump it very effectively. Also, most decks don't run very many threats, so if they are going to block it, they will usually have to trade for it.

I don't think it is a replacement for Hermit Druid, but they fill different roles. If you have a Druid out, it makes your Deed kind of awkward. Also, with STP and Snapcasters running around, I have found that they have swords for the Druid more times than not.

Also, Kodama trumps Elspeth. The trample pretty much guarantees damage gets onto Elspeth vs Thrun.

[Koby]

I was playing a quick game last nite against UW Stoneblade with the / version running Sun Titan and I had some seriously problems dealing with Jace TMS. What tools do you guys use to deal with an on-board Jace with a stale board (it's hard to keep creatures on the field vs Snap-STP shenanigans).

I like the Kodama approach BTW, I was looking for a 5-drop so have some sort of "gang-buster" ability. I'll roll that into my deck.

[novatinhu]

I was playing a quick game last nite against UW Stoneblade with the / version running Sun Titan and I had some seriously problems dealing with Jace TMS. What tools do you guys use to deal with an on-board Jace with a stale board (it's hard to keep creatures on the field vs Snap-STP shenanigans).

I like the Kodama approach BTW, I was looking for a 5-drop so have some sort of "gang-buster" ability. I'll roll that into my deck.

MD i have 3 pulse and 2 Beast within against Jace, and dont have problems, i play with BG Caleb's list with some modifications.

Cya

[Arianrhod]

@Rukcus -- if you're running the Rector version, there's usually an O-Ring or a Faith's Fetters somewhere, alongside Pulses. Aside from that -- the best answer to a Jace is to name it with a Therapy and hope they don't topdeck another one. There are answers, but it's definitely a weak spot. If they can resolve and protect a Jace, you're usually in trouble. That's one of the nicer things about the blue and red splashes: they can legend-rule, or REB/pyro, respectively.

Kodama seems a little weak to me, but by all means try it out. If Kodama was 5 on the rear, I'd feel better about it; as is, I feel it's just going to die to Thrun/Goyf a lot.

[Greenpoe]

Panglacial Wurm could be good in the Persecutor build. Crack a fetch, use GSZ, sac an Explorer and get a 9/5 for 7 while you're at it? Pretty sweet source of free CA.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Panglacial Wurm could be good in the Persecutor build. Crack a fetch, use GSZ, sac an Explorer and get a 9/5 for 7 while you're at it? Pretty sweet source of free CA.

Seems like a lot of mana for what you get out of the deal. Hornet Queen or Gaea's Revenge seem better for 7-drops.

[John Cox]

I'm just looking at this deck for the first time and I'm wondering if protean is hulk worth running? He seems like you could do some crazy stuff with him. I can sacrificing him to a tower and getting finks and witness and then using witness to get him back, then going for witness and something else. You could get your whole deck out that way. He seems sweet.

[conboy31]

Assuming that grafdigger gets played in sideboards and occasionally main board via tutor packages (trinket mage, etutor), how to we move forward?

For example, here is a sample of cards that get hit from my list.
4 cabal therapy (flashback)
4 green sun zenith
x fetches for arbor
2 kitchen finks
1 recurring nightmare
2 sun titan

I feel like a strong list can be constructed that drops sun titan for planeswalkers or grave titan (etc), and recurring nightmare's advantage can be gained somewhere else. The lifegain of finks might be strong enough to leave alone, or be aware of cards like loxodon hierarch, spike feeder, grazing gladehart. Fetching up an arbor with a fetchland is not too huge, but protecting liliana and getting a body for nightmare is relevant. And that is where the good news ends. Not being able to flash back cabal therapy and losing GSZ is just a flat beating. Those two cards gain us the advantages and consistency to win games.

[Koby]

I've been testing a list with 2 Garruk Relentless and 2 Liliana, and have been really enjoying their synergy. It's a shame that Cage will punish this deck's tricks in the white splash version, but that may open the door to the Gifts package again.

[Arianrhod]

I'm not actually worried about Grafdigger yet. I'm taking a bit more of a wait and see approach. For the Flashback on Therapy being hit to really matter, he'd have to land a t1 or t2 Grafdigger...which isn't going to happen with the maindeck versions, and isn't guaranteed with the 3-4 in the sb people. Even if Grafdiggers hits, don't forget that it's a 1-drop artifact, which puts it squarely in the sights of Pernicious Deed, Qasali, and Maelstrom Pulse. I'm not saying that it won't be annoying, but I hardly think it's going to invalidate an entire swath of our deck. In a way, I'm actually happy if people start running Grafdigger's over some other forms of graveyard hate -- that means less hate that actually stop Rector from doing things.

[conboy31]

I too am taking the 'wait and see' approach, just mulling over some divergent strategies to sidestep or mitigate Grafdigger's relevance.

I can see options moving towards Rectors, no titans, increased planeswalkers and innocent bloods. Or, gifts based like Tao's latest trend.

[Richard Cheese]

I'm just looking at this deck for the first time and I'm wondering if protean is hulk worth running? He seems like you could do some crazy stuff with him. I can sacrificing him to a tower and getting finks and witness and then using witness to get him back, then going for witness and something else. You could get your whole deck out that way. He seems sweet.

Check out the ZeRo thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ess-Hulk-Combo). If you're going to run Hulk, you might as well combo off with him. Also that deck is actually pretty underrated right now IMO.

Had a crazy idea and threw SFM into my list for Batterskull and Jitte, and it's actually really strong in initial testing. I have no problem hardcasting Batterskull if SFM doesn't stick around, and with Maverick so popular, having Jitte and Cursed Scroll on top of Deed makes it really easy to control their board. Both equips also significantly improve the burn/UR Delver matchup. Also lets me run a meta sword in the board, probably Feast/Famine or Light/Shadow to swing past germ tokens into Jace.

I'm also going to harp on how good hexproof guys are right now. No StP, no Tower of the Magistrate, no Maze of Ith.

[Arianrhod]

Richard Cheese: can you say TreeBlade? /trollface

I'd caution people looking into Hulk-based options (including the ZeRO thread). While they may be good now, they will only continue to be so for the next week. While it's not necessarily a huge deal for a lot of decks, including this one, Grafdigger's WILL annihilate ZeRO unless they do some major adaptation. I think it's safe to say that Grafdigger's will be -huge- in the meta for a month or two, while everyone tries it out and sees just how good it actually is. Once the furor over it dies down, then I think it will be safe to evaluate Hulk and all of its degenerate offspring.

I find myself wondering if the meta has changed so substantially since the deck was originated over the summer. A few of us tried out SFM back then, and it was just awful. Kind of interesting that it seems better now.

Trollface aside, hexproof is a very strong keyword in general, especially since the meta as a whole has an enormous hard-on for spot removal at the moment. At the same time, Thrun is the only hexproofer that exists currently (pending the rest of DKA) that I would run. Dungrove is a house, but I worry about his 3-cmc, which is often right in the firing range of Deed. I also think that he might revolve a bit too much around being forest-heavy -- you want to be straight g/b or with a very, very slight splash to best take advantage of him, but that removes a lot of options and a lot of power from the various splash colors.

One final note on Grafdigger's -- once it hits, I think I am going to remove Sun Titan from my list, probably in favor of a third Eternal Witness. I'm going to leave Nightmare, though -- it's just too good game one, and I board it out half the time in anticipation of them hating it anyway. I'm most curious at this point as to the applications of Grafdigger's...as in, what is the threshold at which point people will board it in. Because honestly, if they're only boarding it in because of GSZ, IMO that's just a dead card in their deck. I don't think that I would even board it in against a nic fit deck, unless it was a variant that was especially dependent on the graveyard. More of interest is the E.T/Trinket control decks that will probably spring up (which I'm going to definitely be working on, since Trinket Mage is one of my favorite cards ever). A maindeck Cage in one of those decks could prove obnoxious, because then it would just be an effective and easily-grabbed hate card, as opposed to the idiots who will board in 4x Cage and then stare stupidly at us while we just pummel their faces in.

[routlaw]

I've played enough blue/white and enough RUG to know that Cage is not what you want to be doing vs. Nic Fit. Both decks are clearly the beatdown decks in this matchup, and Cage doesn't effectively stop the cards you really care about (the removal and discard) to dedicate boarding in as opposed to inserting higher threat density or really good reactive cards like Spell Pierce.

I wouldn't worry about it vs. this deck, but don't get me wrong it will be played-heavily-in blue decks looking for Leyline-grade hate without the Leyline "problem" of mulliganing into it.

[Richard Cheese]

Richard Cheese: can you say TreeBlade? /trollface

I'd caution people looking into Hulk-based options (including the ZeRO thread). While they may be good now, they will only continue to be so for the next week. While it's not necessarily a huge deal for a lot of decks, including this one, Grafdigger's WILL annihilate ZeRO unless they do some major adaptation. I think it's safe to say that Grafdigger's will be -huge- in the meta for a month or two, while everyone tries it out and sees just how good it actually is. Once the furor over it dies down, then I think it will be safe to evaluate Hulk and all of its degenerate offspring.

I find myself wondering if the meta has changed so substantially since the deck was originated over the summer. A few of us tried out SFM back then, and it was just awful. Kind of interesting that it seems better now.

Trollface aside, hexproof is a very strong keyword in general, especially since the meta as a whole has an enormous hard-on for spot removal at the moment. At the same time, Thrun is the only hexproofer that exists currently (pending the rest of DKA) that I would run. Dungrove is a house, but I worry about his 3-cmc, which is often right in the firing range of Deed. I also think that he might revolve a bit too much around being forest-heavy -- you want to be straight g/b or with a very, very slight splash to best take advantage of him, but that removes a lot of options and a lot of power from the various splash colors.

One final note on Grafdigger's -- once it hits, I think I am going to remove Sun Titan from my list, probably in favor of a third Eternal Witness. I'm going to leave Nightmare, though -- it's just too good game one, and I board it out half the time in anticipation of them hating it anyway. I'm most curious at this point as to the applications of Grafdigger's...as in, what is the threshold at which point people will board it in. Because honestly, if they're only boarding it in because of GSZ, IMO that's just a dead card in their deck. I don't think that I would even board it in against a nic fit deck, unless it was a variant that was especially dependent on the graveyard. More of interest is the E.T/Trinket control decks that will probably spring up (which I'm going to definitely be working on, since Trinket Mage is one of my favorite cards ever). A maindeck Cage in one of those decks could prove obnoxious, because then it would just be an effective and easily-grabbed hate card, as opposed to the idiots who will board in 4x Cage and then stare stupidly at us while we just pummel their faces in.

ZeRo definitely takes a hit from Cage, but like you said, it's going to come down to how much play that particular card sees, and as long as ZeRo remains somewhat under the radar, I don't think it will be that much of an issue. Just a suggestion for John Cox, as I think that's currently the best deck built around Hulk shenanigans.

I guess my general approach to the deck has been a bit different. Maybe I have unlucky draws or something, but early on I had way too many games where I opened with an Explorer but no sac outlet, or vice versa, or neither, so I really don't want to build a deck that absolutely depends on getting large amounts of lands into play. I want to be able to take advantage of that scenario, but not be totally dependent on it. I like reusable effects like Scroll, Stronghold, Top, and Batterskull a lot more than big angry bombs that I can't protect and will most likely just get sent plowing.

Yes, Dungrove does sometimes conflict with Deed, but so far at least, it hasn't been a big issue. Deed isn't the only removal I run, and Dungrove isn't my only threat. That said, I've also got Stronghold, Witness, and Sun Titan to get him back if I happen to bin them both and reeeeaaaaly need one for some reason. The forest thing hasn't been an issue, as I've purposely tried to avoid stressing my manabase much, right now Sun Titan is my only non-green double-costed spell, and I'm considering dropping that as well.

As for SFM, I really haven't done tons of testing with it, most of it against GWr Maverick, but so far I haven't dropped a game. Maverick seems pretty weak to artifact-based removal and sweepers - deal with Mom, and the rest is easy. UW Stoneforge likewise doesn't pack many answers to artifacts, and having Pridemage + recursion seems like it could tip the scales in our favor. Definitely a matchup I need to test more though.

There are still a couple flex slots I'm working on, once I've had more time to test and work through a few variations, I'll post my latest list. Or I can just shut up and go back to my Treefolk thread.

[Gheizen64]

Has scarscale ritual ever been considered in the deck? It kill veteran and give card advantage, it can give wickerbough another activation and can combine with some new Undying creature for more undying activations. I'd probably test it as a 2-of in the deck.

[Koby]

Perilous Research also achieves this effect, but as an instant. Granted, it's in blue...

For the cost of destroying our own creatures, I'd rather play with Diabolic Intent to get the card I want. Both of these still get nailed by Spell Snare.

[Greenpoe]

Has scarscale ritual ever been considered in the deck? It kill veteran and give card advantage, it can give wickerbough another activation and can combine with some new Undying creature for more undying activations. I'd probably test it as a 2-of in the deck.

Unless you really capitalize on the -1/-1 counter, I wouldn't play it- i.e., compare to Sign in Blood which sees no play.