[Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)

[Arianrhod]

@rukcus - I would dearly love to get a Gifts version running again. I just don't think that the meta is quite right for it at the moment, and there's a lot of R&D to be done on it anyway.

@Nelumbo - welcome to the thread! I actually like your list a lot. Why Wickerbough and Qasali both? I'd think that Qasali with Titan, Deeds, and Pulses should be sufficient. I find your lack of Recurring Nightmare ... disturbing. With Tops and shuffles, you should be able to find it by the point at which it matters, and with both Grave Titan and Deranged Hermit, you've got plenty of ways of abusing it. Since you're running Relentless, you might want to give Master of the Wild Hunt a shot -- he can do some pretty disgusting things, especially once Garruk flips.

I'd probably test -1 Wickerbough +1 Master, and -1 Swords +1 Recurring Nightmare. My thought is that you should have enough removal without the 4th Swords main, especially with Witnesses to recur them. This is even more the case considering that your sideboard will probably have more spot removal (targetted or sacrifice).

Speaking of which, what are you thinking for a preliminary sideboard? I know you said N/A, but have you thought about it at all?

[nelumbo]

Thanks for complimenting the list. I honestly believe it's one of the better versions I've seen of the deck. Someone, please provide a Donate for my Illusions of Grandeur ;)

The reason I play with both Pridemage and Wickerbough is becaus there's a lot of Stoneforge in my meta. Perhaps it's a bit overkill, but I've felt Wickerbough/Deed is a bit too slow at times (often) to handle the problem/problems. Perhaps I'm pushing it way too far, but I don't believe so sadly, since I'd like that spot for something else.

I really, REALLY want to run Recurring Nightmare and I might be wrong when I dismised it as a way to often dead draw. I've considered to give it another run in the deck and I'd be really happy in case if turned out positive.

Yeah, Master of the Wild Hunt seams awesome in this kind of version. He was actually an unknown card to me, prior to seeing it in your decklist. The main reason why I haven't given him a spot is becaus I don't own one. I'm doing some playtesting on saturday, so I'll give him a chance. MotWH was a actually

I'll consider give your suggestions (those are highly appriciated!). I'm a bit skeptic towards removing the 4th StP, but the more I ponder upon it I must confess it seams rather logic actually.

This is the SB I used during last tournament where I participated:
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Path to Exile
1 Deed
2 E Tutor
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Pithing Needle
2 Engineered Plague
1 Thrun (Didn't run one in the maindeck then. A huge mistake! Lost on game because of not being able to handle my opponents Thrun)
1 Skeletal Scrying
4 Leyline of the Void (Mainly because it was a evening tournament and I was tired so it felt like a nice nobrainer, instead of a - most likely better - and more flexible choise of graveyard hate.)

Edit: Oh, I totally forgot to mention that a huge problem that I faced during the last tournament was the 40 min games, since it always went to time. A bit frustrating to loose/draw against decks that I'm confident that I could beat with some more time.

[nelumbo]

Qweerios: Broodmate Dragon is one of the better suggestions regarding fatties I've seen! He seams like a very good reason to try red. The only disadvantage I can think of would be that he might be slightly worse than Grave Titan if you have to go the defensive path.

[Arianrhod]

Hmm -- your meta is infested with Stoneblade, but you don't have any Krosan Grips in your board?

I actually like Leyline of the Void a lot going forward. Many of the graveyard decks are actually SALIVATING at Cage being printed, because it doesn't actively kill them like Leyline does (Lands and Aggroloam come immediately to mind). I like Surgical/Extripate a lot personally, since you can screw up peoples' topdeck tutors and Tops with them, while stripping away threats and acting as general graveyard hate. But I do think that Leyline has gained a ton of value going forward.

If you have access to a Chains of Mephistopheles, I would highly recommend it. It's done a lot of good things for me, and although I don't board it in as much as I used to since adopting Phyrexian Arenas over Top, it still does good work for me (I used to board it in vs almost anything that was blue, now I reserve it for Stoneblade and storm decks....if you can stick it, High Tide literally can't win).

I'm going to say this generally for all of us, but it applies for you as well: going forward, I think Tragic Slip is a card we need to consider. It can ping away Delvers immediately, and oftentimes it can kill damn near anything, due to the amount of creatures that usually die with our deck. It's certainly much better than Dismember for us, and better than Darkblast as well, I would say.

From what I can infer of your meta, I would suggest something like the following:

3x Leyline of the Void
2x Leyline of Sanctity
2x Enlightened Tutor
2x Engineered Plague
1x Chains of Mephistopheles
1x Choke
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Xantid Swarm
1x Pithing Needle

I could see the Plagues as spot removal instead, Slip, 4th Swords/1 Path, Innocent Blood, etc...there's a lot of options. But it depends on what the Plagues are there for, really.

[Richard Cheese]

I second the name change to "Veteran Rock" or "Explorer Rock".

@ DukeDemon
I could see a Blue Rock build using Gifts Ungiven and Snapcaster Mage to do some heinous things. You only need 2 Snapcasters in such a build too.

Dora Rock!


Also "four little ******s"?? Jesus man, like I'm not embarrassed enough to say the deck name.

Edit:
Also Donner Party is kind of fitting...

Also what the hell Dora, get a shirt that fits!

[nelumbo]

I was considering Grip, but didn’t feel it would have enough value since I’ve access to two Disenchant-guys, two Pulse and three Deed in main. I’m rather certain they’ll be able to do the job and at the same time be more flexible. Also, I don’t believe there’s enough space in the SB for ‘em, as that would be on the expense of more important cards over all.

Totally agree regarding Leyline vs Cage, because of the reason you stated. What I’d play over 4 Leyline would be something like 2 Crypt (or something similar) and 2 Extirpate/Surgical for a more flexible game against decks that isn’t that graveyard dependent but take advantage of it.

Is Chains really that good? Seems like one of those cards that are nuts in theory but so-so in practice and too often a dead card. So far I’ve never had any real problems with Jace (the major reason to use it, right?), as Dungrove Elder and Thrun as really hard for those decks to handle. I can somewhat see the point an Academy Rector list though. Must say I’m very tempted to try a build with her. Well, actually did copy on of your old lists in the past and wasn’t impressed at all. In retrospect it’s indeed possible (or rather is a fact) that I was a lousy helmsman with the deck in the beginning. Suppose it’s hard to not be, as it’s way more tricky to play then most decks.
I'll give your latest version of the deck a try :)

Phyrexian Arena looks like a great addition to the deck! I’ve only tested it in my rather traditional The Rock build and so far I’m extremely impressed with it verses Dark Confidant.

Wasn’t aware of Tragic Slip. A really cool and maybe usefull removal without a doubt. Can’t see a reason to play it though, unless your plain g/b. Regarding Dismember, I felt it was way too slow or extremely dangerous to take 2-4 damage in order to play it during the early game.

I like the idea to only run 3 LotV in this deck, due to the fact that it can mulligan hard (and often have to) without being punished like a lot of other decks. Doubt I’d come up with that idea myself.

Xantid Swarm must be splendid in some match ups. I actually bought one to try in the board, so I’ll give it a try. How has it performed in your deck?

[nelumbo]

Richard Cheese: Haha! Dora Rock is a really good name!

"Also "four little ******s"?? Jesus man, like I'm not embarrassed enough to say the deck name."
Haha! I think it's a rather funny name, unless there's someone around that (by obvious reasons, unless you know him/her could be offended) ;)

[Arianrhod]

Xantid has been performing quite well. I have a lot of random control decks and a High Tide in my local meta, so it's been quite an allstar at getting a piece of hate in vs High Tide or landing a bomb vs control.

I tend to agree regarding Slip, but it pays to be aware of stuff like that. It's much more of a toy for the G/B version with no splash.

RE Leylines: don't forget, too, that this deck is eminently capable of hardcasting the damn things. Between that, and the E.T.s, you don't -want- more than 3, I would say, let alone -need- the 4th. You might be able to safely trim to 2x, in fact.

I don't usually bring Chains in for Jace, because most monkeys sit there and +2 him all day errday. I do bring it in for Brainstorm IF Snapcaster is present (and/or Ponder), because those types of decks are usually built to rely completely on the CA granted through flashing back Brainstorm after Brainstorm after Brainstorm in conjunction with shuffles. Chains completely shuts them down. It's much more of a combo hate card than a control hate card, though. All Storm decks utilize 10-12 cantrips to set up and sculpt, which they have to do repeatedly vs us because of our disruption through Therapies (and in some cases Hymn). High Tide in particular gets demolished by it, because they MUST remove it before even trying to go off. Otherwise, Time Spiral reads 4UU: Untap 6 lands, mill 7 cards.

As far as the name goes, let's not use Dora. It brings to mind Dora(n) Rock, which is a completely different type of deck. Probably out only hope for a witty name is to come up with some clever name for the synergy between Explorer and Therapy, since that's the one synergy that ALL versions of this deck are built around, regardless of whatever else people run alongside it.

[Richard Cheese]

Bertoncini Rock?

Actually I still like Donner Party, and I don't think IBA's vampire deck with the same name ever went anywhere, so it should be available.

Could also just name it after any famous explorer...Sir Francis Drake and his minions?

I have to register this thing at a GPT coming up, if we can't figure out a good name I'm just going to put nonsense in there.

[Tao]

For the Burn matchup: (Like P Fire suggested by Rabrab):

Tree of Redemption should be the gamechanger people want. Gains 10+ life

[Koby]

With the White splash, running Aegis of Honor is within reason, provided there's a reliable way to find it. Zuran Orb too.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Actually I still like Donner Party, and I don't think IBA's vampire deck with the same name ever went anywhere, so it should be available.

I can confirm this.

Also you people should really cut GSZ for Living Wish, it lets you move a lot of shitty situational cards like Ooze and Finks and Grave Titan to the board, and lets you run more good cards as four ofs mainboard. Also lets you get Bojuka Bog/Karakas, I dunno what else. I was tinkering with this deck a bit but got discouraged recently. Although Grim Backwoods seems like it might be good.

[Greenpoe]

Living Wish could work well as a 2-of or 3-of, it's just a GSZ that costs 1 more mana and can black creatures and creatures when you can't cast them until next turn. Slower than GSZ when you have tons of mana, but faster when you don't.

[Qweerios]

What do you guys think about a couple of Batterskulls without any SFM? Seems to me like it could replace Grave Titan quite beautifuly. It is near-indestructible once you are able to keep 3 mana open, and I think that's what matters the most. Batterskull in a deck with deck sweepers is somewhat similar to a Fleeting Image in a control deck, it never gets dealt with.

[Koby]

I would prefer Baneslayer Angel at the 5 mana mark.

[Tao]

Also you people should really cut GSZ for Living Wish, it lets you move a lot of shitty situational cards like Ooze and Finks and Grave Titan to the board, and lets you run more good cards as four ofs mainboard. Also lets you get Bojuka Bog/Karakas, I dunno what else. I was tinkering with this deck a bit but got discouraged recently. Although Grim Backwoods seems like it might be good.

Living Wish sounds honestly amazing. Never really considered it. GSZ is way stronger in a vacuum but in this Wish might just be better. The Wishboard would probably be like Genesis, Disenchant guy, Shriekmaw, 1-2 Yardhate guys (Ooze, Macabre, Bog), Lifegain guy (Tree of Redemption).

[.dk]

Living Wish sounds honestly amazing. Never really considered it. GSZ is way stronger in a vacuum but in this Wish might just be better. The Wishboard would probably be like Genesis, Disenchant guy, Shriekmaw, 1-2 Yardhate guys (Ooze, Macabre, Bog), Lifegain guy (Tree of Redemption).

another interesting thing about wish, is applications if grafdigger's cage ends up being played everywhere. cage turns off zenith, but not wish - the deck could still play a very effective game with cage out and living wish (or even just tutor for a disenchant dude or whatever).

[from Cairo]

Also you people should really cut GSZ for Living Wish, it lets you move a lot of shitty situational cards like Ooze and Finks and Grave Titan to the board, and lets you run more good cards as four ofs mainboard. Also lets you get Bojuka Bog/Karakas, I dunno what else. I was tinkering with this deck a bit but got discouraged recently. Although Grim Backwoods seems like it might be good.

I don't really think the situational cards are shitty. Cards like Scavenging Ooze and Thrun are usually just pretty solid. Kitchen Finks can be underwhelming, but can also come out in games 2 and 3. The titans are sort of slower to get out, but having them MD at least doesn't add 2 mana to the cost of getting them out. The GSZ package opens up Dryad Arbor for additional acceleration. Living Wish just seems too mana intensive/clunky in a deck that's already slow/very mana intensive. GSZ also encourages the deck to run optimal numbers of Veteran Explorer and Eternal Witness MD, while giving you an additional 4 copies when they're needed to the point they're worth their cost +1.

Green Sun's Zenith also has the perk of being shuffled back into the deck when it resolves, that combined with Explorer/Fetches increases the decks threat density as the game continues.

Grim Backwoods doesn't strike me as very good at all. By the time you hit 5 mana you've got better things to do than tap all of it to sac a Finks or Explorer to draw a card. It seems worse than Phyrexian Tower #2 and/or running a 1-of Volrath's Stronghold. I don't think the deck has room for more than a couple colorless mana sources unless it wants to start cutting into spell slots, and even then Grim Backwoods looks like a Jayemdae Tome, for 5 mana I'd rather be getting something like Skeletal Scrying or Garruk, Primal Hunter.

[Richard Cheese]

For all the cute stuff you can do with Wish here, I think it has a few major disadvantages over GSZ.

First, Spell Snare is everywhere. Second, if your bomb and utility creatures only exist in your board, you depend entirely on resolving wish, and some of those guys are most critical in the control matchup. Or, possibly worse, they just counter your bomb, and then you're pretty boned. Third, a lot of those utliity guys are just fine to draw into. Finally, it's like explorer 5-8.

[waSP]

Couldn't Wish complement GSZ. You run a bunch of 3-ofs main (the green creatures you REALLY want to resolve: Veteran Explorer, Scavenging Ooze, Thrun) with GSZ. You replace your bombs in the main with Living Wish. That doesn't sound too terrible...