[Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)

[waSP]

re: Greenpoe and others-
Tower is good if and only if you are playing this deck as something other than a control deck. If you are not playing the deck as a control deck, a tempo boost is very useful. If you are playing the deck as a control deck, it will not help you in the long game at all and could potentially accelerate your opponent's game plan (or increase their card quality) in the early game to the point where you get overwhelmed.

Are you playing long or are you playing short?

[from Cairo]

This deck is totally built to excel in the mid-late game as a control deck, but versus other control decks the option of blocking to get an Explorers' trigger isn't often available in the early-mid game.

Phyrexian Tower can serve as a 5-6th free sacrifice option for Veteran Explorers in matches where there isn't aggressive ground pressure. For example versus other control decks like Stone Blade, or Countertop Thopters.

At worst Phyrexian Tower is a generic 1 mana producing land, not unlike other control decks' Academy Ruins, Riptide Laboratory, Karakas, etc. What I think makes it more appealing is that it aids the Nic Fit player in reaching mid-late game bombs (casting Planeswalkers, Deeds and popping them, etc Turn 2-4), rather than something like Volrath's Stronghold or Grim Backwoods, that are good when the deck has successfully made it to the mid-late game.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Veteran Explorer is an awful card against other control decks so I don't know why you think that's relevant.

I mean I would submit that if it were actually that important you should run multiples, as it's an early game card. As it is I don't think it's particularly important. Stronghold actually breaks the control matchup, paired with Witnesses. I've never played with the lists running Tower, but I've played against them, and I've yet to be impressed by the card.

waSP is correct with the addendum that this deck is an awful aggro deck, the same reason why GSZ doesn't work and should be cut for Wishes. Legacy decks are simply built to withstand much greater pressure than Kitchen Finks and a lone Scavenging Ooze.

@Arian:

Witness + Therapy is actually fine, it's more just the fact that Therapy tends to be weak g1 so I keep the extras in the board.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

This thread is getting massively derailed by all this shit lately.

Wish and Green Sun's Zenith are both good cards, with their own inherent strengths and drawbacks. The fact remains, however, that if you rely on Wish to get anything that qualifies as a potentially game-winning threat, keeping you from winning the game is about as simple as keeping you from resolving Wish. IBA, I see that as the biggest argument against your list: consistently counter your Wishes, and you're forced to try to win with Witnesses and Garruk tokens (or Witness -> get back Wish -> try for another creature, but honestly, this is a slow line of play). The fact that Zenith gives us redundant copies of Veteran Explorer and Eternal Witness also seems to be a massively under-appreciated facet of the card. It would also be entirely viable to build a list that used both Wish and Zenith, so it's kind of pointless to drag the thread down in some sort of Wish VS. Zenith debate ad infinitum.

Tower is actually a good card in this deck. So is Volrath's Stronghold. Personally, I run both in a lot of builds that I'm testing. I really don't think Grim Backwoods is worth much in Legacy-- by the time it becomes relevant, you'd hope you'd have better ways to spend five mana. It's a logical fallacy to say that we should run 4 Towers if it's so good though, because it's legendary, and not the kind of card you need to see in every game. It's a good safeguard as a way to trigger Explorer in matches where he can't chump, and it can enable some pretty swingy plays, since dumping an Explorer off it gives you four mana (or basically, three more mana than you already had access to.)

Anyway... Just getting a little bored with the redundancy lately.

[Koby]

Just got back from a local GPT (49 peeps). I saw a deck that throw in Valakut/Scapeshift combo in with the basic shell of Explorer/Therapy. He got 12th, and has my mad respect.

Just throwing some ideas out there for brewers.

[Alexeezay]

Hey guys, I thought I'm gonna build this deck for fun because I love Deed & green fatties/planeswalkers. I went 3-2 in a local 29 man Tourney and made 8th place.
I splash Red so the list is kind of diverse.

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun’s Zenith
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Terminate
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Sensei’s Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Skeletal Scrying

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Wall of Blossoms
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Thrun the Last Troll
3 Eternal Witness
1 Grave Titan
1 Broodmate Dragon

2 Garruk Relentless
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter

1 Dryad Arbor
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Forest
2 Mountain
2 Swamp
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Bayou

Sideboard
2 Choke
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
4 Duress
1 Darkblast
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Kitchen Finks

Lightning Bolt was cool. While Bolt's used defensively (early game!), I finished somebody off with 2 Bolts that I found via SDT.
Broodmate Dragon was really good, tutorable via GSZ & blocks Delvers/Cliques!...you would think that isn't important because Broodmate is a finisher, but the U/R Delver matchup can sometimes be tricky.
REB/Pyroblast helped alot, especially against Stifle & Jace.
I feel like I could have won the 2 losses against U/R DelverBurn & BUG Landstill, although Landstill is very hard when you are facing an early Liliana after 2 Mulligans.

Recurring Nightmare seems pretty underwhelming...I will cut it for the 3rd SDT.
I didn't like Terminate, but that was due to the matchups & requires more testing.
Also, Skeletal Scrying is awesome! It saved my ass at least in 2 matches.

[snappingbowls | ಠ_ಠ]

Why is Zenith/Explorer in DTB now? I know there are criteria for this, but i'm newer here and don't know exactly how and why DTB status is attained... Zenith/Explorer hasn't won anything or made an especially big amount of Top 8s recently has it?

I like the deck I'm just surprised to see it in the DTB section.

[Koby]

Why is Zenith/Explorer in DTB now? I know there are criteria for this, but i'm newer here and don't know exactly how and why DTB status is attained... Zenith/Explorer hasn't won anything or made an especially big amount of Top 8s recently has it?

I like the deck I'm just surprised to see it in the DTB section.

Decks to Beat Forum, FIRST THREAD, STICKIED.

[moseby]

Rukus where did you see that list?

---------------------------------

Ran a pretty stock B/G (3 lili's) list at a local tournament 37 peeps going 3-1-2. With my only loss coming from W/U stoneforge agro with giest that had near nut hands both games.

R1 TES: On the play not knowing what I was playing against I kept a good hand vs any agro matchup,and he combo's off T2.

G2. I therapy something he duresses 2x taking hymn and Lili, I top deck witness into lili, and ride her to victory.

G3. He duress me I therapy him we go to time.


R2. I therapy hitting something I flashback he forces, giest + jace get there

G2. I forget but I got pantsed.


R3. I know my opponent, and he is pissed about the MU I ask why, he says I will find out. He is running mono B pox.

He is right it is a terrible MU for him, neither game is terribly close.


R4 Agro U/W/G with giest and zenith
This match is a mess and a source of frustration for the rest of the day. We go to time in game 3. After time he asks me to concede to him as both of use are 1-1-1 and a second tie will bone us both of which I am completely aware. I politely refuse indicating I have every intention of playing out the day. He then asks if I want to roll for the win, and I let him know (should have called the judge) that this is a huge no no. So we take the tie he then proceeds to drop. I politely ask him WTF is he doing? that if he is going to drop why not just concede, I forget his response but he just walks away.

R5. a buddy planning on playing the side event scoops it up to me and we play some boring ass oath on oath action.


R6. U/W blade something I win but am still pissed about round 3

On a side note I played another TES player inbetween rounds, and found storm is not as bad a matchup as one might think, as long as you see a modest amount of hand hate, and get some lucky blind therapies.


I love the deck, and hitting blind therapies is fantastic. My only concerns about the deck is when you have issue with the deck is trying to find a titan, or having one cluttering your opening hand. Hermit almost every time I drop him he dies after I pay the upkeep. I am seriously contemplating running a dungrove elder and changing the manabase to 5 forests 2 swamps to make him more formidable.

[Koby]

There is no list (yet), I saw it when I played during the tournament, then a quick glance at the decklist from the HJ after the tournament.

It uses 4 Burning Wish, 3 Scapeshift, the Explorer/Therapy engine, GSZ for some goodies (Primeval Titan probably), and 2 Valakut. It looked a lot like New Age Lands (thread buried somewhere in New Dev forum) with an added twist from Veteran Explorer paradigm.

[Tao]

oh my, DTB forum *_*

On the deck I am still at red for Punishing Fire because it is good against Jace, Delver, Stoneforge, Maverick, D&T, Dredge and Merfolk. Still not sure about the shell though. Even though IBA's point about Tower is completely off, his point about GSZ forcing you to run a rat's tail of medicore creatures is valid. Drawing into Dryad Arbor, Wickerbough Elder, Hermit or Ooze is usually not impressive. Living Wish is one option, another would be to run only 2 GSZ and severely cut down the GSZ package. Or just keep the 4 GSZ plus package. I am not convinced on one option yet.
Living Wish is good so far. Searching Karakas vs. Reanimator, Bojuka Bog vs. Dredge, Fleshbag Marauder against Fatties and Caldera Hellion against Swarms are options that GSZ does not give.

Since yesterday's Pro Tour and the hype around Huntmaster/ Ravager of the Fells I decided to give it a real try instead of just theory. Should have done it earlier, the card is decent and probably even better than Bloodbraid Elf and Kitchen Finks.

My initial thought was that it would be bad because if you pass the turn to transform it they can out-tempo you but that is not the case. It is already solid just for the CiP ability (especially in a burn meta) so if you know they are full of instants you can simply keep playing your stuff. But if it sticks around it will eventually get value. And if they kill it with spot removal you got a nice bonus life and token. It is also synergetic with Punishing Fire because it gives the ability to pass the turn and play your spells in the opponent's turn. Pass the turn to flip it, then play two Punishing Fires in the opponent's turn to flip it back is a strong play. It is also very good with Recurring Nightmare. Huntmaster needs a bit more testing but so far I am quite impressed by it.

[muscleb]

Wut, DTB! I can't say I am surprised, the deck is pretty good in my experience.

Like Tao, after seeing the Pro Tour I am going to try the huntmaster as well, with the usual suspects of punising grove and broodmate.
I don't think I want to play Living Wish with this deck, it just seems too clunky and slow.

[walker]

I played against the Scapeshift deck. It seems really good against green creature decks. Besides Gaddock Teeg they aren't running much to deal with their killer mountains. I was playing the rock and got served up.

Besides the cards Ruckus mentioned I saw Viridian Emissary and Diabolic Intent.

[xfxf]

Hey guys,

The DTBs are decided according to the monthly stats from thecouncil.es. You can find detailed info in the stickied DTB thread. I was doing some trend analysis on deck performances (sounds like I have a lot of spare time doesn't it? I don't actually ) and noticed that there was a typo in thecouncil (double listing with its pointed divided) and talked to Nihil Credo about it. When you correct the points for Nic Fit you see that it performed well enough to become a DTB last month! :)

There is some surprising info hidden in statistics, I'm thinking about starting a metagame analysis kind of thread if I can come up with substantial material in the following days.

[Qweerios]

After a couple weeks of on-and-off testing, I opted against Titans altogether. 6 CMC drops in general are too much asked in too many matchups. Titans' threat level in the matchups where they are most relevant are easely matched by cards like Eternal Witness, Thrun, and even surpassed by Deranged Hermit. I would gladly take a second Hermit over a Grave Titan in any Nic Fit list.

Also, another point id like to bring up (I discussed it a couple pages back) is how to best fight Jace decks (Stoneblade). Caleb once said something along the lines of:

Our mainboard is strong enough to consistently beat most "fair" decks, therefore our sideboard can be dedicated to beat the more "unfair" decks such as Dredge, Combo, Reanimator, etc..."

While it is true that we can beat most "fair" decks without much help from the sideboard, it isn't entirely true for blue-based control decks. Stoneblade has tools that grant them card advantage and are very difficult to deal with entirely (Snapcaster, SFM, Jace). While we do have ways to match the generated card advantage (Witness, Hymn, Hermit), Stoneblade decks usually dictate the pace of the match because their cards are cheaper and they have more library manipulation. After a few turns of us trading cards for cards, be it spells or permanents, laying down a single Jace puts them in control of the game from that point on. Breaking through a jace is a very difficult task and doesn't rely as much on us having the answers as much as them not having counter-answers. For every Pulse/Vindicate, or Thrun/Hermit we play, they can match with counterspells or removal. The main difference though, is that they have way more manipulation to find those answers than we do. The solution? more answers/threats, and overall better card quality...

With that being said, instead of trying to break through Jace, why not try to trump him? In most of my testing against BUG Control and Stoneblade decks, I found that Jace's worst nightmare are token generators. Dealing with Enchantments and Planeswalkers is near impossible for blue based decks. In most scenarios, Garruk, Primal Hunter trumps Jace. Getting a 3/3 Token every turn is too much pressure on an empty board. Even in cases where the opponent has board superiority (10/10 KotR + Jace), stalling for 3 turns with the tokens to blurt out 5+ 6/6 wurms is too much for Jace to handle on his own while the two players are exchanging removal/disruption.

Here is my actual list:

Creature (10)
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Deranged Hermit

Instant/Sorcery (20)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Vindicate

Artifact/Enchantment (4)
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Pernicious Deed

Planeswalker (4)
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter

Lands (22)
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Plains

Sideboard (15)
2 Damnation
2 Extirpate
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Stony Silence
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Obstinate Baloth


I replaced Grave Titans with Garruk and am currently trying out 2 Liliana > 1 Deed and 1 Top. I am still trying to figure out a way to deal with the new Death and Taxes...

[Tao]

Pithing Needle is the best SB option against UW Stoneforge. Swap Deeds for them post board. Also good vs D&T because 38451 of their cards have at least one activated ability. If you are very worried about D&T and want to keep the white version and the tutor SB you can run 1 damping matrix.

Another option is to run Punishing Fire/Grove. It beats Jace, is very good against Death and Taxes and is solid vs. Stoneforge/Snapcaster. Atm I would say that the Punishing Fire version is the best.

[Lim-Dul]

I am building this deck right now and i have some questions about my list. i have not yet played the deck (just goldfishing)...

Creatures (17)
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Wall of Blossoms
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Eternal Witness
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Academy Rector
1 Thrun, the last Troll
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Deranged Hermit
1 Sun Titan
1 Grave Titan

Enchantment (4)
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring NIghtmare
1 Sylvan Lybrary (maybe Phyrexian Arena)

Artifact (3)
3 Birthing Pod

Instant/Sorcery (13)
4 GSZ
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Sword to Plowshares
2 Maelstrom Pulse

PW (2)
2 Liliana of the Veil

Lands (21)
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Phyrexian Tower (maybe +1 Tower and -1 Plains)
2 Bayou
1 Savanne
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
4 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains


1. Are the rectos really needed? and if yes, are 2 enoughe? any thougths or experinace on the rector/enchantment plan are very wellcome..

2. Are two titans not a bit too much? they force me to mulligan more often..but they just win the game if they hit the board... i would like to cut one, if i find one more good 5-drop to replace a titan..

3. how many towers are needed? if i goldfish the deck, i often miss sca-outlets in the first turns to really get the ramp the explorers provide..

4. How is the creature/pod-package? Did i get the right ones in? :-)


EXCUSE MY ENGLISH!!!

[XdeckX]

Long time lurking this thread because I've been playing the deck for some time now. Thought I'd pitch in.

I'm still running a straigt GB version. List for reference
4 Bayou
1 Savannah
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
2 Grave Titan
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Deranged Hermit
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thrun the Last Troll
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Go for the Throat
2 Dismember
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Phyrexian Arena

SB
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Innocent Blood
4 Thoughtseize
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Pithing Needle
2 Engineered Plague


I recently added the Nighthawk due to the fact that I don't yet own a 2nd copy of Scavenging Ooze. Eventhough it can't be Zenith-ed into play it's performed reasonably well and even won me a match due to it's lifegain and deathtouch.
The singleton Phyrexian Arena has been great eventhough I have to draw into it. Still an open slot though.

There is one card I've been thinking of adding recently: Tree of Redemption.
This deck struggles against Combo (although the GB version is pretty resilient with the Hymns) and Burn (amongst others...)
Against Burn Tree of Redemption is a solid lifegainer. I'm not sure if it's any good against Combo due to the fact that it's pretty slow.

My meta has a descent amount of Combo and I'd really like to improve that matchup even more (if possible) I've tried a set of Leyline of Sanctity or a set of Mindbreak Trap but neither has impressed me. Leyline is a dead draw and I hate having to mulligan into it. Mindbreak Trap is always duressed away when I play combo.


I've been contemplating adding red as a splash color. I love Broodmate Dragon and it would open some interesting sideboard slots (e.g. REB/Pyroblast)
Red also gives you Pyrostatic Pillar which might be an option against Combo (eventhough the deck lacks early game pressure... could be overcome by adding Lightning Bolts to the maindeck)

[Arianrhod]

@Lim-Dul:

I think that for the list you've got there, 2 Rectors is too many. I'd knock that back down to 1. Rector in a Pod list is not the same as Rector in a Rector list. You have ways of tutoring for her, and you only have three options for enchantments with four total. If you want two Rectors, I'd add at least one more enchantment...probably Faith's Fetters to turn them into removal and gain you some life back from Pod.

I'm personally on the 2-Tower plan, which is funny, because my list is probably more controlly than most in this thread. I find that with two Towers and four Therapies, I'm never wanting for a sac outlet. Granted that this is more important for me, considering that I run 3 Rector. For most Nic Fit lists, I think that 1 Tower is probably correct. Individual mileage will vary.

I feel like two Titans is probably the correct number -- something that Qweerios and I have I think agreed to disagree upon. I do feel like you want another 5-drop, though, so it may be in your best interest to trim one of your 6's to smooth out your Pod chains a bit. Ideally I'd say 1 more 5-drop and 1 more 2-drop. 2 twos is a little low, especially given that you have 4 threes and 4 fours. You're also not going to want to Pod out of Ooze that often, so it's like you only have 1 two. I feel like there needs to be a Qasali Pridemage in there somewhere, because you're running Sun Titan. The synergy there is definitely something worth keeping in mind.

I feel like we should have a comprehensive primer, now that we're in the DTB forum. The deck's changed in many ways since Tao last updated it, and I think that we're now up to 10(!) versions:

GB Straight
GB Abyssal (is anyone playing this anymore?)
GBW No Rector
GBW Rector
GBU Gifts Ungiven
GBR Punishing Fire
GBR Scapeshift (that Rukcus saw)
GBr Splash
GBx Birthing Pod
GBx Living Wish

Since each person that started working in this thread in July/August has ended up in a different place, I think it would be cool to have each of those people write up a blurb with latest decklist, card choices and options, etc for their specific version. Then Tao can combine them to be a new primer.

[Richard Cheese]

Here are a couple lists that did particularly well and therefore might be worth checking out:

1. 7th of 240. GBw with 4x Liliana of the Veil, Sun Titan, Grave Titan
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...8&iddeck=54695

2. 8th of 247. GBW, Master of the Wild Hunt, Sun Titan, Elspeth, Garruk Relentless, Liliana...only 3 Explorers.
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...6&iddeck=54471

Personally I've been having issues with RUG Tempo. Deed is super great against them, but forcing it through Stifle, counters, and 1000 cantrips is difficult at best.