I would like to challenge this notion. I did some testing today with a tempo build of the deck and found that Thoughtseize might just be better than Hymn right now.Originally Posted by aznepyon7
Why? Well we are seeing lots of decks that rely on resolving a specific sequence of plays. Hierarch -> KotR. SfM -> Batterskull. Any combo deck's enabler -> Win. Against opposing control decks, it grants you information as well as plucking out their big play/removal/counterspell.
The other not-so-irrelevant fact is that plenty of decks run Spell Snare and/or Daze, against which Hymn is often just a dud play. The card advantage can also become irrelevant over time as soon as a U/x build hits enough mana to start Snappcastering back its removal.
Late game, the point is either moot (both players in topdeck mode) OR seize is better because you can get rid of their removal pre-emptive to your deployment of another threat.
I could arguably see Inquisition of Kozilek being in place of 'seize or as a 2/2 or 3/1 split, but aside from burn decks the life loss is mostly irrelevant. Thoughtseize is not typically a card used to support a late game strategy, and hence why I would run it with a build running Delver.
If you go wayyyyyy back to the beginning of this thread and look at the discussion there, Sinkhole was originally being played over Hymn as a way to supplement the stifle/daze/wasteland plan. As the format progressed to having a lot of Aether Vial decks and other faster creature decks, Sinkhole became bad and was dropped in favor of Hymn. THEN, when Spell Pierce was printed, people either dropped Thoughtseize or Hymn in favor of that card to go along with the mana denial strategy.
Today we have plenty of new toys that contribute to the deck's original game plan of disruption backed by fast beats. Delver's success is undeniable in RUG builds, and I think Thoughtseize can complement this fast tempo strategy better than the random nature of Hymn.
Obviously more testing needs to be done, and there's no denying that a t2/3 Hymn can be absolutely busted. But I don't think Hymn is a sacred cow that can't be considered up for the chopping block.
wcm8, my current TA list, I also dropped Delvers in favor of Cliques. There were games where I land an early Delver and it never flipped until 4 or 5 turns after. By then, it was too late. Or sometimes after I land an early Delver only to get killed.
My current list looks like this:
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Inquisition of Koziliek
2 Dismember
2 Ghastly Demise
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
9 Fetchlands
I lowered Ponder count because most of the time, I end up trying to dig for answers to creatures or counters to protect my dudes. So I end up using Inquisition of Kozilek and just ripped whatever they have from their hand instead.
The list seems fine, I'm assuming the other 4 cards are stifles? (You have only 56 cards listed)
If you are playing a list that is slightly slower, I would strongly consider running at least 1 or 2 Maelstrom Pulse to hit anything that slips through your wall of counterspells/discard.
Delver is certainly a frustrating card -- at times it either wins the game completely on its own, or is a terrible topdeck/doesn't flip for 5 turns like you said. But I think its power is undeniable and can be best supported in a list running plenty other tempo options, especially 1CMC targeted discard. I am testing a list dropping Hymn entirely in favor of Thoughtseize, and so far I am really liking it.
I'm trying to shy away from the tempo version of TA seeing how that isn't as effective as RUG and that the tempo version has a harder time against popular decks in the meta such as Maverick. I incorporated 2 Jaces and a Library for better game mid-range and dropped some faster stuff. Because of the addition of Jace and the potential for Cliques, I don't think running 4 Dazes is a good idea. I would probably go down to 3. Spell Pierces/Snares are getting more enticing.
If a Hymn were to be cut for a T1 discard, I can see that as a viable option (though I'm still skeptical) but I don't like the idea of replacing it with a counter. Unfortunately there needs to be a way to up the blue count to at least 18. I'm not a fan of stifles and kinda iffy about Delver. I'd also like to keep the Ponder count at no higher than 3. Jaces can be sacked early game if need be but I'd much rather not.
I'm also not planning to run Liliana. There's just not enough room and I don't know what to take out. Adding another higher costing card doesn't help the situation.
Unless I'm counting wrong, you have a blue count of 16. You really need at least 18 for a consistent FoW. That's one reason I run Delver - to have a higher blue count. Maintaining a high enough blue count is a problem for TA unless you're running stifles and 3+ Ponders.
My tempo list for reference:
20 lands
4 Goyf
4 Delver
3 Tombstalker
4 FoW
4 Daze (1 could be cut for a Sylvan Library or maybe even Life from the Loam, not sure)
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize
2 Dismember
2 Ghastly Demise (could arguably be a different removal, but having more answers to a T1 Delver/Lackey/Mom is crucial)
2 Liliana otV
SB:
2 Massacre
2 Submerge
2 Pernicious Deed (this mix of removal handles Maverick effectively)
3/4 Spell Pierce
(possible 1 Umezawa's Jitte)
5/6 Graveyard Hate (mixture of Extirpate, Spellbomb, Crypt, Fae Macabre)
This deck is just as aggressive as RUG, and for the most part has a better Maverick matchup, especially thanks to the SB options. I also think it is better against UW Blade thanks to Thoughtseize. Combo should be a walk in the park for the most part. Slightly overloading on GY hate means you shouldn't punt to those matchups, and a mixture of hate allows you to bring in the best option when you don't need _all_ of it (eg. Extirpate vs. combo decks/thopters/Loam)
Liliana is tailor-made for this deck. Her +1 puts constant pressure on the opponent's hand, as well serving utility as a removal spell. Going forward, I don't think I would play a control deck with black in it without running her because she is just that damn good and can steal games.
Opps....yes, the other 4 cards forgot to add were Stifles.
Guys, i want to hear your opinion about delver of secrets?
All 3 days i test him, but he is so weak in team america (i tested against various tier 1, 1.5, 2.0 decks). I mean, he can be good ONLY in certain situation and most of the times he is siting on the table and do NOTHING. He is for sure agressive card that forces you to build your deck around it, but team america is not that kind of "agressive" deck - he is not so good like in RUG or U/R (he abuses RED much better than other colors, better to say). He's awfull, to situational and conditional and i don't know why so much people forced him in team america - probably because he is new flavor in tempo decks... but in BUG tempo decks it doesn't work. I don't know what i'm playing wrong, but i'm trying to play typical aggro/control/tempo strategy which i used to play with standard list (goyfs, tombstalkers, stifles, dazes, snares, fow, hymn, ponders, removals, wastelands...) but delver simply is not the "guy". Even in matchups where we have good chance of winning, now i loose to them. Something is wrong, or just i don't have luck?
Try my list I just posted. Using Thoughtseize instead of Hymn helps Delver get there more often. Just trying to roll with 4 Goyf/4 Stalker seems sub-optimal in the current metagame (too much flashbacked removal among other things), and I think until they print a better option the best choices are Delver, Clique, or Snapcaster.
Don't worry, i tried with thoughtseizes and hymns. It doesn't work. I had better results with goyfs/stalker/clique/snapcaster combination creatures than delver in my 60 cards. Much better results. I can understand that people love to play him, but i will stay away from it. It doesn't fit in deck. I really don't see point why we would force him to play because "meta play more removals" when he's bad on his own. He is bomb with red, but not good enough for our kind of deck even if both decks looks similar to each other. That's from my experience.
I've always liked thoughtseize over hymn and still do. If you don't have significant pressure, the tempo loss from paying 2 mana to do what hymn does is too much. Hymning on an empty board with this deck is awful. You aren't trying to play an attrition game, hence the lack of bobs. Not to mention how bad it can be when you draw it vs. dredge/reanimator, a spot where thoughtseize is incredible. It might be slightly worse vs very redundant decks like GW maverick, but I think you are better off addressing those with your sideboard. I'm not even sure it is worse there anyway.
As for delver, I haven't played with it but I can easily see it not being good enough. This discussion has been had many times with the low number of creatures in the deck, people want to play more so that you don't have those games where you are without a threat. The problem has always been that you need the creatures to hit really hard and do a lot, since so much of the deck is disruption and there's no actual card advantage. Haven't tested personally with delver but if it wasn't good enough for this particular deck, it wouldn't surprise me.
I'm still up in the air about what is the best creature configuration, but a 3/2 flyer attacking on t2 is no joke when its backed up by disruption. Goyf and Tombstalker provide nothing aside from a clock (and occasionally defense), and the absolute earliest either of them will start swinging is on turn 3. Delver is just another beater than can come out swinging faster than the other two. If he ends up eating an StP, that's usually fine because it will just be replaced by a bigger monster.
Because this deck isn't really looking to win a long game, Snapcaster isn't always that good. Clique is sometime great, but suffers from costing 3 mana -- this makes it more of late-game card for this deck since you typically want to be aggressive with your Wastelands and/or might not even have 3 lands out besides.
Delver is obviously best played on turn 1 and gets progressively less useful the longer the game goes on (much like Stifle and Daze). Perhaps the deck would be better playing a split of Delver/Clique, perhaps 2/2 or 3/1. I'm really not sure, because to be honest
I've had success with all sort of different configurations.
I'm kind of confuse what cards to use now. The deck list that I previously posted felt pretty bad after hours of play testing against my friend's Reanimator deck. Prior to that, my deck list was this: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...5&iddeck=54283 and I beat the pants off Reanimator easily. Maybe I'll just go back to that list and lowered land count to 19 to add the 4th Ponder in to increase the chance of Delver flipping.
The key to beating reanimator is actually playing a decent sideboard for it. I've skimped on gy hate in the past and it sometimes ends up being a huge mistake. With so many grave strategies in tier 1 and tier 2 decks these days, I think a minimum of 4 hate cards going into an unknown field is essential. I'm playing 6 slots (2 extirpate, 2 faeries macabre, 2 nihil spellbomb, in addition to 3 spell pierce) in my SB right now and it's been great to feel like these matchups are auto-byes. As with any combo deck though, sometimes they can just get a nuts unbeatable hand.
I've kind of reversed my opinion on Delver again. I did some additional testing tonight with some friends playing decks I hadnt tested against in a while and Delver was very underwhelming. I'm cutting them again for 3 Cliques and the 4th Ponder. Clique is doing a lot of duty these days by smashing UW Blade and helping a lot vs. combo. It's a card that, to me, seems very well positioned right now as a way to deal with Batterskull and/or Jace.
Thoughtseize and Liliana were still great though. Unless the metagame shifts significantly before then, I don't think I'll be playing Hymn to Tourach at GP Indianapolis. Seize just seems so much better at fighting opposing tempo and control strategies.
What's your current list at the moment? So instead of considering 3 Hymns, you're just going to remove them all?
I think one of the good (or bad) thing about TA is that you can kind of hybrid it to BUG control and change how the deck runs immensely.
I try to do so with 2 Jaces and a Sylvan library. It's been pretty good so far but I would like to change it up a bit. I might take out the Delvers to add in 2 Cliques, a land, and maybe a Liliana. Don't know. Any suggestions? Land count is 21 btw. Spell Pierces are also on the table.
Is Liliana really ever better than jace?
To clarify, obviously in a given situation it can be, but I mean overall.
In a meta full of Wastelands, Stifles, Aggro/Tempo decks? Yes. The 4 casting cost is a big liability. I float around 21-22 lands to run 2 Jaces in my hybrid TA.
Liliana provides constant pressure and removal a turn earlier which can be essential in tempo to get in that final hit with Goyf or TS without dying. I'd rather run Liliana than Jace against combo (unless my blue count is so low I need to pitch Jace to FoW, but that hasn't happened...).
@Nathan:
Instead of a 4th Ponder, have you tried Sylvan Library? That card is simply awesome and I have been tempted many a times to add in a second. I only run 3 Ponders and 1 Sylvan and I'm much happier than with 4 ponders. Besides library can give you advantage even into mid-game and is very consistent with Delver.
In this deck, I'd argue that she is better and fits in more naturally.
Costing 3 vs. 4 is HUGE in a deck that is low on lands to begin with, and is also utilizing Daze and Wasteland. If you want to play Jace, naturally the rest of the deck should follow suit and a lot of the 'tempo' cards don't really mesh well with a strategy looking to get into the late-game. With Liliana, you can still keep the basic 20-land mana base and not struggle to cast her in most situations.
Plus, TA typically lacks late-game bomb cards, so what is Jace really going to brainstorm you into... Stifle? Daze? In this deck, Jace seems like a win-more type of card and doesn't really synergize with the overall strategy.
Now, a Jace or two in the board is a different story. I think if you want to run him MD you will need to do some significant reconfigurations and end up with a list more along the lines of BUG Control.
Regarding my recent switch from Hymn to Thoughtseize:
Hymn to Tourach
+: can be utterly back-breaking in the early turns, especially if the opponent mulliganed. Most decks can't recover from the 'Hymn, Hymn, I win' sequence. Makes the Burn matchup winnable.
-: random nature can make it randomly terrible instead of randomly awesome. A huge liability if you accidentally play it into a Reanimator player (TA, ANT, various UBx control and Reanimator decks often have the same T1 sequence of plays, so it can be an honest mistake against an unknown opponent). It costs two so is more susceptible to Daze, Spell Pierce, and obviously Spell Snare. It also has tension when you're holding stifle -- ideally you want to cast hymn early, but you also want to be able to cast stifle.
Thoughtseize
+: Almost always great turn 1 play, especially if you're not holding stifle. Even better if you have Daze too. Often better than Hymn if you're on the draw since you can pre-empt their T2 play, and typically better than Hymn on the play if you're against an opposing tempo deck. Barring opposing counter magic, will generally always get you what you want, when you want. Often ensures that the way is clear to start deploying threats. Especially good versus Stoneforge Decks (either you get their SFM pre-emptively, or take their batterskull, leaving them with a Squire. Or you can get their Snapcaster before they can cast it or they have any useful targets.) Still useful against Graveyard-based decks.
-: -2 Life can be relevant (but still worth it over Inquisition if your meta has Jace/FoW/Batterskull/etc). Doesn't provide actual card advantage, though it is fantastic in matchups where card quality matters.
Both cards are great, and either is an acceptable choice. I've just been liking the pin-point nature of Thoughtseize better.
I've tried it. But being a singleton, I don't rely on it helping me in the mid-game. But it is obviously good if I can get it out. So instead, I play a little more removal spells. This also increased my instant/sorcery count, to increase chance of Delver-flipping goodness.
Agree....my exact reason for cutting out Jace. Even though, there were situations were Jace was needed when my Reanimator opponent got out Iona for black and puts me in a tough situation.
wcm8, have you tried 19 lands with the Delver build? Being the 3cc drop is our highest cost and we only have 2 of them in the deck. I'm actually thinking about it.
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