Agreed. Btw, I knew where you were coming from, I was just putting in my two cents. I'm starting to think we should just ignore it. If we wait to set-up for Memory's Journey or Purge, they're prepared to back their Extract up with a counter. And if we do have an early Journey or Purge, it's via flashback which they'll obviously just play around. So in that aspect, agreed. Ignore or Wraith seems like the best options.. and I'm opting for ignore.
Kindly check the list that's being referred to - I believe that Phantasmagorian was not part of the list.Originally Posted by Final Fortune
Kind Regards,
jares
It's irrelevant, all Imp/Tribe lists had 2 Dread Return with or without dedicated Dread Return targets or Phantasmagorians regardless, you don't need to add the 20+ draw spell and turn Dread Return into a high variance 1x. The deck needs threat density for when it doesn't draw lands.
I run a list with no DR targets MD, and only 1 DR. In game two, when I expect Extraction, I just add 1 or 2 DR and some targets (usually just 1 or 2). I also exchange Firestorm for TTribe (I play Firestorm MD, meta choice) in order to get more bodies.
This seemed better in my experience... fighting Extraction with Purge-like effects, specially against Blue, is just a terrible plan.
I'm afraid that you miss the point entirely. This was not a declaration that you should play just 1x Dread Return, much less an evaluation of the card and its interactions. This was a statement that simply said that "I would personally cut the 2nd DR", and that doing so won't make it much worse for his main deck DR targets because he has none anyway.
The funny thing is that I actually agree with everything that you stated- except that it's misdirected towards a personal preference that's unarguable because, well, it's a personal preference!
I hope that that helps clear things up.
Cheers,
jares
So yesterday I wound up playing to a 3-1 record on the day and good enough for 3rd place in a twenty man event. Because I will be going to the Open this weekend, I was looking to try something a little spicy in the sideboard, but was more concerned with finding and purposely wanting my opponents to exploit faults in the list I ran so they can be retroactively corrected.
For reference, here is the list I opted to run:
[4x] Lion's Eye Diamond
[4x] Putrid Imp
[4x] Breakthrough
[4x] Narcomoeba
[4x] Golgari Grave-Troll
[4x] Stinkweed Imp
[4x] Bridge from Below
[4x] Cabal Therapy
[4x] Ichorid
[4x] Faithless Looting
[3x] Golgari Thug
[2x] Dread Return
[1x] Careful Study
[1x] Flame-Kin Zealot
[4x] Gemstone Mine
[4x] City of Brass
[4x] Cephalid Coliseum
[1x] Undiscovered Paradise
//Sideboard
[4x] Nature's Claim
[4x] Street Wraith
[2x] Ancient Grudge
[2x] Coffin Purge
[1x] Purify the Grave
[1x] Ray of Revelation
[1x] Iona, Shield of Emeria
I opted to diversify the hate in the sideboard and see how Street Wraith would operate under the pretense I would be playing against Surgical Extraction, which I did not ironically run into (typically a few players packing it in their sideboards there). However, all of my wins were blowout rounds, with a lone defeat to RUG Delver and some loose keeps games one and two.
One of my favorite plays was against Burn, where I managed to dump all four Bridges into my graveyard (with him tapped out his turn one in game two) and me double-Dread Returning two Ichorids to make eight tokens on my end step, in addition to the already four that were in play. I didn't have a Flame-Kin Zealot at that point, and figured if he ripped Crypt or something stupid I would at least be able to hammer him for thirty damage the following turn. They could have been Pyroclasm'd or something to that effect but I had seen his hand with Therapy and figured having lethal on board was more important than succumbing to hate.
One thing I am greatly considering is running two Careful Study. I think it really operates well under a lot of circumstances and I think one of the most overlooked aspects of cards like Looting and Study is that you can find anti-hate, LED, or draw spells with them, which is ridiculously good. It's not something Breakthrough can do all the time, and I was thoroughly impressed with it. I only ran one, but wound up casting it three times on the day. I think two would be about the right number here - maybe in cutting one Looting. I still don't think that's a good idea, because you want to maximize your LED's potential in starting draws.
It's possible I'll cut a Dread Return and shift one to the sideboard, but I'm also not sure on that yet either. It's such a tempting card when you can cast it and generates an overwhelming advantage in a hurry.
Also, I had no issues running four Ichorids yesterday; none what so ever. We all know how explosive this deck can be, and sometimes all you need is one or two to get the ball rolling with tokens and some damage, but you should have one or two more as an insurance policy against Swords and the like. It's just so much fun watching my opponents kill their own dudes to knock off my Bridges. That's where Ichorid truly shines.
As for Street Wraith's effectiveness, it was good in some random circumstances, but ultimately fell short of what I expected. I think any good opponent would forgo Extracting your dredgers and would probably (and should probably) go for Bridge from Below or Narcomoeba. Hitting a dredger just seems bad and with all of the draw effects the deck possesses, it's not like you can't dump more dudes in the graveyard.
I'll look more into it later, but yeah.
Last edited by Michael Keller; 02-16-2012 at 06:59 PM.
I think that if you build a non-LED list (e.g. because you don't own LED like I do) you should focus on the ability to flashback Looting as reliably as possible.
Here's my proposal:
Lands:
4 City
4 Citadel
4 Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
Graveyard:
1 Dread Return
4 Therapy
4 Bridge
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Troll
4 S.Imp
3 Thug
Enablers/Business:
4 Looting
4 Study
4 Breakthrough
4 P.Imp
Sideboard:
3 Grudge
1 Iona
1 Wispmare
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Firestorm
2 Ashen Ghoul
- 16 lands in order to maximize the chance of having 3 lands
- good thing of Looting/Study is that they dig for more lands while also enabling dredging T1
- 2 Ashen Gouls against Extraction (against decks with Extraction i normally board in 2 Ashen Ghouls and Iona to increase the threat density and board out 1 Ichorid and other stuff)
- Firestorm mainly against Ooze which has been a pain in the ass often enough in my test matches
To flashback Looting as reliable as possible, you have to run LED.
I also think Looting will make LED Dredge superior now as you will still be able to transform into noLED postboard without any problems.
Team SPOD
<Der_imaginäre_Freund> props:
Adan for being the NQG God (drawer)
You are quoting my first sentence, but it seems that you haven't read it though :P
I am well aware of the fact that LED is best at casting Looting reliably, but i make a proposal for a non-LED list.
Yeah, it's hardly a question of meta-game anymore. LED/Looting Dredge has old LED-Dredges speed with the consistency of non-LED. Once again, I like your build Hollywood. I run an even split between Breakthrough and Careful study, because Careful is more of a utility card than Breakthrough, for the very reasons you gave. If you want to fit another Careful Study in, how about removing one Ichorid? You can just put it in your side if you find the fourth one that essential.. I'm currently running three, and find it very consistent as most builds are skimping on Thugs, which is crucial fodder for Ichorid. Also, thanks for the update on Street Wraith. I've been hesitant to even test it, let alone play it. As I said early, I'm probably going to ignore Extraction, as far as my side is concerned, come SCG Open time. Good luck at the Open!
Don't forget to SB for reaninmator, It got the lootings boost too. There is no shortage of dredge and reanimator decks at the big tournies, I assure you.
i think going forward, trimming the breakthroughs is where its at. I am down to 2. Leds and breakthroughs often get sideboarded out for antihate.
MD 4xCareful Study is mandatory if you want to be able to play thru' hate like Leyline of the Void and Grafdigger's Cage reliably, and I feel like Breakthrough and Lion's Eye Diamond are essentially the same card with Lion's Eye Diamond accelerating the deck's fundamental turn and Breakthrough increasing consisteny. One of the primary differences between the two cards tho' is that you don't have to SB out Breakthrough nearly as often as you have to SB out Lion's Eye Diamond and Breakthrough is a better card to have in your hand when the deck "stalls" vs Surgical Extraction on your first Dredger.
Several people have PMed me for my list, so I'm just going to post it here.
MD
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Tarnished Citadel
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
4 Narcomoeba
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
2 Sphinx of Lost Truths
1 Flame Kin Zealot
SB
4 Nature's Claim
3 Chain of Vapor
4 Street Wraith
4 Nether Shadow
I've given up on trying to beat Storm and Reanimator with my MD and SB and refocused my MD on consitency and my SB on being able to deal with Leyline of the Void and Grafdigger's Cage reliably and being as resistant as possible vs Snapcaster Mage and Surgical Extraction with Street Wraith nullifying Surgical Extraction on dredgers and Nether Shadow adding redundancy vs Surgical Extraction on Ichorid. I feel pretty confident in either being able to answer the odd Tormod's Crypt and Relic of Progenitus with either Nature's Claim or just straight forward dredging with Street Wraith and Nether Shadow (I SBed out the 11th land for the 4th Street Wraith whenever I SB out Breakthrough and the Sage/FKZ package)
@ Final Fortune:
That list is interesting, but a few things worry me.
I understand if your goal is to dodge all kinds of inteactions your opponents might have pre board with your list. But unlike manaless Dredge, I don't actually think that your list does this so much better than a stock LEDless list with discard dorks. Yo run only 12 Dredgers, don't have Street Wraith or Nether Shadow MD, the only difference is that you took out the discard dorks and additional lands and added the Phantas and a DR package.
I might be wrong, but apart from Phantasmagorian a usual LEDless list should DDD just as well as your list, and if your hand isn't usually full of graveyard-relevant stuff (like in Manaless), Phantasmagorian isn't really needed as badly for the DDD plan.
Then you play 12 draw spells, which can very well be countered. I see that you only cast them if the path is clear, but again, most Dredge lists can do that anyway. Only that your list can't even choose to go the fast route, and while you might dodge some permission, you might just get run over by Batterskulls or flipped Delvers.
I don't want to hate on your list by any means. I just thought that you justify your omission of the discard dorks with a list that dodges permission so well. But without the added DDD potential of Street Wraith and Nether Shadow, I feel like your list doesn't really go after that plan. I see arguments for hybrid (or even manaless) lists, but somehow yours looks much more like a usual LEDless that DDDs a bit better, but which loses the potential to be explosive and just outrace opposing Combo decks or simply fast decks with SFM, Delver, Ooze and all kinds of stuff. Seems like a bad trade for me...
Seems to me that ignoring Extraction and Reanimator decks all together when building a sideboard is not the right way to go. Reanimator is a dtb because its popular and unless your local meta doesn't see any reanimator players, then I would advise to board for them.
Extraction is probably the most popular type of hate atm because it can go into any deck. Again I would do something to circumvent the effectiveness of the card whether it be by diversifying your threats or what have you.
I'm actually going to try some weird tech based on my local meta. I won't bother posting until I actually see results.
Side Surgical Extraction to combat Surgical Extraction..
I've actually tried something similar in the LEDless list below:
After testing this list, though, I've found that being able to Flashback Faithless Looting using lands is ok, but it isn't really something that you would want to be doing, considering that 25% of your lands are composed of a more powerful version of Faithless Looting (Cephalid Coliseum). In my testing, having that option does help in tight situations, so that's definitely a good thing. I'm unsure, though, of whether or not building the deck around that premise would be wise. I personally have been considering cutting the 16th land on that list in favor of another Dredger.
Kind Regards,
jares
Okay, just reposting this because it seems to have been passed over due to the talk of SW being boarded vs extraction and I would like some input on the list.
Okay, as I mentioned earlier, I really think Hollywood is on to something by increasing the number of threats in the deck. I felt like it did not have enough draw effects, and have been tweaking it and trying several ideas, and this is what I have come up with.
Dredgers
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
Creatures
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
3 Nether Shadow
Draw Spells
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
Other Graveyard Goodies
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
1 Dread Return
Other
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
Lands
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
Sideboard
4 Chain of Vapor
3 Firestorm
4 Breakthrough
1 Dread Return
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Angel of Despair
Now, this is a huge step into uncharted territories for me, because I'm not only not playing with FKZ main, but I'm only playing with ONE DR! I feel like this deck should be able to grind out any match up, and is explosive enough to compete with storm game one by therapying away their hand quickly enough, then recurring lethal damage next turn.
Basically, I feel like Breakthrough is a card that is not needed in the main for most match ups. We have enough draw outlets with basicly 12 careful studies that breakthrough is for the most part overkill and I feel that the 4 slots are better used as +3 Nether Shadow +1 Ichorid
The maindeck and board are completely untested (outside of goldfishing), so suggestions are most definitely welcome.
That's Doctor to you. Dr. Edge.
@Dr.Edge kid
I like your list. I'm actually playing the same main deck except of the nether shadows and -1 Golgari thug.
Instead i play four (4) Street wraiths. I came to the conclusion, to cut breakthrough is the thing we should do. The 8 studies should be enough. I just play the street wraith to have the chance to get them in my opening seven. The advantage with street wraith against breakthrough is, that you have a draw spell, that can be exiled for ichorids in the graveyard.
While i'm looking at your list, this could be nice with nether shadows.
If i play with shadows and +1 thug, i think i will play street wraith in the sideboard against surgical exctraction. ( Instead of playing Breakthrough in the board.
Did you already tested your list? If yes, how do you feel with lesser creatures in the grave to get back the shadows?
Then to the sideboard. How is Chain of Vapor a better choice instead of Nature's Claim?
I was already thinking about it, but i don't know what could be better.
Let's compare this two cards:
Nature's Claim:
+ Nature's claim can destroy your opponents hate directly.
- Costs green mana ( bad with coliseum )
+/- Your opponent gets 4 life ( This can be bad in some situation, but shouldn't be a big problem)
Chain of Vapor:
+ Nice against reanimator ( Bounce creatures like Elesh-Norn )
+/- Can also bounce hate, but if you don't have a therapy left, they will play it again ( except of leyline maybe )
- They can sacrifice a land to bounce you DR targets or creatures.
- blue mana ( can be cast with coliseum )
At any rate, i forgot some points! If you want, say me what, i will add it.
There are some advantages and disadvantages with this two cards.
But i think Chain of Vapor is the right answer, IMO. Because you should always have a therapy in your grave.
And the most important thing is, that you can cast it with every land you have.
Please tell me if i'm wrong with my opinion. I am open to any criticism or disagreement.
K1w1
My colors are... ZONK!
You haven't any colors. You play Dredge.
You love games, which are unfair. You hate Reanimator & NicFit.
At good days, you destroy everything. At bad days,
you draw Narcomoebas. But the most important thing:
Everybody hates you!
LEDless Dredge is no more explosive than Hybrid Dredge, if you resolved your Imp/Tribe and your draw spell you'll be in the same position as Hybrid Dredge if it had DDDed and resolved your draw spell except you'll always be on the draw instead. Playing blindly into Force of Will or Wasteland is exactly what permits cards like Delver of Secrets to race you, because you've set yourself up for a double Time Walk before you can DDD or you cut yourself off of mana to cast your draw. Phantasmagorian completely mitigates counter magic and Wasteland, and counter magic is far more prevalent than graveyard hate. Your deck is inherently stronger with Phantasmagorian than without it, your DDD, your dredges, your starting hands all increase in value.
Whether or not you choose to emphasize Phantasmagorian with draw spells, a Dread Return package or Nether Shadow/Ashen Ghoul game 1 is irrelevant because your strategy converges games 2 and 3. You can remove the MD Dread Return package and replace it with SB Street Wraiths or Nether Shadow/Ashen Ghoul, or you can just play with Firestorm or Lion's Eye Diamond. The core strategy is just to protect your DDD from counter magic and your manabase from Wasteland in exchange for "explosiveness" that's either unnecessary vs. aggro or dubious vs Storm. Dredge needs to do what it does and it needs to do what it does well, beat Island.dec while cheating vs aggro.dec Trying to beat Storm, even with LED and the initiative, is just a pipe dream. Likewise my logic vs. Reanimator is that you shouldn't be playing Dredge in any metagame where Reanimator exists, and if you dedicate any SB slots vs. Reanimator and Reanimator dedicates SB slots for either the mirror or you then you lose the match regardless - so why bother? The best we can do is hope that the presence of Reanimator skews the SB hate towards Surgical Extraction and Faerie Macabre so the aggro-control decks can deal with Reanimator, we can deal with the aggro-control decks and Reanimator (and/or Storm) can deal with us and we all just free-roll aggro.
As far as Imp/Coliseum is concerned, what really concerns me about your guys' arguments against Phantasmagorian and for Imp/Coliseum is that you guys always seem to draw 1 of 9 golden lands to cast the damn thing. I ALWAYS get to play with Phantasmagorian, you guys ONLY get to play with Putrid Imp 70% of the time. I was even playing Lion's Eye Diamond over Breakthrough because it gave me additional mana sources to resolve Faithless Looting, I have no idea how you are luck sacking these perfect hands on such sketchy mana bases so often.
I think chain is better because otherwise you just have no outs for elesh norn
In the feldman (zero anti hate in the sb) build i just side winds of change for reanimator because you want to be able to combo them out before they can drop norn.
If you run led you can probably do this even faster
I still think the fearless philosophy is decent becausr i have never been leylined and everything else can be played around
But you guys might have had different experiences etc
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